PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Writing Songs

How do you guys go about writting songs. I have a very limited knowledge of chord theory, and can't figure out what chords whould go good with a meoldy. A lot of you seem to be able to shell out a song every day.

You'll probably need to up your game on chord theory and lyric creation with a bit of study. There are tons of songwriting and chord structure books out there. Author Robin Frederick has a fairly comprehensive group of books on the subject. Check her out on Amazon.com or FB:

Robin Frederick

Wow... this is a huge topic. But for starters.....

Having a basic knowledge of music theory is useful. Stuff like this: Knowing that in a given key... lets use the key of C major..... C is the root or also known as the 1 (ONE). A very basic song would normally have a chord set that can be used easily. In C, you can also use the 4 chord or F, and the 5 chord G, all using the scale of C major. So with 3 chords....C, F & G, you can write a simple song.

As you work with this you will just "feel" where the chord are going to be and what they are. Knowing that you only have 3 to choose from makes the process a bit easier.

As you do this, and get better, you will notice that there are generally patterns they follow.

Knowing the theory, 1,4,5 for example.... you can then take that same pattern and apply it to any key.

Theory is a vast and extremely deep subject. Like so many interesting subjects, you need to build a good basic foundation to really understand and appreciate the things that come later at the deeper levels. I'd suggest a basic beginners theory book for starters. And as a writer, you really don't need to have a thorough knowledge of theory to write songs.

Knowing the scales, major and minor, and the relation between the 1,4,5 progression that is used in so many blues and rock songs, as well as knowing what other chords can go well in the world of 1,4,5...such as using the 6 minor, is a good place to start your understanding.

Start by listening to songs that you like and try deconstructing them. Reverse engineer them. See how the writer put them together and use that as a guide to building your own originals.

All this is well and good, but a good song doesn't come from the head and a good understanding of music theory, it comes from the heart and having a basic understanding of music theory simply helps you to get it from the heart to the audible form for others to enjoy.

To add to Herb, I posted some lessons and tips on this already in the Beginner's Forum. You may want to book mark Beginner's Forum.

The first link below will take you to Gary Ewer's site. His entire collection of books is about 35 bucks, but worth it if you want to learn chord progressions. He also has many free lessons on his website.

In the second link, I explain the basics of the pop chord progression.

Last, you should just go to style picker and open up a bunch of demos and study the chord progressions. After a while you will get it.

But, by the various sources I have mentioned, you have to master what:

I (C) ii (dm or dm7) iii (em or em7) IV (F) V (G) vi (am or am7) and VIIdim (Bdim) and I (C--back to root)---in the key of C as the example here---mean in every key, and how they relate to songwriting.

There are no shortcuts.

Secrets of Songwriting with Gary Ewer

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=380528#Post380528


Chord Entry Lesson #1

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378483#Post378483

Yes... good points David.

Also,,,, besides getting a basic music theory book, get a few on the art of songwriting. There are thousands of songwriting books on the market.

I have this one (among others) Six steps to songwriting success by Jason Blume. It's a good book on the art of crafting a song and some about the business as well... It covers song structure, lyrics and melody. Practically any book by someone who has successfully written songs and explains how they do it, would be a good addition to your library.

Get some education, but don't allow that educational process to get in the way of actually writing songs. Remember, don't write from the head..... write from the heart.

you may find helpful info from these links
songwriting tips and techniques

I honestly think the simplest way is going to hooktheory.com.

You check check out how thousands of songs are constructed withOUT knowing theory. You can simply look for how songs you like "look" and see patterns...even if it's just by color.

It also allows you to plug in chords from songs you like, and since you don't know what those may be, chances are some songs you like are already done. Plug those in, play with the timing a bit. Use some of the same notes (it actually allows you to stay within a key automatically) and have some fun!

You will start by making music. To me that has been fundamental in learning. My kids were writing songs before they know what they were doing. Out of doing, they were more excited to learn.

This can have you writing a song TODAY!

I hope that helps! That's not discounting the above advice. It's great advice. It can help explain what you are doing AND bring you in new directions as you learn.

From a slightly different POV. Figure out what you want to say. In broad terms, think about your own experiences that you might want to expose in lyrics, not necessary to be poetic or rhyming, that can come with time. Melody's can happen by the way words come together naturally. Look at the way the Beatles lyrics told a story.
BIAB is a great tool because you can try so many styles and chords, it's like a lego set for music,just dive in.
Wyndham

Good points Hear to Learn.

I lOVE Hook Theory.

But I can't fail to mention that Hook Theory is pretty big on:


I (C) ii (dm or dm7) iii (em or em7) IV (F) V (G) vi (am or am7) and VIIdim (Bdim) and I (C--back to root)---in the key of C as the example here---mean in every key, and how they relate to songwriting.





https://www.hooktheory.com/

All good advice. I'll try a few alternate approaches.

1. Find a collaborator. If you have good ideas for a melody and feel, and can imagine whether a certain place feels major or minor, someone else can do the music arrangement.

2. Use BIAB to generate a song from your melody.

Of course, if it was easy, everyone would do it. Songwriting is a craft that takes a serious commitment to learn.

We have so many great songwriters here. Perhaps we should add a dedicated songwriters forum. Tips n tricks questions discusssions etc.

Peter,

I think this is a very interesting idea, of course, being a member and regional coordinator of a large and well known songwriter's association (Herb is part of our group).

Personally, I love songwriting sites (Gary Ewer has a great one) but I am not sure I have ever run across a great songwriting forum that had real substance to it. So I am intrigued. And also curious.

One thing I have noticed though: the majority of people I run across who say they want to become better songwriters become almost angry when you gently suggest that they may want to learn more than a G, C and D chord or read a book on lyric writing. I.e., when you tell them that songwriting is hard, and requires study, they actually get mad at you. But I know that without a basic and growing knowledge of theory--baby steps mind you--you simply will never be able to advance in your skills or take full advantage of a tool like BIAB.

My own best education in songwriting comes from my daily study of the style demos in BIAB--and finding amazingly cool chord progressions I never would have thought of. But that is after I already know what a I, I maj7, ii, iiim7, vi is...and so forth. I know why those chord progressions I find in BIAB demos are so cool because I already know the basics. So I know when someone has "broken a rule"--but done it in an ingenious way.

Then there is melody. That happens two ways. One way is you are born a genius like Paul McCartney and you can whistle hit melodies in your car as you go around the roundabout. The second way is you learn how to play an instrument and spend countless hours fiddling with notes until you find something that is catchy.

So, I am extremely interested in this idea, and would be your most avid reader.

But I do wonder, sometimes, if people realize how hard songwriting is and how much work and study it takes to become good.

That might not be the case here on the BIAB forum because there are so many talented and hardworking people here, but out there in the wider world you will find a lot of people who simply do not want to put forth the effort.

Just a few random thoughts. I would like to hear what other folks have to say about this. It could be wonderful if people took it seriously.

Right on.

I snickered at the thought until I realized 90% of "successful" songs have cowriters. I've tried to write with others a few times, but never found someone that fits. Different ears and goals and stuff.

And, yes, David, that is an interesting tendency, to bristle at suggestions. I know I do. Unless I'm not too vested in the song yet. I KNOW there's a problem, or I cringe on a certain line, where I'm just validating that they hear a problem also. It happened recently; I asked a good writer friend for an opinion, thoughts were given; I was irritated as heck; and he was right (I realized a week later).

Yes, listening to new BIAB demos....man, my head swims with song ideas when I do that...

I get it....

I've co-written with just a couple of old band mates long ago but they asked for my input.
As it was...they'd agreed with my suggestions.

I'm not interested in co-writing for the very reasons you state above.
My music is not that complicated but I'm extremely particular about song subject, lyrics and lyrical phrasing.
(If I could just sing up to my satisfaction that would be cool)
I'll spend consecutive days making sure each line meets my satisfaction and avoiding vapid cliches.

So...co-writing, as a rule, would not work for me.

I should qualify that my songs and above approach to song writing has kept me a poor, common man and unknown song writing entity.

Carry on....a good weekend to all.

Andy,

Try the book below if you get stuck.



I think the idea could be good one if people shared resources they find useful in developing their craft.

If people start offering suggestions on written material: I see all Hell breaking loose. World War III.

Been there, done that, got the scars.

But as I said, try this for starters:

as a companion to the book dave referenced

Beatles Songwriting Academy

Islansoul. Do February album writing month. www.fawm.org
Jump in head and feet and write a song every two days for the month of February. Participate in the skirmishes and the forum and find collaborators. You will come out of the month with a very good start.

Wayne. EXACTLY! It's all me, its my experience, no one can understand it in my context. Or, it's all lies and BS, but, it's all MY lies and BS. No help needed, Thank you, but no. Please go away.

David. THANK YOU! I own a bunch of song/music books, as I'm sure you do also. I have a special shelf with the go-tos on it.

Yes, we all should do a thread on books!!!!

We should have a songwriters forum, as that would help me out so much. Guys, I do understand what chords are, and the basics of chord structure such as the I IV V used in pop rock, the 12 bar blues, and the II V I in jazz, but again when it comes to chord and melody, I somehow feel a bit lost.

My problem has never been writing songs, it's not losing them. I've probably written a thousand or more sure fire hits (in my mind) while driving in my car with inspiration coming from a rattle, constant humming rhythm or some other noise. Great hooks and lyric phrases have popped into my head only to mysteriously disappear an hour later when I'm home and try to recall what I knew to be such a great write.

I recall seeing in a documentary that one of the early Bee Gees disco monster hits came about as they began singing over the repetitive rhythm sound of their car crossing a bridge in Miami every day driving to the recording studio.

On one occasion, I woke during the night immediately after dreaming about a song and was able to record the complete song and lyrics, chord progression down. The song was recorded several years later on my band's 1975 album.

Nearly everyone I know sings aloud making up jingles and pieces of songs, changing lyrics to a popular song they're listening to on the radio. They just never try to write in a serious manner. They don't think they have the talent.

Charlie

Cool idea. Anything and everything about the writing of music and lyrics. It could be a neat place for folks to ask questions about the process and art of writing as well as seek out collaborators in an open forum.

Islansoul,

Check out Pat Pattison's course at Berklee online.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/songwriting-lyrics

Andy....

Typically, I'm very selective when it comes to song writing.
My song subjects come from my personal experiences, my take of an aspect of life or imagined story lines. (IE: for concept projects)
Not forlorn songs about love lost or broken hearts.
Hence...all my song writing efforts are very personal to me.
Although, I do think I may have in my early writing archives about (3) of the woman/ballad genre but the last one was written in 1983.

We all have our propensities and there's a myriad of subjects to write about.

A good day to all....

One of Janice's favorite singers, Gregg Allman, said there are as many ways to write a song as there are songs. He also said that if there is a song in your soul it wiill come out. For us irrespective of genre a song works if it has soul (yeah, I know, define that Bud).

There are hundreds of roots songs, particularly classic bluegrass for example, that have the power to rip the paint right off of your heart. And they are three chords written by folks who couldn't tell you what I IV V means. I'm trying, perhaps poorly, to express that song writing is a big tent that includes the sophistication and class of Duke Ellington to the "true life" writings of Bill Monroe and Carter Stanley.

That's the wonder of it. Not everybody is trying to write a hit. Not everybody has an arsenal of chords. Heck, a lot of writers can't read music. But that doesn't mean they don't have something to say. Or that they might not let you experience their soul for a few minutes.

Bud

PS We think the idea of a songwriting forum would be very cool.

It has been my experience that I need to have a story to tell. I have never been able to just sit down and write something if I don't have a story in mind. My CD was truly 9 stories from my life.

I need to start dating somebody again and have her dump me so I have something to work with. And really, the finding somebody to date is the hard part. The getting dumped part is pretty much a given....

OK Eddie...you made me laugh. At least you have a sense of humor about it. But, man are your right. As for me, I need a story to get me started also. No story..no song.

Bob

Given all the books we've read, movies and tv shows we've seen, all the stories we've heard and all the personal stories we've been through -- there should be no lack of things to write about. I don't write personal stories about myself, I make everything up. Some of it works and some of it doesn't -- just like real life.

I've sat down a few times with no story in mind, and nothing to write about.

I just started writing and ended up with a few good songs that way. Of course, that road is littered with the broken, derelict, rotting shells of the songs that never made it to the finish line.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

That may be the funniest thing I have ever heard on this forum!!

Ha ha ha ha. A classic!!!

Herb, you need to write a song about those rotting eggs man. Throw in a walrus and you're done!

Ha! Breakups and barrooms.

Coo coo ka choo

You do yourself a disservice if you don't at least check out the aforementioned free Pat Pattinson course from Berklee.

I checked it out! Useful tips! Thanks!!

To the specific question of "What chords would go good with a melody", there are a number of factors to the answer.

But first, you need to know what chords are in the key.

This requires that you know the key that you're in.

Once you know the key, you need to know the notes of the scale. For example, the notes of the D major scale are (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#). The notes of the F major scale are (F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E).

Once you know the notes, you can create a list of chords in the scale. The 1st, 4th and 5th notes of a major scale will always give you a major chord. The 2nd, 3rd and 5th will give you a minor chord. The 7th note will give you a diminished chord.

So if you're in the key of D major, you have the chords:

D (D, F#, A)
Em (E, G, B)
F#m (F#, A, C#)
G (G, B, D)
A (A, C#, E)
Bm (B, D, F#)
C#dim (C#, E, G)

Again, I assume you already know this.

OK, now on to the "rules":

1. Most importantly: No matter what the "rules" tell you, if it sounds good, it is good. And if it sounds bad, it is bad.

2. Typically, only "important" notes need to match with the chords. If a note isn't on a strong beat (1st or 3rd beat), or is short, it's OK if that note doesn't go with the chord. A little bit of dissonance makes things interesting.

3. A chord will go with a melody if the melody note is a member of the chord. So if you're in the key of D and have a C# note in the melody, any chord with a C# will sound good. Reworking the chord chart above, we get:

D -> D, Bm, G
E -> Em, C#dim, A
F#m -> F#m, D, Bm
G -> G, Em, C#dim
A -> A, F#m, D
B -> Bm, G, F$
C# -> C#dim, A, F#m[

So the chords C#dim, A and F#m will all sound good with the note C#. You don't really need to make a list, you can just find the chord based on the note you're looking at (C#dim), two steps under that note (A) and two steps over that note (E).

In contrast, the chord G won't work, because the G chord doesn't have a C# note in it - the notes of the G chord are (G,B,D).


This raises the question, "What chords go with other chords?" The answer is "it depends", but in general:

1. If the chord is 3 scale degrees higher than the prior chord, it's strong and smooth. So a D chord will strongly follow a A chord, because D is 3 scale degrees above A: (A,B,C#,D). Similarly, Bm will follow an F#m.

There's a handy diagram called the "Circle of Fifth" or the "Cycle of Fourths" that Google will happily find for you. Learn it and love it.

2. If a chord shares two notes of the prior chord, it'll sound smooth. So a D chord with the notes (D,F#,A) will connect smoothly with a Bm chord containing (B,D,F#), because they share the two notes (D,F#).

3. If the chord is a major and belongs to the key, it can move to any other major chord in that scale. For example, the key of D has three major chords: D, G and A. So any of these chords will smoothly follow each other.

Wow! That was REALLY nice of you to do AND very useful...yet brief enough to have someone jump right in!

To me, it is more important to get someone going using something than trying to teach them EVERYTHING right away...giving them information constipation.

Some really great songs have been written that are really simple. From there I feel people "catch the learning bug."

I will be showing this to my kids!

Thanks!

David, you should cross-post this to the tips and tricks forum.

Great tips Dave.

David. What a great simple explanation. Thank you for taking the time to type this out. I am going to write it out in G (my favourite key) and stick it on my wall.

But thing #1 is that you need to expect and accept that you are going to write a LOT of bad songs before you start writing decent ones. I mean the evolution is something like:

bad
not as bad
so so
kinda sorta decent
decent
kinda sorta okay
okay
kinda sort good
good

And those are not one song intervals.

What I am saying in a lighthearted way is that the only way to learn how to play darts is to throw a lot of darts. And the only way to learn how to shoot free throws is to shoot a lot of free throws. And the only way to hit a bulls eye at the gun range is to throw a LOT of rounds downrange.

The only way to learn how to write songs is to just write those bad songs as you grow. Figure out what your story is, write the story out in lines that have a cadence, feeling where beats would be. That gives you some idea for cadence and tempo. Remember that your tempo can't be so fast that you can't get the words out between breaths. Once the cadence of the lyrics fits the cadence of the music (you will feel where natural pulses fit together) then you start thinking about the melody. You may go through 4-5 different melodies before you are comfortable with one.

Just as an example, let's pick The Beatles Love Me Do. Think of those lyrics.

Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
So please......
Love me do

and then think of how those lyrics lay against the cadence of the music. That is a loose definition of prosody, how lyrics and music work together.
Now think of their song I've Just Seen A Face. That is a very wordy lyric, but when you lay it against the tempo of the song, they fit together. Think of it like when you slip your hand into a baseball glove and the fingers of your hand naturally find their way into the fingers of the glove. That's what you are after.

This is also where some basic music lessons would help you if you have never taken any. Learning about tempo, where the "1" is in every measure, what a measure is, how to read what the little dots are all about, especially the time value of the quarter note, the half note, the whole note, what a dot behind a note means, tied notes... You don't need to go DEEP into theory, but basics. Like maybe knowing why the different key signatures have sharps and flats. Someone mentioned a chord wheel. When you look at the wheel, moving to the right, each new key adds one sharp. C has none, G has 1, D has 2, etc. When you see the relativity of G being the 5th note of the C scale, and D being the 5th note of the G scale and so forth, it starts to make sense quickly. And going to the left of the wheel you add 1 flat at a time, and those flats happen on the 4th note of a scale. So C has no flats, the 4th note of the C scale is F, and F has one flat. The 4th note of the F scale is B flat, which has 2 flats, and so on. Do you NEED to know that stuff to let BIAB wrote your music and go play at Billy's Bar? Nope! But knowing how to use those tools helps your songwriting craftsmanship like knowing a hammer from a chisel helps a carpenter. It would honestly become clear to you quickly if you took a music fundamentals course at your local community college. Most young people these days learn songs. Nobody learns music.

I hope that made SOME kind of sense to you.

Circle of fifths is a great tool, I use it all the time. There are lots of webpages that talk about it, here is one: http://guitaristguitarist.com/guitar_music_theory.html

I have one printed out and pinned to my wall for reference, I think this is the image I used: Circle of Fifths chart

You can use any chord with any melody. The key is in the context of how you use that chord where, in the melody, you're using it.

Just voice it out and if it doesn't sound like 2 trains colliding, it's okay. Your song, your ear, your circus, your monkey, your choice.

Always my favorite graphic. What chords easily lead to the next chord? Just remember these are guidelines, not rules. Any chord can follow any chord, but it might make it tough to sound good in some situations. From this site: http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/chartmaps.htm

Just in case that one is not familiar with the "Circles": The circle of fifths is usually clockwise. The same circle counter-clockwise is the circle of fourths.

I have also read that with maybe with a few exceptions a song should be around 3 mins long, else you run the risk of totally boring your audience or anyone you are pitching the song to, exceptions of course to this rule.

And if pitching a song to someone keep the intro and solo very very short.

Musiclover

Great info in this post on songwriting. And so we plan on making a dedicated Songwriting forum, so a thread like this doesn't get lost in the "off-topic" world. We'll move this post to this new forum when ready as the first post in what I heop will be a great forum for Songwriters (and budding songwriters) to join in the discussions geared to songwriting.

PG Music folks are remarkably tuned into their customers. Two new forums in a week! It would take some companies weeks to do this...if they did it at all. It is amazing how many companies just don't get it.

Thanks!

J&B

I've thought for some time that a Song Writing Forum here would be good idea.

There are a boatload of people here posting their song writing efforts and we all know song writing is far from easy.
A plethora of subjects to write about, ways to approach it and actually complete a song one can be pleased with....should others like it...truly a plus.

Good idea....
Another forum here for me to chime in on, possibly to the dismay of some.

Back to it....

And now the battle rages on where it will be located....top, bottom, second from the bottom... LOL!!

My first post!

It's interesting to read the initial comments of song writing. They are like many other posts about writing and learning music, aka you gotta learn that theory.

But something to consider is that writing music is about communication, sharing your thoughts, ideas, dreams, etc. when we first learn to communicate do we first have to understand the "theory"? Do we need to know what a verb, noun, predicate, or conjunction is before we can say,"Mama"?

I say first just start doing it! Write something, anything. Get those feelings out, save them, record them, then do it again. Next learn some new chords and write songs with those. Once you get used to communicating learn some theory, not all at once, just a little. Then go back to writing, using a bit of what you learned.

Remember you spent 5 or more years of your life learning to speak, learning to communicate, before you started to learn the theory of how words work. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it. Just sharing a thought.

That is awesome, Kemmrich!

I've been trying to come up with a unique, mid-song key transition, then return to the original key (it's not a bridge...just a little couple of bars/anomalies for interest's sake). I'll be looking into that website.

(Added)

And, Tmidiman.... EXACTLY. Write. Don't know where to start?...just write, free-flow...and don't worry about it. Something will happen eventually. It might stink, it probably will stink, but some day it might not. Old story:

"Keen to not forget his magical dream melody, McCartney wrote some temporary lyrics for the song – about scrambled eggs, and named it after the breakfast dish. They went: "Scrambled eggs, oh, my baby, how I love your legs…" "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/the-beatles/11680415/Yesterday-the-song-that-started-as-Scrambled-Eggs.html

I concur....

I've read posts (a different forum) by new song writers/musicians saying 'I don't need any music theory, insert artist here doesn't read music...".
On and on....

Well, it is my opinion that if one actually wants to excel at music (whatever aspect) learning the language to some degree is necessary.
Especially if one wants to interact with others that are far more proficient.

But...that's just me.

Carry on....

Step 1 of songwriting IN BIAB is entering chords onto a chart. If you know zero theory, how you going to do that? If you know zero theory, you might enter the key of L not knowing it only goes from A to G.

See, I run into this a lot, where I am trying to talk to someone and I use a phrase like "That first syllable comes before the downbeat." If they don't know what the downbeat is, how can they understand what I mean?

That's why my long post included the term "basic basics". Note values, time signatures, chord wheel. You don't have to know the brand of clavier Mozart used.... but you DO have to know what 3/4 and 4/4 mean, or how can you even begin charting? I mean, even if you know C, F, G and Am, that will get you started writing a simplistic song. But is it a waltz, a shuffle, a stomp, or a swing tune? You have to know what those are to pick the right style. (Again, these comments are heavily related to BIAB.)

Some of the comments that border on the ridiculous like people who tell me that Frank Sinatra didn't write... please. There is no book called "How to write hit songs without putting any effort into it" that is all blank pages. It takes work, it takes time, and to be good, it takes knowledge. We have a handful of users here who want us to learn for them. It doesn't work that way. There are also a lot of people who say "I'm not that good of a player." Well, why not? Spend on hour a day learning to play better. That can only make you a better writer, right? Music, even as a hobby, takes effort. Nobody expects a guy writing his first song ever to place it on a Billboard chart, but even Diane Warren wrote her first song at some point. Everybody also doesn't have the luxury of being able to put as much time into music as they might like, as that pesky "work" thing gets into the way, and for those that have kids, you have soccer games and swim meets and such. All depends on how much you want it. At the very worst, you have the chance to learn some new stuff.

I used to get someone at almost every gig come to me at break and say something like "I wish I could play keyboards like you do." My answer, for decades, was "Why can't you? I didn't come from the womb knowing how to play. I can tell you first hand that wishing isn't going to make it happen. So start taking some lessons, practice every day, and in 6 months or so, come out and do a song with us." Really does come down to return on investment.

Ha!....the key of "L".

I can comfortably state that I've written a song in damn near every key even though it really challenges my (lack of) vocal ability.
At least I know Q is the relative minor!

On a serious note...learning the language to some degree is incumbent on all of us.

Back to topic....

Thanks everyone. My main issue with chord theory is knowing how to combine chords an scales with a melody. I took a class in college on lyrics writting, where I learned about various lyrical writting methods. However, I am not a singer, and therefore I prefer to write instrumental songs. I guess I should have clarified that my song writing style is really more on the composition side rather then the traditional singer-songwriter side.

No worries

Here's the REALLY good news...your question started a whole knew part to the forum! How cool is that? So, great job!

Now, here is my take, don't be afraid to start with some short melodies, post them here, and ask! You will find that not only will you get suggestions, but explanations as to why! It's a FANTASTIC learning environment!

Don't be afraid to make "mistakes!"

Don't let that stop you. Somebody wrote all those songs you hear on the radio, and often it is not the one singing it.

This is great! I love this topic on the forum!

I'm no professional, but I've been writing songs since I was about 8 or 9. At that age I had no knowledge of music theory, but just a budding interest in writing poems and "making up songs". That is how most of my relatives and friends described what I did... I just "made up stuff". Kind of like lying, but with a little more finesse!

As for a technique for writing a song... to me it almost always starts with a lyric. Usually a snippet of a thought about someone or something close to me. Then I play around with it and guessimate a basic tune on the guitar. After a lot of tweaking of the lyrics and melody, then I'll usually input it into BIAB and search for a suitable "feel". Almost without exception, Band In A Box will take me in a completely different direction! Sometimes a simple acoustic guitar and vocal song becomes a monster of 20 odd Realtracks!

Of course, there are also times where the song just appears - almost like magic - melody and lyrics together. That's pretty cool. Some of my favorite songs that I've written were conceived in minutes. Others I've worked on for weeks or months and still haven't finished.

All this hyperbole on my part is simply to agree with others who've said that there is no "one way" to write a song. ANY and EVERY way that results in a song are good methods. And as you (we, I) continue to grow in our musical knowledge, those songs we create will show greater craftsmanship. BUT... not necessarily greater inspiration than before, nor greater acceptance by others. That, my friends, is up to the Muses.

Jim "g33zrj1m"

Very true, many ways to get to the same end result.

In my case for the last year I've worked with a songwriting partner, I do the music and she does the melody/lyrics.

Mostly I come up with the basic idea for the song, I come up with a chord progression for verses and chorus etc. on guitar. At that point I have an idea what I want it to sound like so I transfer it over to BIAB to build the basic bed. Then I send it over to Chris and if she likes it she comes up with the melody and the lyrics. Lots of back and forth of course as the song develops, moving verses around, etc.

In one case she already had a song written with lyrics and melody and sent me over a demo of just her singing. I found a chord progression that worked well with the melody, and built the bed based on that.

Collaboration. Always a fun process and it's like magic when you are writing with the right partner. Most of the songs I've written, the ones I consider my "better songs" are all collaborations.

Hi.
I have been writing songs for nearly a year now and have found it a fabulous experience,especially working with other songwriters and I have been amazed by the enthusiasm of people across the web about the songs and my singing,people have been so encouraging and positive about it ,especially on this forum and that makes it feel even better,as you guys know what you're talking about.
Real tracks especially have made a big difference,such good accompaniments and it makes it so much easier to do the songs.
As to ideas,I get them from all over,quite often they just come out of nowhere,my song Journeymans Song was made up on the spot,and has proved to be my most popular song to date,which is brilliant.
I write songs mainly because I enjoy it I suppose and with so much encouragement from others I shall endeavour to do more.
R.

Some of us come up with the chords and melody first and then put words to them.
I always come up with the lyrics (words) first...but actually I come up with a phrase or and inspiration first. Like when your girlfriend throws all you stuff out in the front yard and changes the lock on your house. And then you see someone else's pickup parked and the grass that you just spent five years trying to grow. Just scratch what ever comes to you down and add to it later.. Or if you get on a roll you can write it all out down at one time.
Some times these days it is hard to be inspired. I remember when I was young and every body I new came around on weekends and played music together for like all night long. Now I look around an all I see is people thumbing on notebooks and phones. So inspiration can come and go these days. I have some friends that are new to song writing and they don't know much about the music part but they crank out some good lyrics. They get other people to put chords in for them and they test out the melody to see if it fits.
If you have "Band in a Box" you can get your lyrics down and use the real styles to find something close to the way you would like your song to go. Then try some chords in it and change the key to fit.
There are a lot of people who might help with the music part if you have lyrics..but you have to find someone you can trust...because if you have a good song they might be tempted to steal it.. Because you never know when someone is gonna pull up a hit song. You could be the next person to do just that.
Good luck my friend