Well, Toontrack sells a lot of MIDI patterns for both EZKeys and EZDrummer, the expressivity coming from being recorded by a human being.
PG Music does something similar with the MIDI supertracks.
But the developement has been centered on producing Real Tracks, as that's what people want; having real musicians playing what you tell'em to following a "pattern", called "style".
I don't see this changing anytime soon.
But I can see an enormous market for acquiring MIDI styles played by human beings, just as solos for melody creation. Eight and/or sexteen bars, that can be easily put together in RB to further editing would be a base to build from.
To support this, RB should be entirely re-written; as is, it unfortunately is much too clumsy and cumbersome to work with. The paradigm itself should be revised.
For all these reasons I don't see it happening any time soon either. Imagine the whish list petition: "change everything in Real Band".
Yes but this thread is about Biab STYLES that GENERATE tracks. Not prerecorded loops. The whole point of Biab is it's name. Band.In.A.Box as in trying to be similar to playing with live players. Biab gives you a slightly different version of a part every time you hit Play just like real players would.
You don't get that from loops. This is the advantage Jamstix has over EZDrums for example.
Real Tracks are exactly pre-recorded loops. They can't be more different then the available variations of the pre-recorded loops assigned to the style.
The only difference is the format: RTs are audio, MIDI is MIDI.
Guys, I have solved this problem. I bought: Jamstix3 EZDrummer2 EzKeys BIAB RB Reaper ST3 Kontact
as well as any other tools to feed my need.
There is pleasure indeed in integrating them all together for the final output. Looking back it is far cheaper than many hobbies and I am having a lot of fun.
Real Tracks are exactly pre-recorded loops. They can't be more different then the available variations of the pre-recorded loops assigned to the style.
Yes of course. That's my point Pepe.
This thread is about NOT using prerecorded loops or RT's because the OP wants better control. All I'm saying is yes better control is available just not by using Biab. You need a good DAW, high end VST's and some good physical controllers to make those VST's do what he wants.
I've been a pro musician all my life and I play drums, sax, bass, guitar, flute, and keyboards. I use my own experience as a working musician to make styles I would like to play along with. You might like them too.
Variety, different feels, dynamics and being able to use your vst's and kontakt libraries 'd be grand!
To me there's a contradiction here. Here it is:
1. Users want simple. 2. Simple is General Midi. 3. Biab is therefore based on GM. 4. The midi styles are GM. 5. GM does not allow for all the dynamics and expression you're talking about.<...>
Bob
I must respectfully disagree.
The only difference between General MIDI and any other MIDI is the patch numbers that correspond to patch names. There are no other differences between GMIDI and any other MIDI.
Grand piano is always patch #1, Rhodes #5, and so on.
The degree of expressiveness depends on the synth you are using. MIDI uses both velocity, expression, Note On, Note Release and others including the continuous controllers http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html for making expression.
The synth you are using can respond to any, a few, or all of these expressive devices. Some GMIDI synths respond to all, some non-GMIDI synths do not.
I repeat, the only difference between GMidi and non-GMIDI is that the voice names correspond to the same patch numbers. Note, I said voice names, not the voices themselves. Acoustic bass is 33, and I have one synth where the acoustic bass sounds like a cheap electric, and another that sound so good that you can hear the wood. Both are GM patch number 33. Some people make good synths, others not so good synths.
The reason for the GMIDI numbering system (and that's all it is) is so that a MIDI sequence played on one synth would play the same instruments on another.
If Patch number 28 on my synth was a clean guitar, and patch number 28 on your synth was a tuba, what I played wouldn't sound even close to right on your synth if I sent you the MIDI file. But if both synths are GM they would both play clean guitar. Now your clean guitar might sound like a Fender and might might be a Gibson because GMIDI doesn't regulate sounds, only patch names.
So dissing a synth because it is GM is nonsense. All you are saying is you don't like the patch numbering system, because that is the only thing GM defines.
Real Tracks are exactly pre-recorded loops. They can't be more different then the available variations of the pre-recorded loops assigned to the style.
The only difference is the format: RTs are audio, MIDI is MIDI.
As I see it, they're exactly the same.
Except in MIDI you can change a note without artifacts, do subtle changes of timing, add a little slide or a giant hammer on, and do thousands of other things to that a that you cannot do with audio loops.
You can also erase a measure and put in a song-specific lick without changing the sound of the instrument.
Want to change the vibrato pitch or speed? Put a fall at the end of a note or scoop up to pitch? Easy peasy with MIDI.
And if the instrument is polyphonic there are so many other things you can do with MIDI that you can't do with loops. Change the inversion of a chord, add even more notes to the chord with the same sounding instrument, detune note or two or stretch tune the chord, and so on.
How about change the instrument? If the lead guitar is a jazz box and you would rather have a edgy clean sound, click it's done. The sound of the instrument is changed. Want that acoustic piano to be a Rhodes? That guitar to be a clav? That acoustic bass to be a Fretless? Those brass parts to be played on saxes? That ride cymbal to be a cowbell? That snare to be brushed or a rimshot? And thousands of others click, or click and drag and it's done. Can't do any of this with audio loops.
And all the changes you do in MIDI are done without adding any artifacts to the tone.
There is a big difference in the way audio and MIDI can be edited today. Perhaps not tomorrow, but today you can do literally thousands of expressive things with MIDI that you cannot do with audio loops.
Not to dis the Real Tracks. The tone and musicianship is great, and there is true genius to what PG has done with them. If you just want to hear what others play, they are fine. But if you want to play with your BiaB toy more deeply, MIDI is the way to go. Thankfully PG gives us both so we all can be happy.
Except in MIDI you can change a note without artifacts, do subtle changes of timing, add a little slide or a giant hammer on, and do thousands of other things to that a that you cannot do with audio loops.
You can also erase a measure and put in a song-specific lick without changing the sound of the instrument.
Want to change the vibrato pitch or speed? Put a fall at the end of a note or scoop up to pitch? Easy peasy with MIDI.
And if the instrument is polyphonic there are so many other things you can do with MIDI that you can't do with loops. Change the inversion of a chord, add even more notes to the chord with the same sounding instrument, detune note or two or stretch tune the chord, and so on.
How about change the instrument? If the lead guitar is a jazz box and you would rather have a edgy clean sound, click it's done. The sound of the instrument is changed. Want that acoustic piano to be a Rhodes? That guitar to be a clav? That acoustic bass to be a Fretless? Those brass parts to be played on saxes? That ride cymbal to be a cowbell? That snare to be brushed or a rimshot? And thousands of others click, or click and drag and it's done. Can't do any of this with audio loops.
And all the changes you do in MIDI are done without adding any artifacts to the tone.
There is a big difference in the way audio and MIDI can be edited today. Perhaps not tomorrow, but today you can do literally thousands of expressive things with MIDI that you cannot do with audio loops.
Not to dis the Real Tracks. The tone and musicianship is great, and there is true genius to what PG has done with them. If you just want to hear what others play, they are fine. But if you want to play with your BiaB toy more deeply, MIDI is the way to go. Thankfully PG gives us both so we all can be happy.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob, even if both your interventions to some may sound as "blowing your own horn", I, for one, feel that were necessary to clarify what alternative styles in MIDI format are, and why they might even be preferable to Real Tracks in many cases.
Thank you for let us having a piece of your mind and your valuable insight on the matter.
If Real Band was written to work with MIDI styles the way Toontrack products work with their MIDI "styles", it'll become the leading program for composers, studio pros and/or aficionados looking to make their own backing tracks. The link I've shown earlier pointing to the Tracktion Waveform DAW program was to "inspire" PG Music to see if they could work into taking BIAB and specially RB into the next level, using a new paradigm that could embrace just as well both sides of making music, meaning taking Real Tracks AND MIDI Supertracks and present'em in a way they could be managed to create entire sequences of several parts using different tracks driving either VST instruments or hardware expanders in a way that'll be easier to the musician to use.
How anyone can even suggest MIDI intruments sound anywhere NEAR a real instrument being played by a real person is totally beyond me!
I have used MIDI for over 30 years, I have used guitar and bass emulation programs, I have used guitar and bass synths (including Kontakt, RealStrat Real Guitar and most of the other bass and guoitar synths/emulators), I have used keyboard techniques to re-create guitar playing...however none, and I mean NONE of these comes close to the real deal.
At best they get you by and worked okay in the past when audio and the manipulation of same was very primitive.
About the only instrument genre that is "okay" with MIDI is drum/percussion and even then it needs to be a really good synth to pull it off.
And the attitude that "it's good enough for audiences who probably cannot tell the difference" is quite arrogant and disrespectful IMO. Audiences CAN tell the difference, no matter how "tricked up" the MIDI part is. And THAT is the salient point. MIDI guitars and basses NEED to be "tricked up" with all sorts of controls to even get close to sounding authentic. The real thing, well, it just "is"!
How anyone can even suggest MIDI intruments sound anywhere NEAR a real instrument being played by a real person is totally beyond me!
You do it by giving a MIDI instrument to a real person and recording the MIDI data of what what he/she's playing. That's what Toontrack does with both EZKeys and EZDrummer, and the outcome is pretty good, I may add. For the record, I own both EZDrummer and EZKeys with many MIDI styles for both products, so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about here.
Inherently, all keyboard-based instruments and sounds plus the drums and most percussion instruments sound very convincing when a human being is doing the playing, even through MIDI. Other instruments as guitars, reeds and horns are more tricky to make'em sound convincing and even impossible in certain situations, but nonetheless completely useful to make a demo of your song well enough to give a clear idea to other musicians how to play their parts, vibe-wise.
I've been re-visiting some MIDI-only Smooth Jazz styles in BIAB and some are OK but others are dull, lifeless and mechanic, as they seem to be written with a the note-by-note data entry mode, so there's no dynamics whatsoever. That's exactly why many people avoid'em like the bubonic plague, and TBH, I don't blame'em one single bit for that.
Unfortunately, I don't think PG Music would swing their R&D into this direction anytime soon. I'm sure they put it together with the 64-bit overhaul!
How anyone can even suggest MIDI intruments sound anywhere NEAR a real instrument being played by a real person is totally beyond me!<...>
Depends if you are a good musician AND good at MIDI or not. If you have a good MIDI sound module and a good player you get good music.
But you have to dig into MIDI and learn how to use it, as you do your musical instrument if you want to sound 'real'. Like the drum, MIDI is easy to use, almost any can play with it. But like the drums, it takes practice and learning to play it well.
Every synthesizer since the DX7 has MIDI at its heart.
And you can even fool musicians with their own home instruments.
Examples:
I was playing in a country club lounge and doing an improvised trumpet solo on my wind MIDI controller. A trumpet player came out of the dining room where he could hear us but not see us to see who was sitting in on trumpet.
I was playing a party. Wife was outside, husband who is a gigging guitarist was inside. This was before I started to bring my guitar to the gig. I was playing a Santana song on my wind MIDI controller and the guitarist came out to see who was sitting in with us on guitar
I posted a clip of my playing on wind MIDI controller on the Gibson/Epiphone forum. I didn't tell them it was MIDI, but asked them for opinions. I got a few dozen replies including one that said it was "Jeff Beck Like" and nobody posted that it sounded like a MIDI guitar. Then after a few dozen comments I came clean and told them it was a MIDI performance. More comments came in about how it sounded like a real guitar, and only one said there was something about the use of the trem that sounded funny but he couldn't put his finger on it.
MIDI performances CAN and DO sound like a real musician IF a real musician creates the MIDI performance and uses a decent synth module.
"...at the 1983 Winter NAMM show, a Sequential Circuits Prophet-600 talked to a Roland JX-3P and MIDI went mainstream. Since then, MIDI has become embedded in the DNA of virtually every pop music production (yes I stole that line from Alan Parsons, but I don't think he'll mind)..."
"…Today you can easily record 100 tracks of digital audio on a basic laptop, so MIDI may seem irrelevant in the studio. Yet MIDI remains not only viable, but valuable, because it lets you exploit today's studio in ways that digital audio still can't. ...
Deep editing. Digital audio allows for broad edits, like changing levels or moving sections around, and editing tools such as Melodyne are doing ever more fine-grained audio surgery. But MIDI is more fine grained still: You can edit every characteristic of every performance gesture: dynamics, volume, timing, the length and pitch of every note, pitch-bend, and even which sound is being played. MIDI data can tell a piano sound what to play, or if you change your mind, a Clavinet patch. With digital audio, changing the instrument that plays a given part requires re-recording the track….but MIDI can do much more…"
Quotes from Craig Anderton in Electronics Musician Magazine
If Alan Parsons and Craig Anderton think MIDI sounds real, you are getting expert opinions from a couple of the well-known people in the industry.
And I am sure Anderton et al, would all agree that MIDI guitars, yes are close, sometimes! And then only using the best sound emualations (not GM)! However they are NEVER the same as the real thing. Go ahead, ask them!
And @ Notes Norton - I've heard your stuff. As in demos of your tracks, and they are quite obviously MIDI tracks. The live clips of your duo playing are quite obviously MIDI tracks. And they sound like it! Sort of like an arranger keyboard. Creates background noise at a gig, and for the most part is pleasant. However folks give it the same respect they would elevator music!
Whether played by you (or someone else )dress it up anyway you like, create any sort of argument you like. A real instrument played by a real musician is always better (even with basic comping) than the best MIDI created track! JMO of course.
As I recall from an explanation several years ago, Notes Norton is intentionally not using the best possible MIDI sounds in his online demos (plus the files are compressed). He admirably uses something more 'average' so as not to over-hype his product. As you know, MIDI has no sound of its own, thus MIDI sound quality is heavily dependent upon the synth chosen.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I'm pretty sure when I set up with my keyboard, computer, and amp as a one-man band, no one is going to come up to me and complain that the sax player doesn't sound like a real sax player, because, well, there is no sax player.
And if they did, I would just politely ask them to take it up with the sax player. Oh, wait...
Because it's just me and my keyboard and backing tracks...
That doesn't mean I won't try to get close to the best sound I can, but it's pretty clear that it's all electronic. And if they don't like it, then they can hire a 10-piece live band to ensure everything is "real".
And if folks are having a good time, then that to me is what counts. And if purists complain that it's not "real", well, they are clearly in the wrong place; I don't know what they were expecting coming to a one-man band show. And of course, if you do fool some of the purists because sometimes it does sound "real", then they just get mad at you anyway because you fooled them.
And the fact of the matter is this...for most of us here, I suspect very few are going to have a hit record, most are not making a living at it, and most are mainly going to play for family and friends or at local venues where folks already know you anyway. Getting stressed over MIDI versus real just gets you stressed; who need that in your life.
So, I just say, everybody get on the floor and dance and have a good time; sing along if you wish, you know the words.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA
You have made a very good point but there is an equally strong point of commercial importance
That is, just imagine the complexity of having a barebones edition and then all the separate add-on parts that we will choose individual and different combinations
I agree that some parts I dont and never have used but I would like to think that one day I might
I also think that by by being virtually a one size fits all woudl bring the overall cost down anyway
PG Music has given us a pretty complete product that generally meet the need of a great many of it's users - there are areas which can be improved by external programs if your requirement is for a higher level in these areas
I too would like a bigger and better selection of styles even though we have a vast number ( many of which could be replaced by improved styles and "styles" with one instrument change- which we can do ourselves)- I do not want to copy the greats or sound like them - I want to create my own music drawing on many influences but trying to make it my own
When using styles I use the Hybrid function to tailor the styles to fit my ideal of what I want - so useful
We all have different set ups using Band in a Box and my setup is that I play sax and wind controller with a pianist so I use BB for just Drums - Bass - Guitar backing. I guess this is a popular combination, but I still experiment with other features
I get only good comments on the quality, with many people saying they thought it was studio made backing tracks
The reasons I use BB are many - it is a great educational tool - it is a great practice/rehearsal tool - a great backing track maker and as my venues increaingly will not pay for more than 2/3 musicians I can cover the costs whilst we enjoy ourselves
Realtracks - Midi - (Real)Midi - Super tracks etc are fine and all have a part to play - I dont want everything done for me I want to put my own mark on what I am doing
From the start of BB with a handful of floppies = 6 or so Mb's(we thought it was amazing then) to look at it now and each year it never ceases to go on amazing me
And I am still finding out more about BB even though I have been using it for some twenty seven years jazzman
Last edited by Jazzman; 04/18/1712:20 AM.
BIAB - RealBand - 2022 Windows 10 64 Zoo computer with 7i processor- SSD 1TB -2TB HDD Roland keyboards
Yes, my demo files are done on the mediocre plug-in soft synth that PG provided at the time. I could have put them on the best sounds of my array of modules, but then if someone bought them and played them on the Coyote or whatever, they might think I misrepresented the product. Plus they are recorded as mp3 files - some with a low bit rate of 32kbps because back then people used dial-ups.
I'm thinking about re-doing them with a Ketron and higher bitrate because things are better now, but it's finding the time. We are gigging doing 4-5 one-nighers per week in the season and 2-3 in the off season, and I'm also trying to make more MIDI styles and Fake Disks that can use either MIDI or RT styles. (I haven't watched a single TV show since the late 1980s)
And if MIDI sounds fake, than the majority of keyboard parts you hear on hit records and plenty of the other instruments sound fake to you as well.
But that wasn't my point.
My point is expression is 100 times more important than the sound. And MIDI allows you to customize the expression. MIDI allows you to change the expression to whatever you want it to be. It allows you to manipulate the music to say what you want it to say.
Yes, our promo video sounds MIDI-ish, and most of the songs definitely have BiaB in there somewhere. I've added some song specific licks and kicks in them to make them sound like the songs I'm representing, and not sound like someone using an arranger keyboard or BiaB live accompaniment. What I've done to them you couldn't do this with RealTracks.
Plus, we have been working steadily since 1985 and get more work and charge higher prices than those duos playing 'real instruments' with a drum machine.
The public doesn't give a @!#&% whether your sounds are MIDI or "real", they want to hear the music the way they want to hear it.
Now the RealTracks sound great, as a musician I appreciate good tone. But I am also a pro musician and know what the public wants. And what the audience wants is actually more important than what I want.
You can play for yourself, you can play for other musicians or you can play for the general public. If you are good enough, you'll get the audience you asked for.
If the RT fits the bill perfectly, I'll use them. Sometimes I'll use RT or some RT instruments on songs, especially jazz standards that are chord/melody based instead of riff based like a lot of modern pop music.
But most modern pop music is riff based and any auto-accompaniment style is generic by design. With MIDI I can modify the BiaB output and put the riffs and kicks in.
I repeat because it's important, the public doesn't care if the sound is MIDI. They want to hear and feel the music. Try doing James Brown's "I Got You (I Feel Good)" with a real track and tell me how many people are going to dance to it. Or thousands of other songs that need something that identifies them.
You can't do this or thousands of other songs with RealTracks, but you can manipulate MIDI tracks to do this. We do this song and the crowd loves it.
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This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
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SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
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