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Hi everybody,
I intend to buy a new desktop computer sometime soon and I'm a bit lost as things have changed so much since I got my last one 7 years now.
Do I really need to get one with a soundcard as a lot have onboard sound nowadays? I will be running band in a box and realband, but will not be hooking anything up to the computer other than a microphone to record my voice, as I will be using the midi styles and realtracks most of the time.
If you think that I can get by with the onboard sound is it possible to place a cable from the line-in on back of computer to lie outside the front of computer so that I can hook microphone to that without having to fiddle at back of computer if trying to hook microphoen up? Is there a name for this type of cable in case store doesn't know what I am on about?
Many Thanks for your Kind Help.
regards
Jan
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jan..re on board sound..
ive used it to show friends with no money what can be
done with it..thats what i used on my rough motorshop song
on my mota site ..used all guerrilla no cost gear.
but i dont recommend it.
there are many inexpensive interfaces these days.
at a MINIMUM I WOULD GET SOMETHING LIKE A TASCAM INTERFACE I
saw tother day for 100 buks or so.
eg us122. cos you might need the low latency monitoring.
whats your puter budget ??
for budget i recommend amd phenom 2 quad with at least 2 gigs ram
and two 32 mb cache 7200 rpm drives.
such should last you a looooong time.
if your rich just get a i7 system..same drives.
i7's are loverly.
Last edited by manning1; 11/03/09 03:57 PM.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Jan, One of the things that you need to consider is what kind of microphone. Most sound cards have a microphone input on them, but that is usually reserved for something like voice chat or voice recognition software, and not quality music. If you're going to use a good mic, and you can get some rather nice mics for less than $100 in either Dynamic or Condenser, you're going to need a mic preamp. You might consider something like this: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pro...ndle?sku=241736This gives you two microphones, and a USB audio interface. The interface is the important part because that's how you're going to get the high quality sound into the computer, and with a good pair of monitors, how you'll get it out, as well. Although I'm not familiar with Phonic, this is an inexpensive way to get where you want, although it's Firewire, and you would need to correct Firewire interface on the computer. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pro...kage?sku=502741If you can afford it, this is about $500 plus shipping, but the interface here: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pro...face?sku=583089and the recording bundle here: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-BX5a-Monitor-and-Mic-Package?sku=582250would give you an interface in and out of the computer, two different mics, monitors to listen to everything, and also headphones to listen to when you're tracking, stands and cables. Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Hi Jan,
FWIW: Not withstanding the expert opinions above, I would advise waiting to see what you are getting out of your new onboard sound module before investing in a new card. I say this because I had the same reservations that you have expressed. My new computer has the Realtek onboard chip and I was pleasantly surprised to say the least. I can't tell any difference between it and the SB Audigy (sp?) that I was using.
However, it was necessary for me to purchase a USB midi cable for keyboard input. I already had an AudioBuddy preamp which as stated above you would need.
Good luck on your upgrade.
Don S.
Last edited by Curmudgeon; 11/03/09 06:24 PM.
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Quote:
Do I really need to get one with a soundcard as a lot have onboard sound nowadays?
YES. If you don't have a soundcard, you will not get any sound.
If you want the best sound and you want to interface, get something like the TASCAM US-122 or better. For that you will also need a USB port, of course
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Thank you all very much for all your very helpful replies.
Currently I am using a creative card and it gives me the option to record "what you hear" which is very useful when I want to record a number of midi tracks to one audio track.
Does anyone know if the onboard sound or the Tascam will also give me this option?
Once again thank you all again.
Kind Regards
Jan
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Creative cards call it "what you hear"; most other sound cards call it "stereo mix".
I don't know about the Tascam, but that's the feature you will need to look for. The onboard soundcards generally support this, but not all of them. On some systems (under Vista, anyway; don't know about Windows 7), they hid the "stereo mix" feature and you had to unhide it to enable it. All that was done on the sound settings page of control panel.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 8TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 11TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting and construction)
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Jan,
Most likely not. I'm not even sure that the Creative card will record the mic input along with the wave files being played back (although it might.)
I would ask you WHY you want to record everything to one audio track, though? Once you do that, you're locked into a single file which means no editing without destroying everything. Since you have RealBand, you can record each midi track to it's own audio track, and then lay down your vocal track. When you do that, given the second package I described to you, you would be able to output the audio from the MIDI tracks (if you're using an onboard synth) or the audio recorded from an outboard hardware synth previously, play it back through either the headphones, or the monitors, and then lay down a new track on for your vocals.
Since RealBand should support up to 48 individual tracks, you have a LOT of room for MIDI and Audio, and then vocals, and even vocal harmonies, guitars, or other acoustical instruments, on top of the midi stuff.
There is a lot you can do.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Gary,
What I usually do when recording a song is edit the midi tracks first (sort out the volume and the panning) then transfer the lot to an audio track using the creative card option "what you hear"
I then add my vocal track to a separate audio track, then find the balance in volume between the 2 audio tracks and after this is done mix the lot down to a final stereo audio track.
Am I doing something wrong here, is it better but maybe slower to have a separate audio track for each midi track?
Seems I have a lot to learn yet.
Regards
Jan
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Jan,
I think that you'll find that most people will put each instrument on it's own track. While the volume and balance of each track can be set via midi, I normally will center them in a stereo image, and then do my volumes and panning in the audio track. That way, if I don't like something, I can change it there, instead of being limited to already having it in one audio track. Plus, you can add reverb, compression, as well as other audio effects to an individual instrument via the plugs in for the audio tracks. So, if I wanted to push the drums 'back' I would add a little reverb to just the drum track. I might want to put some compression, a limiter, or maybe another effect on a guitar track. I can also copy and paste an audio track from one instrument, and detune it slightly, or move it a couple of milliseconds to give an interesting effect to that sound. You can't do that easily in MIDI when you've already recorded the audio along with other stuff.
It is slower, usually, to record each midi track as a separate audio track. Of course, if you're using a DXi or VSTi synth as your sound source, you should be able to 'render' each file to audio faster than you can record the actual audio. Of course, if you're using a hardware synth, or have been using Sound Fonts on your Creative Card, you can't 'render,' you can only record. So, yeah, if I have a 3 minute song with ten midi tracks, it's going to take me 45 minutes or more just to do the recording. However, I think it's worth it.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Quote:
So, if I wanted to push the drums 'back' I would add a little reverb to just the drum track.
Surely that would fatten the sound and bring it more forward, Gary? I could be quite wrong but what I do is lower the volume on the drums and treat the various track volumes as if looking vertically from the top of the VU meter down. I.E. the lower the volume, the further back the instrument is. It works for me.
Anyway...
Jan, I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. There is more than one way to skin a rabbit but I think you are making things complicated for yourself. Let me explain, unless you are going for the 'Wall of Sound' effect with every instrument possible, with 48 tracks you have more than enough room to play with for the majority (maybe 90%) of possible combinations, excluding orchestral (in which case Garritan would probably be a better programme for your purposes). Simply record each instrument to its own track and, when you have recorded all, THEN do your mixing and mastering and final rendering, not before. It sounds to me like you are used to the old fashioned method of 'bouncing' from the analogue days of maybe a 4 track recorder? This software is digital and doesn't need that kind of work usually. NOI.
As to whether the TASCAM I suggested would enable you to mix down - yes, in all probability but it just would not be worth the hassle. The TASCAM is a great Audio/MIDI interface for both input and output and it is an external soundcard but you should find that the internal sound card is more than adequate for the internal operations onboard of your computer. I do everything very simply, inside but use the TASCAM interface for input when recording and for playback.
Hope that helps
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Sam,
I'm sure there are some good references on mixing available online, and I'm also sure that others on this forum could do a better job of answering that question for you than I can.
But, do this. Think of a large room. If the drums are up close to you, you're going to hear them 'directly,' but if you were to move them back a bit, you would hear them, and you would also hear the reverb from them as the room contributed to reflecting the sound back to you. So, you can add the reverb effect and it'll seem to move the drums backwards a bit from you. You can also lower the volume of the drum track slightly to help that illusion. But, in the long run, remember, you are listening through only two speakers for a stereo track, and there is no depth perception. So, you have to 'fake it.'
If anyone disagrees with me, or can explain this better, I'd like to hear it, please.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Thanks for that explanation, Gary  I had never tried that but it does somehow make sense
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Sam, Gary is right on the money and this is a well-known trick to increase the depth of the soundstage.
When I use this, I do something just slightly different; I set up a send on each track where I want to use reverb. I put the reverb on a return for the same bus, with the reverb effect set to fully wet.
Then, to place items forward/backward in the soundstage - I will vary the source track dry level, with the track send level - effectively a dry/wet mix setting where I try to keep my original mix volumes the same. If you don't reduce the dry level simultaneously with the track wet level, then the track effectively gets louder. This is key for making piano tracks sound 'real', as if the piano is on a stage, instead of an in-your-face highly panned stereo track. Actually, I should note that panning is key to making this effect happen - reduce the stereo spread of a sound as you move it farther back in the mix, but you can still have it panned. Hopefully the difference is understood.
If you want something to be at the front of the mix, make it mostly dry and ensure the levels are slightly higher than something farther back in the mix.
There are some other tricks you can do to give 'height' to your mix, even though again it's just two speakers.
An old-school trick to make a sound have some movement up/down in the mix is to put a high pass filter on the sound and gradually move the cutoff frequency from low to high frequencies. This can give the impression of moving 'up'.
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Thank you very much for explaining that. I learn something new every day!
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Got it! Thanks Scott Both tracks are BEAUTIFUL!! You should be a professional SOUND engineer Does it need to be quite so complicated as you suggested with regard to the looping of the reverb effect? Can it not be done also by simply increasing the reverb on that track?
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Quote:
Got it! Thanks Scott
Both tracks are BEAUTIFUL!! You should be a professional SOUND engineer
Does it need to be quite so complicated as you suggested with regard to the looping of the reverb effect? Can it not be done also by simply increasing the reverb on that track?
By 'looping' do you mean putting it on a 'send/return' loop? I do it that way because I can route many sounds through the same reverb.
That does one practical thing, and one thing that just feels right: 1. It saves CPU - and those long reverb tails chow down on CPU like no tomorrow. 2. It feels like using a hardware reverb in a hardware-based mix session.
Keep in mind that this is not 'MIDI' reverb which is happening at the soundcard. I seem to recall the PG mixer applets have a 'reverb' knob for midi tracks which uses whatever reverb is loaded into the MIDI soundcard (if so equipped). I haven't used that methodology for many years, as I prefer my 'golden reverb', Ariesverb, over any other reverb that I've tried out - soundcard and plugin based.
This also allows me to put a whole chain of effects in the loop. Very often, I will put an instance of Bionic Delay in front of the reverb. That delay emulates an old tape-based delay. One can get instant Brian Eno-like ambient textures with simply those two items in a chain. They both eat up CPU, so it's best to try to conserve CPU by putting them in an effects send/return loop - than putting them on each track independently. I also think there's some advantage to a getting a more realistic output of the reverb by letting the signals mix in the bus before the effect, than each going to it independently.
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Hi again, I have been looking at some audio interfaces such as the m audio fast pro below http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=68482&gclid=CJ-Nxsmd950CFeZr4wodQRNAqwBut I don't think it has the "stereo mix" as Jford calls it in his post (and to me "what you hear" in my present creative card) as stated on this site below. http://forums.m-audio.com/showthread.php?p=47204 I should say that a lot of the time I mess around with cubase and that is the main reason why I want to be able to record the midi tracks to an audio file using my present creative card "what you hear" option. I do have real band but at the moment I'm more comfortable with the cubase software for doing recordings. Just would love to have this feature in the audio interface when I do decide to buy one. I'd be grateful if anyone else who uses cubase on here would let me know how they handle the conversion from midi tracks to audio within the cubase program. kind regards Jan
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Jan, Couple of things. 1. MIDI is just computer information, you need a synthesizer to reproduce the sound. The Creative card has several different options for the synthesizer, the onboard sounds, which are garbage, the SoundFont capability, which allows you to load SoundFont samples into the computer memory and play those back. Some of those are very good. Then, you may have 'Software Synthesizers' like the Roland VSC DXi or the Coyote Forte DXi, which will use any sound card. 2. You may also wish to use an external hardware synth, like the Ketron SD2. It's more expensive, but the sounds are much better. 3. Using Real Band, those files are already audio files. Depending on what kind of synth you're using, you may not need to record them. Or you might. Using the Creative Card or the Sound Font, yes, you can use what What U Hear to record those sounds to audio. In fact, you will need to find some way to output that information to record it. Another option would be to run cables from the output of the sound card into the input of the audio interface, but since this is a new computer, it's unlikely that you're going to be moving the card. Next, if the new computer has a 32 bit operating system, you should be able to use the Software Synths, like the Roland VSC or Coyote Forte DXi (which I think works on 64 bit machines as well). Using those, within Band In A Box, or RealBand, you have the ability to 'render' those to an audiAo file. What that means is that computer takes the information present in the samples, and creates the audio file for you, without even having to play the song. For example, listen to the song below. www.catsmeowcafe.com/Music/NiteTest2.WMAThis song was created using a Render feature in Band In A Box. I used the Coyote Forte DXi synth and Real Tracks. The piano melody was created using the Forte synth, and everything else was Real Tracks. Once I got what I wanted, I went to the Audio menu, selected Render MIDI to Stereo Wav file, etc. I was able to save the file name, and I was able to use the check boxes in there to make it render each instrument to a separate file track. By the way, it took me LONGER to find a halfway decent style for that song then it did to actually record and mix the song. Total time, start to finish, for this song was about 20 minutes! I, of course, already had the BIAB file for it. Then, I went into RealBand, and I dragged those tracks from Windows Explorer right onto the track I wanted them on. Finally, from there, I opened up the mixer, and added some DX Effects, played with the mixing a bit, and did some Audio Editing on the trumpet track to lower the volume when the piano was playing. While I *did* use a sound card, it was ONLY to listen to what I was doing. Using the Tascam, speakers and headphones I pointed out earlier in this thread would give you the same thing, and it would also let you listen. I did NOT use the 'What U Hear' or Stereo Wave Mix of the sound card, in fact, the sound card played NO FUNCTION at all in creating these files, only playing them back. But, you must have a DXi synth, like the Coyote Forte. That does work on 64 bit Operating Systems, by the way. I hope this explains some of the ways that you can record internal synths without actually having to have a Creative Card in your new computer. Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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