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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzXsGmFeRqULarry PS do not blow him off too fast (if you don't know anything about him you may want to google him first).
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I tend to say the tone is all in your hands...and for the most part it is.... BUT.... some of the guitars ... the cheap ones.... are really really bad. No amount of hand technique will bail you out of that toneless mess.
I bought a cheap guitar at a yard sale and took it to a gig that night after restringing it. Instant feedback at any thing over 5 on the guitar volume. I sold it that same night to the sound guy for the $20 I gave for it.
But yeah, there are great guitars with no brand name that sound good, play smoothly and are a great deal financially.
MY "Fender Tele" is a MIC version. Way cheaper than a MIA Fender.
Same goes for amps and other gear. Some old vintage amps made by "off brand" companies, sound really sweet. I've had several that I owned and sold for various reasons, through the years.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/19/17 03:16 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Cool video. Thanks Larry. I love cheap guitars!  Regards, Bob
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Herb, I agree with you. There is a big difference between cheap and inexpensive guitars. One can buy very good inexpensive guitars from Rondo Music http://www.rondomusic.com/ , Guitar Fetish http://www.guitarfetish.com/ and others. During my years of teaching I saw a lot of cheap guitars from Walmart, K-Mart, etc. From those observations I would say about 20% of those guitars are playable right out of the box while the rest needed work, sometimes at a very high cost, to get it in playable condition. Even then they sounded very tinny.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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During my years of teaching I saw a lot of cheap guitars from Walmart, K-Mart, etc. From those observations I would say about 20% of those guitars are playable right out of the box while the rest needed work, sometimes at a very high cost, to get it in playable condition. Even then they sounded very tinny. So....it seems it's a roll of the dice unless one has very seasoned knowledge and experience to find a a worthy diamond in the ruff. I don't think I'd be very good at it. I bought a tele back in 1979 but I could never afford/justify a Fender back then...probably not now either, for that matter.  So...I bought an Ibanez Tele Silver Series (1977 for 275$) from our lead player when our band was regrouping. I had pickups replaced in 1993 and it's still a damn fine axe to play...it's the one in my avatar. Anyway....the video was interesting....thanks. Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 02/19/17 10:24 AM.
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Sears use to purchase their guitars and amplifiers from top of the line off brand manufacturers like Kay, Harmony and Danelectro. You could purchase some really good instruments from Sears in the sixties.
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Like Gino I also have an actual 60's ('68) ES-335, except being older than him I actually bought mine new in the 60's However, that vid is making me want to pull trigger on an Epi Limited Edition ES-335 Pro (turns out they are on sale for $379 right now, I can't find them anywhere for $350 but it's now a few years after that video so...) I think I might also put a trapeze on mine as well (my '68 has trapeze) - WTH Larry PS Wife will be mad since her birthday is in a few days and all she's getting is a card! 
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Music Radar recently posted reviews of 35 electric guitars under $500 http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/33-of-the-best-budget-electric-guitars-in-the-world-today-586459Last December I got a new Yamaha Pacifica PAC212VQM for under $400. I have some very nice double humbucker guitars but never had a Stratocaster style guitar. So, I picked up one of these as my first strat style guitar to give it a whirl. I've been playing it almost every day since and compared to my $2,200 USA made Schecter Custom Shop and my post law suit (1984 Matsumoku) Vantage Les Paul I think it's in the same category. Other than being made in Indonesia I don't see why they couldn't sell these for $900 - $1,200. I'm not going to do full review right here but I can't see any reason to upgrade or change anything except for I immediately replaced the nut with a Graph Tech TUSQ XL. But that's so I can do pitch bends at the headstock. BTW, I strongly agree that it's in the fingers. It's not 100% all in the fingers though. You can play with your teeth when your fingers get sore.
Last edited by Tobias; 02/19/17 05:59 PM.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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You can play with your teeth when your fingers get sore. Now that's dedication!
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Sears use to purchase their guitars and amplifiers from top of the line off brand manufacturers like Kay, Harmony and Danelectro. You could purchase some really good instruments from Sears in the sixties.
I don't, and would not refer to Kay, Harmony, and Danelectro as "top of the line" guitars. Off brand certainly, marginal beginner's guitars*, but no where close to TOTL. I had a Harmony guitar before I purchased my Gibson, so I know first hand about them. Moving from the Harmony to the Gibson, I could not believe how much easier the Gibson was to play and how much better it sounded. I had a Harmony guitar as a teen. It was the second guitar I owned. The first one was a Woolworth's $25 guitar. After playing with it for a year, I convinced my mom I needed a better guitar and I had my eye on a new shiny Harmony with a $99 price tag in a music store. I got that guitar for my birthday as I recall. While it was better than the Woolworth guitar, a few years later I bought my Gibson SG from a fellow for a couple hundred bucks. Around 1971 or so. The Gibson made the Harmony sound and play like a piece of junk. Seriously, there is no comparison to a good quality, well made guitar like a Gibson or a Fender. A friend had a solid state Silvertone amp. I believe that was a Sears brand at the time. Like any bunch of kids in the 60's trying to get a "band" together..... we used that amp for the whole band....and PA. 2 channels and 2 inputs on each.... 2 guitars, one bass, and a high impedance mic. We were in high cotton as the saying goes. * when people ask me to recommend a guitar for their kid who is wanting to learn to play guitar, I always recommend buying a good quality, perhaps a second hand name brand guitar. Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Ovation, Martin, Taylor etc.... I recommend these brands because they are well made and therefore, sound better, are easier to play, and if the kid decides 6 months later it's not his/her thing, the guitar can be resold for the initial investment cost, especially if it was bought at a discount second hand and it's still in good condition.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/20/17 03:11 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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That used to be the case, but not anymore. I was shopping for a new 335, so I went to Guitar Satan to check one out. The fretwork, binding, glue, and overall workmanship was horrible. For $3K. I bought an Ibanez 335 copy for $350. Got it setup by a luthier and it plays like a dream. And, I don't have to insure it! Regards, Bob
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I own an Epiphone ES-339 Pro that I got in a trade. A real sweet guitar, well made, and with the coil tapping I can get a variety of great tones. I'm currently thinking of putting a Bigsby on it.
Frank
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I'd recommend checking out D'Angelico for some really nice copies of some of the classic archtops: http://dangelicoguitars.com/guitars/
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* when people ask me to recommend a guitar for their kid who is wanting to learn to play guitar, I always recommend buying a good quality, perhaps a second hand name brand guitar. Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Ovation, Martin, Taylor etc.... I recommend these brands because they are well made and therefore, sound better, are easier to play, and if the kid decides 6 months later it's not his/her thing, the guitar can be resold for the initial investment cost, especially if it was bought at a discount second hand and it's still in good condition.
Your comment is actually the reason I posted that link. A while back we already had this age old discussion about whether parents (teachers) should buy (recommend) high-end guitars, be they electric or acoustic, or inexpensive (I do NOT mean cheap and crappy) - for a beginner (who may or may not stick with it). I was, and am, in the "go to store, pawn shop, where ever and see if it felt OK, action wise, and go INEXPENSIVE, maybe even no name." YES, the play-ability NEEDS TO BE determined by an experienced player/teacher (NOT the store sales person) remember that experienced player isn't looking for a shredders's holy grail action set-up anyway (I hope). Why have parents lay down a fortune on a crap shoot (how many homes have/had pianos that never got played?)- besides my experience is most kids have the attention span of gnat. That aside, how does the above work? 1. Second-hand bargains aside, if a parent can sell a guitar, say 6 months later, for (essentially) the initial investment who's buying them? Who is dumb enough to buy a, now used, $1k or more guitar for an almost new price? I know I wouldn't, would you? If the asking price is essentially the same as the "go buy it new" price - I may as well "go buy it new" minus all the kid abuse. Unlike Gino's sentiment in that video, I both like that new guitar (and car) smell and I hate playing someone else's broke-in fretboard - LOL. Also that brings up the whole "if they are getting essentially their initial investment back" where do these other great "bargains" (these great, but inexpensive, second hand guitars) come from? In last decade or so, with rise of internet, eBay, Music-Go-Round, Amazon, MF, and other places that can instantly check market prices it's not been my experience to walk into ANY pawn shop or second-hand store in the scores states, and many more scores of cities, my job took me to and find much in way of "bargains." Yes, I still find second-hand bargains but nothing like I use to be able to find before rise of the internet - and savings are sometimes so small on those that I simply OPT for new. And it's not just guitars, its everything: amps, firearms, electronics,... 2. I also have never bought into the logic of buying "brand names" because they are (or might be) easier to play. If ease of playing were the driving concern I would never, ever, start a student on a large box Martin, Taylor, Gibson, or other acoustic with their std. 12's or 13's (I don’t care how low the action)! I'd start them on smaller body Tele's, Strat's, SG's, etc. with ultra low actions, set-up with .08's (and tuned down a half-step)! It don’t get no easier on those poor little fingers! I'm from the dark ages - I'd start them on inexpensive WIDE NECK classical's with SHEET MUSIC and an big a$$ metronome: WORK THOSE FINGERS and those little underdeveloped brains! I wonder why I have ZERO students? Larry
Last edited by Larry Kehl; 02/20/17 11:25 AM.
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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Good points Larry
Yeah, pawnshop prices on junk is pretty high. I'm guessing they count on the uninformed buyer with cash and itchy fingers and dreams of stardom, to buy the junk at inflated prices. Any brand names on the rack, regardless of condition, will be even higher. The days of finding a vintage Fender or Gibson for a few hundred dollars in some dusty pawnshop where the owner doesn't know what he has on his wall are gone.
However, since you know they bought really low, showing some cash and being serious about the deal can often get you a decent bargain. I've never bought from a pawnshop because I didn't want anything I saw on the wall bad enough.
Generally speaking, the brand names are built better and therefore can usually be setup to play smooth as silk. Of course, there are those lemons in the bunch and exceptions to the group. But the owners of the stores aren't stupid and know that the brand names are quality guitars so they jack the prices. And no doubt create stories on the background history..... "this guitar was owned by a friend of a friend of Joe Walsh when he played with the James Gang" and Joe used to play it when they jammed..."
I was asked by many parents through the years to "teach my child to play guitar"... to which I always relied "No. Sorry, I don't teach. You need to enroll them in a guitar teacher's class" Of all the kids I know of that started learning to play, I don't know of a single one who continued much past 6 moths to a year at best. Too many other more "instantly gratifying" things to do as a kid, than to spend the hundreds of solitary hours required to play chords with confidence.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Good video and quite true about the lawsuit era guitars. Living in South Africa where the ZAR to $US is more than 10 to 1 even a good lawsuit can be a rather expensive buy.
As a consolation, some very active instrument exchange pages are active on FB and other forums where (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome) GAS can be fed.
As to cheap guitars, it's what they are. These guitars are mostly manufactured en mass and corners are cut to keep cost down which also affects quality.
There are however a few gems out there which are affordable and have some attributes that I like in a guitar, such as the neck and pickup combination. Pickups and pots can be changed out for the desired tone but the neck defines the interpretation to achieve that tone.
I recently acquired a very cheap SX tele for the amazing price of 130$US and was smitten (Love struck) by the neck shape as well as the original pickups. For the past three months it has been my favourite go to electric in favour of my USA Strat and a MIJ Tokai.
Acquiring good affordable (cheap) instruments for beginners are risky as I believe it will end in disappointment once compared to a well set up brand name.
Experience and tonal preference will make such purchases easier and more affordable over time. Alternatively take a skilled guitarist to play before you pay.
My stringy rambling for the day
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.................
I recently acquired a very cheap SX tele for the amazing price of 130$US and was smitten (Love struck) by the neck shape as well as the original pickups. For the past three months it has been my favourite go to electric in favour of my USA Strat and a MIJ Tokai.
...............
This brought a smile to my face. I also have an inexpensive SX Tele that my wife bought me. At the time it was $109 USD. A good friend came over with his $2,500 USD Fender Tele and he told me, and I quote, "I just wasted a $2,400 USD." The sound and play-ability of my SX was as good as his Fender. YMMV
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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This brought a smile to my face. I also have an inexpensive SX Tele that my wife bought me. At the time it was $109 USD. A good friend came over with his $2,500 USD Fender Tele and he told me, and I quote, "I just wasted a $2,400 USD." The sound and play-ability of my SX was as good as his Fender. YMMV
$2,500 USD for an American Standard Tele??? I just bought a new American Standard tele last year for less than half that, and that's Canadian Dollars too.
Last edited by BlueAttitude; 03/07/17 01:28 AM. Reason: typo
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This brought a smile to my face. I also have an inexpensive SX Tele that my wife bought me. At the time it was $109 USD. A good friend came over with his $2,500 USD Fender Tele and he told me, and I quote, "I just wasted a $2,400 USD." The sound and play-ability of my SX was as good as his Fender. YMMV
$2,500 USD for an American Standard Tele??? I just bought a new American Standard tele last year for less than half that, and that's Canadian Dollars too. That is what he said. He bought it a number of years ago and it was the top of the line model. I see today it sells for $2,000 on line. I know that he bought it from a local music store as he is totally computer illiterate and he did not have a computer. He either misspoke or he did in fact pay that much.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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This brought a smile to my face. I also have an inexpensive SX Tele that my wife bought me. At the time it was $109 USD. A good friend came over with his $2,500 USD Fender Tele and he told me, and I quote, "I just wasted a $2,400 USD." The sound and play-ability of my SX was as good as his Fender. YMMV
$2,500 USD for an American Standard Tele??? I just bought a new American Standard tele last year for less than half that, and that's Canadian Dollars too. That is what he said. He bought it a number of years ago and it was the top of the line model. I see today it sells for $2,000 on line. I know that he bought it from a local music store as he is totally computer illiterate and he did not have a computer. He either misspoke or he did in fact pay that much. Yes, that explains it. The deluxe model is a couple of grades up from the basic "American Standard" which is what I have. I remember now seeing them in the store when I got mine. Special low noise pickups, bindings, some other bells and whistles. A lot of money for a guitar!
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Video: New User Interface (GUI)
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows is here and it is packed with major new features! There’s a new modern look, a GUI redesign to all areas of the program including toolbars, windows, workflow and more. There’s a Multi-view layout for organizing multiple windows. A standout addition is the powerful AI-Notes feature, which uses AI neural-net technology to transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI—entire mixes or individual instruments—making it easy to study, view, and play parts from any song. And that’s just the beginning—there are over 60 new features in this exciting release.
Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
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