PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Writing Songs

You can use any chord with any melody. The key is in the context of how you use that chord where, in the melody, you're using it.

Just voice it out and if it doesn't sound like 2 trains colliding, it's okay. Your song, your ear, your circus, your monkey, your choice.

Always my favorite graphic. What chords easily lead to the next chord? Just remember these are guidelines, not rules. Any chord can follow any chord, but it might make it tough to sound good in some situations. From this site: http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/chartmaps.htm

Just in case that one is not familiar with the "Circles": The circle of fifths is usually clockwise. The same circle counter-clockwise is the circle of fourths.

I have also read that with maybe with a few exceptions a song should be around 3 mins long, else you run the risk of totally boring your audience or anyone you are pitching the song to, exceptions of course to this rule.

And if pitching a song to someone keep the intro and solo very very short.

Musiclover

Great info in this post on songwriting. And so we plan on making a dedicated Songwriting forum, so a thread like this doesn't get lost in the "off-topic" world. We'll move this post to this new forum when ready as the first post in what I heop will be a great forum for Songwriters (and budding songwriters) to join in the discussions geared to songwriting.

PG Music folks are remarkably tuned into their customers. Two new forums in a week! It would take some companies weeks to do this...if they did it at all. It is amazing how many companies just don't get it.

Thanks!

J&B

I've thought for some time that a Song Writing Forum here would be good idea.

There are a boatload of people here posting their song writing efforts and we all know song writing is far from easy.
A plethora of subjects to write about, ways to approach it and actually complete a song one can be pleased with....should others like it...truly a plus.

Good idea....
Another forum here for me to chime in on, possibly to the dismay of some.

Back to it....

And now the battle rages on where it will be located....top, bottom, second from the bottom... LOL!!

My first post!

It's interesting to read the initial comments of song writing. They are like many other posts about writing and learning music, aka you gotta learn that theory.

But something to consider is that writing music is about communication, sharing your thoughts, ideas, dreams, etc. when we first learn to communicate do we first have to understand the "theory"? Do we need to know what a verb, noun, predicate, or conjunction is before we can say,"Mama"?

I say first just start doing it! Write something, anything. Get those feelings out, save them, record them, then do it again. Next learn some new chords and write songs with those. Once you get used to communicating learn some theory, not all at once, just a little. Then go back to writing, using a bit of what you learned.

Remember you spent 5 or more years of your life learning to speak, learning to communicate, before you started to learn the theory of how words work. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it. Just sharing a thought.

That is awesome, Kemmrich!

I've been trying to come up with a unique, mid-song key transition, then return to the original key (it's not a bridge...just a little couple of bars/anomalies for interest's sake). I'll be looking into that website.

(Added)

And, Tmidiman.... EXACTLY. Write. Don't know where to start?...just write, free-flow...and don't worry about it. Something will happen eventually. It might stink, it probably will stink, but some day it might not. Old story:

"Keen to not forget his magical dream melody, McCartney wrote some temporary lyrics for the song – about scrambled eggs, and named it after the breakfast dish. They went: "Scrambled eggs, oh, my baby, how I love your legs…" "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/the-beatles/11680415/Yesterday-the-song-that-started-as-Scrambled-Eggs.html

I concur....

I've read posts (a different forum) by new song writers/musicians saying 'I don't need any music theory, insert artist here doesn't read music...".
On and on....

Well, it is my opinion that if one actually wants to excel at music (whatever aspect) learning the language to some degree is necessary.
Especially if one wants to interact with others that are far more proficient.

But...that's just me.

Carry on....

Step 1 of songwriting IN BIAB is entering chords onto a chart. If you know zero theory, how you going to do that? If you know zero theory, you might enter the key of L not knowing it only goes from A to G.

See, I run into this a lot, where I am trying to talk to someone and I use a phrase like "That first syllable comes before the downbeat." If they don't know what the downbeat is, how can they understand what I mean?

That's why my long post included the term "basic basics". Note values, time signatures, chord wheel. You don't have to know the brand of clavier Mozart used.... but you DO have to know what 3/4 and 4/4 mean, or how can you even begin charting? I mean, even if you know C, F, G and Am, that will get you started writing a simplistic song. But is it a waltz, a shuffle, a stomp, or a swing tune? You have to know what those are to pick the right style. (Again, these comments are heavily related to BIAB.)

Some of the comments that border on the ridiculous like people who tell me that Frank Sinatra didn't write... please. There is no book called "How to write hit songs without putting any effort into it" that is all blank pages. It takes work, it takes time, and to be good, it takes knowledge. We have a handful of users here who want us to learn for them. It doesn't work that way. There are also a lot of people who say "I'm not that good of a player." Well, why not? Spend on hour a day learning to play better. That can only make you a better writer, right? Music, even as a hobby, takes effort. Nobody expects a guy writing his first song ever to place it on a Billboard chart, but even Diane Warren wrote her first song at some point. Everybody also doesn't have the luxury of being able to put as much time into music as they might like, as that pesky "work" thing gets into the way, and for those that have kids, you have soccer games and swim meets and such. All depends on how much you want it. At the very worst, you have the chance to learn some new stuff.

I used to get someone at almost every gig come to me at break and say something like "I wish I could play keyboards like you do." My answer, for decades, was "Why can't you? I didn't come from the womb knowing how to play. I can tell you first hand that wishing isn't going to make it happen. So start taking some lessons, practice every day, and in 6 months or so, come out and do a song with us." Really does come down to return on investment.

Ha!....the key of "L".

I can comfortably state that I've written a song in damn near every key even though it really challenges my (lack of) vocal ability.
At least I know Q is the relative minor!

On a serious note...learning the language to some degree is incumbent on all of us.

Back to topic....

Thanks everyone. My main issue with chord theory is knowing how to combine chords an scales with a melody. I took a class in college on lyrics writting, where I learned about various lyrical writting methods. However, I am not a singer, and therefore I prefer to write instrumental songs. I guess I should have clarified that my song writing style is really more on the composition side rather then the traditional singer-songwriter side.

No worries

Here's the REALLY good news...your question started a whole knew part to the forum! How cool is that? So, great job!

Now, here is my take, don't be afraid to start with some short melodies, post them here, and ask! You will find that not only will you get suggestions, but explanations as to why! It's a FANTASTIC learning environment!

Don't be afraid to make "mistakes!"

Don't let that stop you. Somebody wrote all those songs you hear on the radio, and often it is not the one singing it.

This is great! I love this topic on the forum!

I'm no professional, but I've been writing songs since I was about 8 or 9. At that age I had no knowledge of music theory, but just a budding interest in writing poems and "making up songs". That is how most of my relatives and friends described what I did... I just "made up stuff". Kind of like lying, but with a little more finesse!

As for a technique for writing a song... to me it almost always starts with a lyric. Usually a snippet of a thought about someone or something close to me. Then I play around with it and guessimate a basic tune on the guitar. After a lot of tweaking of the lyrics and melody, then I'll usually input it into BIAB and search for a suitable "feel". Almost without exception, Band In A Box will take me in a completely different direction! Sometimes a simple acoustic guitar and vocal song becomes a monster of 20 odd Realtracks!

Of course, there are also times where the song just appears - almost like magic - melody and lyrics together. That's pretty cool. Some of my favorite songs that I've written were conceived in minutes. Others I've worked on for weeks or months and still haven't finished.

All this hyperbole on my part is simply to agree with others who've said that there is no "one way" to write a song. ANY and EVERY way that results in a song are good methods. And as you (we, I) continue to grow in our musical knowledge, those songs we create will show greater craftsmanship. BUT... not necessarily greater inspiration than before, nor greater acceptance by others. That, my friends, is up to the Muses.

Jim "g33zrj1m"

Very true, many ways to get to the same end result.

In my case for the last year I've worked with a songwriting partner, I do the music and she does the melody/lyrics.

Mostly I come up with the basic idea for the song, I come up with a chord progression for verses and chorus etc. on guitar. At that point I have an idea what I want it to sound like so I transfer it over to BIAB to build the basic bed. Then I send it over to Chris and if she likes it she comes up with the melody and the lyrics. Lots of back and forth of course as the song develops, moving verses around, etc.

In one case she already had a song written with lyrics and melody and sent me over a demo of just her singing. I found a chord progression that worked well with the melody, and built the bed based on that.

Collaboration. Always a fun process and it's like magic when you are writing with the right partner. Most of the songs I've written, the ones I consider my "better songs" are all collaborations.