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I had 6-7 of my ex co-workers there and 2 were hit directly. They are in law enforcement and helped save a large group of people to find hard cover, while the bullets were raining down on the metal awning overhead. Those 2 are in stable condition.
Injured and bleeding, their training kicked in and they were able to direct a large crowd of people to cover.
Several of them went back into the line of fire to gather more people who were also injured and helped them get out of the line of fire.
It takes someone special, with a head on their shoulders to do just that. Fight or flight is the natural response, but luckily they were at the concert and their years of training kicked in and saved several strangers from being killed.
I am proud to call them family.
The Hotel Security/LVMPD did an outstanding job identifying the threat quickly and putting an end to the tragedy.
Until the day comes when we can read people's minds, these type of crimes will continue, unfortunately.
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eddie1261
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Until the day comes when we can read people's minds, these type of crimes will continue, unfortunately. And there you have it. Tell me to day who will kill 100 people in 2021, and I will say "Take his gun in late 2019 so he can't do that in 2020. People have now been taught to conflate rights and privileges. Owning a gun is a right. Driving a car is a privilege. In 2016, just under 40,000 people were killed in or by cars. In 2016, just over 15,000 people were killed by guns, 383 in mass shootings. In both cases, that is far too many. However, I have yet to hear anybody want to ban cars. Data and statistics cannot lie. Only emotional arguments are open to interpretation. Those who cry "We need gun control" don't understand that we HAVE gun control. We need PEOPLE control. When you figure out how to legislate a conscience into people, let us know. And now in the spirit of letting this die, I will no longer reply.
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John, John, John, There are so many examples around the world where modern countries have fixed this problem by severely restricting or outright banning certain guns. And in every single case it has worked to dramatically reduce gun violence! Please explain Chicago to us. The most restrictive gun laws in the country along with NYC and DC, and the highest gun violence anywhere. Worse than Afghanistan in a war zone. And the whole idea that having guns in your home or on your person makes you safer is just false propaganda spread by the NRA and their supporters. Far more innocents are killed every year by accidents or in acts of passion than bad guys breaking into your house. And this argument that banning guns means only bad guys will have them is totally wrong! If guns are illegal..... then yes, only bad guys will have them. And I get so tired of hearing how people can kill with cars or knives. I get so tired of people telling me that I should give up my guns because they don't like guns. It goes both ways.
And background checks? What a joke! I can walk into a gun show in any major American city on pretty much any weekend and, without a background check, waltz right out with an arsenal of weapons built for a single purpose...to kill people. I can be a violent felon and still buy my gun at a gun show. Hell, I can even buy it online, with NO BACKGROUND CHECK AT ALL!
That is absolutely NOT TRUE. Not a single gun in a gun show (except antiques) are sold without an IBGC. The dealer could go to jail and lose his license for selling guns in that manner. I don't think you have ever been to a gun show. That one paragraph exhibits an astounding degree of ignorance of the facts. Oh, you say you want an AR-15 for target practice? I say the lives of other citizens far outweigh your "right" to own a weapon of mass destruction. I don't care how good you think you are. Maybe my hobby is small nuclear devices or I just like to dabble in a little amateur chemistry producing toxic nerve agents. Well, guess what? The good of society outweighs my desire for my hobby! NOPE, not even close. Wrong again. Your feelings do NOT trump my 2nd amendment constitutional right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. All of the lame arguments are so easy to take apart but lemme just finish with a simple summary. The gun issue in the USA is NOT about 2nd amendment (it is for militia anyway and not personal ownership). And it is not about freedom from tyranny (your silly AR-15 will be no match for soldiers with more modern weaponry anyway). Not about personal protection (long guns and especially assault rifles are not what you use to defend yourself against a break-in). And..... yep... wrong again. On every point. If you think you don't use an AR-15 for self defense, or that it's not a good match-up against other weapons, you really need to get informed. It's one of the most popular rifles ever made and for a really good reason. It happens to be a very easy and reliable rifle to use for hunting, target shooting, and yes, in close quarter self defense situations. And..... it's accurate as heck. Example..... shortly after NC relaxed it's gun laws to favor the law-abiding citizen over the criminal, three hood-rats decided to do a home invasion. It turned out that there was a 17 year old girl and a 15 year old boy at home. When he heard his sister yell, he grabbed the family AR-15 and charged the bolt. ( That means he loaded a bullet into the chamber making it ready to fire ) He confronted the 3 hood-rats and when they came at him he opened fire hitting several of them. One collapsed and died in the front yard of the house. The other was taken by his remaining hood-rat buddy to the local hospital for a gunshot wound. Both were arrested. The sheriff declined to press charges against the boy, instead praising him for his quick action with the rifle. He would probably been killed and his sister raped because the hood-rats had a list of prior felonies as long as their arms. They were bad dudes. But that Ar-15 personal defense rifle more than leveled the playing field. So don't even try to say the AR-15 isn't a good SD rifle. This story was national news due to NC just changing it's laws regarding self defense. I don't have time to properly address all your misinformation so I'll just cover two and leave you to soak in the rest of it. Explaining Chicago is the simplest one of all but I'll do it for you in case you are truly unable to figure it out. From Chicago you can drive a half hour in any direction except east and buy guns. Then you just turn the car around and drive back to Chicago! Not all that complicated. And regarding gun shows you absolutely do not require a background check to buy from anyone there who is not a registered dealer. It is called the gun show loophole; maybe you've heard of it? Likewise, you can buy online and there are gun nut websites that work a lot like Craigslist where thousands of such transactions occur, all with no background checks!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 10/03/17 01:00 PM.
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Thank you JohnJohnJohn for your honest thoughtful words on this awful topic.
It's really nice to know there are some (lots of) Americans with the same logic as we have here in the UK in that guns should only be in the hands of the police when needed.
Regards
Brian, there are a lot of us here who would love to see our country join the civilized world when it comes to guns. But we also still have a lot of people who practically worship these dangerous toys. And of course it all comes down to money. Sad but maybe we will catch up some day. Cheers!
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I don't have time to properly address all your misinformation so I'll just cover two and leave you to soak in the rest of it.
Explaining Chicago is the simplest one of all but I'll do it for you in case you are truly unable to figure it out. From Chicago you can drive a half hour in any direction except east and buy guns. Then you just turn the car around and drive back to Chicago! Not all that complicated.
And regarding gun shows you absolutely do not require a background check to buy from anyone there who is not a registered dealer. It is called the gun show loophole; maybe you've heard of it? Likewise, you can buy online and there are gun nut websites that work a lot like Craigslist where thousands of such transactions occur, all with no background checks!
The Chicago thing is an Illinois and other state's issue. Regarding your gun show information that is dependent on the state laws. Here we have to register our hand guns. If you sell it to another pistol permit owner you must notify the state that you sold it and they must register that gun. If you are missing a gun you must report it immediately otherwise you could be in deep doggie dodo if it is used in a crime. I will end my involvement in this thread by stating this: this gun issue as well as many other issues there are only two sides, the far right and the far left. Both sides say it is my way or the highway. Compromise is out of the question. Where is the middle ground? For instance as you know I am a gun owner however myself and other gun owners that I know do not always side with the NRA. For example we do not need or want silencers to be available to the public. Also I feel that I can respectfully disagree with the fine people on this side without making enemies and I hope that those who disagree with me feel the same. Over and out - MarioD
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eddie1261
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Gun laws are state specific. That Illinois thug who tries to buy a gun in Indiana still has to meet the criteria of Illinois when he fills out his forms and meet Illinois criteria. This does NOT resolve straw man sales, where people from Indiana buy guns for those thugs from Chicago for a fee and then hand the gun over. Those sales are already illegal. Similar in concept to Mario coming to visit me and buying a gun in Ohio through me, he would legally have to register than gun when he got back to NY to be law abiding in his state. Once again the issue is trying to legislate human behavior. It would be Mario's choice to follow the law of his state or not. That is already covered in current gun law. Nobody said you can't obtain guns illegally. If you choose to disobey the law, have at it. I prefer not to. I follow proper procedure. I don't know about other state, but her in Ohio you fill out forms when you buy at a gun show. Possibly in liberal California, where I believe even water pistols are illegal, it is different.
All I can control is me, and I am 100% legal in my gun ownership. If other choose to break the law, nobody can legislate against that. Law punishes. It dos not prevent. Current gun law, when followed, is just fine as it is. Continue to bash current gun law if it doesn't fit your anti-Trump agenda. These are the exact same gun laws that were in place when Obama was president, and his own city is the previously mentioned cesspool in Illinois.
Last edited by eddie1261; 10/03/17 02:55 PM.
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I don't have time to properly address all your misinformation so I'll just cover two and leave you to soak in the rest of it.
Explaining Chicago is the simplest one of all but I'll do it for you in case you are truly unable to figure it out. From Chicago you can drive a half hour in any direction except east and buy guns. Then you just turn the car around and drive back to Chicago! Not all that complicated.
And regarding gun shows you absolutely do not require a background check to buy from anyone there who is not a registered dealer. It is called the gun show loophole; maybe you've heard of it? Likewise, you can buy online and there are gun nut websites that work a lot like Craigslist where thousands of such transactions occur, all with no background checks!
The Chicago thing is an Illinois and other state's issue. The point is Chicago does not have a gun problem because they outlawed guns, rather, they have a gun problem because the bad guys who live there can easily hop in their cars, drive a few minutes and purchase guns. I know the gun crowd loves to point to Chicago as if somehow it proves gun laws don't work but all it proves is guns can still be obtained easily just minutes away. On the other hand, countries that have banned certain types of guns have seen dramatic decrease in the gun violence. I am a gun owner however myself and other gun owners that I know do not always side with the NRA. For example we do not need or want silencers to be available to the public. I know plenty of gun owners who share your reasonable view on silencers. They also support mandatory background checks on ALL gun purchases or transfers. So I think there is definitely middle ground that all could agree on but the NRA opposes all of it.
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I know that pointing out facts to the anti-gun folks won't change their minds because they tend to operate on emotions rather than facts.
The point about Chicago is that they do in fact, have the strictest gun laws in the country. Right up there with DC and NYC as well as a few other cities. Illinois is not a gun friendly state either. Neither is NY, CA, MD, and a few others. Having those super strict laws does NOTHING to stop the gun violence. In states where citizens have been returned their right to carry a firearm for personal protection, the crime rates tend to drop across the board. In NC, a perp can be shot by the homeowner when they are in the act of breaking in. The presumption by law is that the perp intended to harm the residents and they can act in self defense. No charges are to be filed when it's ruled to be a self defense situation and better yet, no one can file a lawsuit for wrongful death against the homeowners.
Blaming the surrounding states is a cop out. None, of the thugs from the hoods in their respective cities are going to legally buy guns in other states. Since 99% of them have a criminal history, the background check stops the sale in a legal gun shop. Anyone selling or transferring a pistol or other firearm without the proper paperwork is already violating the law.
The guns on the streets in the hands of thugs and criminals are illegal and have been stolen, with very few exceptions. The thugs are violating law just having the gun if they are felons, which most are. It's illegal to have and use a gun in a crime. It's illegal to rob, rape, do drive-bys, and murder.
So what additional law(s) do you think would actually solve this issue?
You should read some of the John Lott guns studies that show no correlation between the number of guns and violent crime with guns.
Another interesting statistic..... America is near the top when it comes to violent gun crime in the world. Fact. But, if you simply remove 4 cities from that statistic, NYC, Washington DC, New Orleans, and yep... Chicago, America falls to very near the bottom on that same list. Interesting.
this is a waste of time trying to convince you of the facts. I'm going to work.... with my 9mm in my holster.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I know that pointing out facts to the anti-gun folks won't change their minds because they tend to operate on emotions rather than facts.
The point about Chicago is that they do in fact, have the strictest gun laws in the country. Right up there with DC and NYC as well as a few other cities. Illinois is not a gun friendly state either. Neither is NY, CA, MD, and a few others. Having those super strict laws does NOTHING to stop the gun violence. In states where citizens have been returned their right to carry a firearm for personal protection, the crime rates tend to drop across the board. In NC, a perp can be shot by the homeowner when they are in the act of breaking in. The presumption by law is that the perp intended to harm the residents and they can act in self defense. No charges are to be filed when it's ruled to be a self defense situation and better yet, no one can file a lawsuit for wrongful death against the homeowners.
Blaming the surrounding states is a cop out. None, of the thugs from the hoods in their respective cities are going to legally buy guns in other states. Since 99% of them have a criminal history, the background check stops the sale in a legal gun shop. Anyone selling or transferring a pistol or other firearm without the proper paperwork is already violating the law.
The guns on the streets in the hands of thugs and criminals are illegal and have been stolen, with very few exceptions. The thugs are violating law just having the gun if they are felons, which most are. It's illegal to have and use a gun in a crime. It's illegal to rob, rape, do drive-bys, and murder.
So what additional law(s) do you think would actually solve this issue?
You should read some of the John Lott guns studies that show no correlation between the number of guns and violent crime with guns.
Another interesting statistic..... America is near the top when it comes to violent gun crime in the world. Fact. But, if you simply remove 4 cities from that statistic, NYC, Washington DC, New Orleans, and yep... Chicago, America falls to very near the bottom on that same list. Interesting.
this is a waste of time trying to convince you of the facts. I'm going to work.... with my 9mm in my holster. well, you have yet to point out any facts! I get that you love your guns and you are fearful so you feel you need your gun for protection. but here's a fun fact for you: only 0.04% of all gun murders in the US happen during home invasions; read that again...not 4%...not 0.4%...but 0.04%! and over a third of those are killed by their own gun that the criminal has either stolen or taken from them. and you are in the minority! 77% of all Americans do NOT own a gun! so let that sink in...over 3/4s of us do not feel compelled to shoot things nor do we believe bad guys are coming to get us nor do we have a cowboy complex that drives us to walk around with a firearm. the simple facts are shown in absolute clarity by all other modern countries where gun laws are much more stringent and the result is crystal clear...fewer guns means less gun violence. so obvious as to be common sense. Finally, I am quite familiar with Lott's work and it has been rejected by plenty of reputable sources including, - Rutgers sociology professor Ted Goertzel stated that "Lott's massive data set was simply unsuitable for his task", and that he "compar[ed] trends in Idaho and West Virginia and Mississippi with trends in Washington, D.C. and New York City" without proper statistical controls. He points out that econometric methods (such as the Lott & Mustard RTC study or the Levitt & Donohue abortion study) are susceptible to misuse and can even become junk science. - Hemenway, David (2006). Private guns, public health. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 9780472023820. - Ian Ayres, Yale Law School, and John Donohue III, Stanford Law School, "Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis," Stanford Law Review, 2003.[27] This study found a temporary increase in aggravated assaults. - Webster et al., "Flawed gun policy research could endanger public safety", American Journal of Public Health, 1997. - Jens Ludwig, Georgetown University, "Concealed-Gun-Carrying Laws and Violent Crime: Evidence from State Panel Data", International Review of Law and Economics, 1998. - Dan Black and Daniel Nagin, "Do 'Right-to-Carry' Laws Deter Violent Crime?" Journal of Legal Studies, (January 1998). - Hashem Dezhbakhsh and Paul H. Rubin, "Lives Saved or Lives Lost? The Effects of Concealed-Handgun Laws on Crime," The American Economic Review, 1998. - Mark Duggan, University of Chicago, "More Guns, More Crime," National Bureau of Economic Research, NBER Working Paper No. W7967, October 2000, later published in Journal of Political Economy. - David E. Olson and Michael D. Maltz, "Right‐to‐Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim‐Offender Relationships," The Journal of Law & Economics, 2001. This study found mixed results as to whether right-to-carry laws were associated with similar effects as reported by Lott and Mustard or not. - Grant Duwe, Tomislav Kovandzic, and Carlisle E. Moody, "The Impact of Right-to-Carry Concealed Firearm Laws on Mass Public Shootings" Homicide Studies 4 (2002). - Tomislav V. Kovandzic and Thomas B. Marvell, "Right-to-Carry Concealed Firearms and Violent Crime: Crime Control Through Gun Decontrol?" Criminology and Public Policy 2, (2003). - John J. Donahue III, Stanford Law School, 'The Final Bullet in the Body of the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis', Criminology and Public Policy, 2003. - Tomislav V. Kovandzic, Thomas B. Marvell and Lynne M. Vieraitis, "The Impact of “Shall-Issue” Concealed Handgun Laws on Violent Crime Rates: Evidence From Panel Data for Large Urban Cities" Homicide Studies (2005): 292-323. - Michael D. Maltz and Joseph Targonski, "Measurement and Other Errors in County-Level UCR Data: A Reply to Lott and Whitley," Journal of Quantitative Criminology June 2003: 199-206. - Lisa Hepburn, Matthew Miller, Deborah Azrael, and David Hemenway "The effect of nondiscretionary concealed weapon carrying laws on homicide", Journal of Trauma March 2004: 676-81. - Robert A. Martin Jr. and Richard L. Legault, "Systematic Measurement Error with State-Level Crime Data: Evidence from the “More Guns, Less Crime” Debate," Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency May 2005: 187-210. - Rosengart et al., "An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates," Injury Prevention 2005: 77-83. - Patricia Grambsch, "Regression to the Mean, Murder Rates, and Shall-Issue Laws," The American Statistician (2008). - Benjamin French and Patrick J. Heagerty, "Analysis of Longitudinal Data to Evaluate a Policy Change", Statistics in Medicine October 30, 2008: 5005-5025. This study concluded that "enacting a shall-issue law is associated with a weak but non-significant increase in firearm-related homicide rates." - John Donohue and Ian Ayres. "More Guns, Less Crime Fails Again: The Latest Evidence from 1977–2006" Econ Journal Watch (2009): 218–238. - Hoskin, Anthony (March 2011). "Household gun prevalence and rates of violent crime: a test of competing gun theories". Criminal Justice Studies. 24 (1): 125–136. doi:10.1080/1478601X.2011.544445. - Aneja, A.; Donohue, J. J.; Zhang, A. (29 October 2011). "The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws and the NRC Report: Lessons for the Empirical Evaluation of Law and Policy" (PDF). American Law and Economics Review. 13 (2): 565–631. doi:10.1093/aler/ahr009. - Wolfgang Stroebe, "Firearm possession and violent death: A critical review," Aggression and Violent Behavior, 2013. - Sripal Bangalore and Franz Messerli, "Gun Ownership and Firearm-related Deaths," The American Journal of Medicine, 2013. - Kesteren, John van; Dijk, Jan van; Mayhew, Pat (January 2014). "The International Crime Victims Surveys". International Review of Victimology. SAGE Publications. 20 (1): 49–69. doi:10.1177/0269758013511742. - Donald J. Lacombe and Amanda Ross, "Revisiting the Question 'More Guns, Less Crime?' New Estimates Using Spatial Econometric Techniques," Social Science Research Network, 2014. - Manski & Pepper, "How Do Right-to-Carry Laws Affect Crime Rates? Coping with Ambiguity Using Bounded-Variation Assumptions", Review of Economics and Statistics, 2015. - Steven N. Durlauf, Salvador Navarro, David A. Rivers, "Model uncertainty and the effect of shall-issue right-to-carry laws on crime," European Economic Review, 2016.
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With respect to Americans your Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms needs to come of age.
Written over two hundred years ago the right to own and use a gun has no place in this millennium.
Times change, society changes and human values change, it's no longer 1791, it's no longer the Wild West it's 2017.
Brian Cadoret
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You seem to forget one simple thing. That pesky second amendment.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Perhaps the most important 27 words ever written by man.
The second amendment is an individual right. It wouldn't matter if 99.99% of Americans were against gun ownership, that amendment, second only to your right to speak freely without fear against the government, is there to protect the rights of the few against the many. And please try not to compartmentalize me into what you think I am. You obviously don't have a clue who I am, what I fear or don't fear, or even why I choose to carry a pistol with me daily.
Yes Brian, the constitution was written over 200 years ago. You must remember that back then, citizens were allowed to own military style weapons and even cannon that were state of the art. That's no longer the case. Yes, society has changed but one thing has not, and that's human nature. And until all humans are kind and gentle souls who help lost kittens find their way home, we are faced with the reality, as Las Vegas has just shown, that evil, deranged people walk among us seeking victims to do harm to.
The folks who later wrote the constitution, went to war with the British King George, when the king and his minions attempted to disarm them. April 19, 1775. We won, and as a result, we choose to keep our guns as free men should and not surrender them to the state and live as serfs at the whim of the lords of the land and government officials.
Lets drop this because it's not getting anyone anywhere.... and go make some music.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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You seem to forget one simple thing. That pesky second amendment.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Perhaps the most important 27 words ever written by man.
The second amendment is an individual right. It wouldn't matter if 99.99% of Americans were against gun ownership, that amendment, second only to your right to speak freely without fear against the government, is there to protect the rights of the few against the many. And please try not to compartmentalize me into what you think I am. You obviously don't have a clue who I am, what I fear or don't fear, or even why I choose to carry a pistol with me daily.
Yes Brian, the constitution was written over 200 years ago. You must remember that back then, citizens were allowed to own military style weapons and even cannon that were state of the art. That's no longer the case. Yes, society has changed but one thing has not, and that's human nature. And until all humans are kind and gentle souls who help lost kittens find their way home, we are faced with the reality, as Las Vegas has just shown, that evil, deranged people walk among us seeking victims to do harm to.
The folks who later wrote the constitution, went to war with the British King George, when the king and his minions attempted to disarm them. April 19, 1775. We won, and as a result, we choose to keep our guns as free men should and not surrender them to the state and live as serfs at the whim of the lords of the land and government officials.
Lets drop this because it's not getting anyone anywhere.... and go make some music. That very same constitution originally deemed black people and women to be less than equal to white men but we were smart enough to fix that. And we will some day be smart enough to fix this too! With 77% of Americans not choosing to own guns and a new generation that is not steeped in a wild west mentality I suspect we will in fact repeal the 2nd amendment and replace it with something adults can agree on to improve our society. Sometimes you just have to move forward!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 10/04/17 09:43 AM.
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Here is an interesting article about guns: http://thepoliticalinsider.com/gun-contr...tm_medium=emailPS - for those outside the USA please stay out of this.
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Mario, Regarding your comment about people outside the US staying out of this... I'm not meaning to be irritating or pointing out the obvious, but these PG Music forums are 'outside the US' and world involvement in them is encouraged by PG Music. I support John's view from earlier in the thread. //Not a rant, just a suggestion//
I'm just a guy who loves music and nobody needs to listen to me or do as I request, but I would suggest this debate be brought to a close (at least on this forum).
We've been down the road on this topic multiple times before, and every time it has ended in name calling and loss of "virtual" friendships, as well as folks removing themselves from the forum (thereby depriving us of their musical knowledge). I believe in honest debate about important topics, but this one has always previously gotten ugly with a lot of hurt feelings.
My $0.02 worth and losing value every day. But just sayin', the end result has historically not been pretty.
//Suggestion over; carry on// Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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JJJ Have you actually READ ALL of those papers and studies? I picked 3 at random and scanned the rest for DATES (I’m not doing any more homework – my consultant rate is probably a little too steep). 1. - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1198/000313008X362446This first one only gives an abstract but even in those few words it tells me in they did the statistics BACKWARDS (a typical manipulation trick) essentially trying to prove a negative: H0: (i.e., the Null hypotheses they have is essentially): Murder rates of Shall Issues laws increased after Shall Issue Policy changes were implemented (note this should not include suicides but were, more later on that) H1: (i.e., the ALTERNATIVE hypothesis would then be) murder rates of Shall Issues laws decreased or stayed the same after Shall Issues The POWER (i.e., 1-beta) of any statistical test lies in the REJECTION of the null (i.e., H0). When you FAIL TO REJECT H0 that’s ALL you can say – “you failed to reject.” You can NOT say you ACCEPT the null you can only say there is no evidence AGAINST it. You can never say the H0 is statistically true. Even just the few studies I looked at, no I didn't read them all, show or discuss weak statistical correlations. One paper (one of those below) had even listed some Rho’s of .5, .6 or worse NONE (which tells me that those referenced studies themselves didn’t use NUMBERS, they were Qualitative studies, i.e., subjective studies, not Quantitative i.e., objective studies). Those small correlations are no better than coin flips of moon cycles causation. Truth in advertising: when I say I looked at a handful of those studies I mean I skimmed them. i.e., I read intro, assumptions, conclusions and skimmed the tables and data and results. NO I did not do a line by line verification of numbers, methods, statements, etc. like I would if I were peer reviewing them. 2. Next do a search on “Benjamin French and Patrick J. Heagerty, "Analysis of Longitudinal Data to Evaluate a Policy Change", Statistics in Medicine October 30, 2008: 5005-5025. This study concluded that "enacting a shall-issue law is associated with a weak but non-significant increase in firearm-related homicide rates." And you get their PDF (which includes suicides lumped in later as general homicides) Or try below to get PDF https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiI1aS00dfWAhVJ0oMKHR3dBXQQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.668.8730%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&usg=AOvVaw0R6ZRGJT-sWkkDKdZLdxGu 3. This one also includes suicides as a spate study which is good work but once you read it you realize it’s not a Shall Issue study before and after – it’s simply firearm OWNERSHIP and the suicides and homicides caused thereby. Get the PDF here https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwil6qmJ0tfWAhVp5oMKHfqxBCMQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crema-research.ch%2Fpapers%2F2014-07.pdf&usg=AOvVaw23svo-h5BGGxYxcUzQTWDa =================== The list you provided, I suspect is a bibliography from one such study or a google list? You didn’t critically read and digest all those did you? Are you a statistician (or mathematician or even a STEM researcher)? I think I used and referenced fewer articles/studies/papers in my Master’s thesis in Ops Research and I know I didn't critically digest and read them over night. Studies with own data (i.e., originally researched DOJ, FBI, and State crime statistics) tend to only have data up to mid 2000’s (admittedly by quick visual scan of pub. Dates listed). Not all states are Shall Issue (I’ll call it CCW for short) at that point in time or is too early have effect one way or the other for the newer adopters. Like the other “the science is final argument” most of those studies (all you have to do is just read intro in most of them to get the flavor) are done by those who want to show no improvement or negative impact of CCW on “murders” - and so they all seem to included category SUICIDE! Yes suicide by gun is a gun death – but someone that determined would run a hose from exhaust into car, or drives at high speed into to something solid, or hang themselves, or cut their wrists, or over dose on something, or… the firearm is not the cause it is simply a means. And worse for your and their argument: suicides by firearms is unrelated to CCW's laws, since the suicide (i.e., "murderer") could have previously OWNED the firearm. I note that TIME of ownership of a firearm was NOT included in these studies (when and how long was firearm owned – prior to and after CCW laws) and SHOULD have been a factor (i.e., a regression variable)! Besides states that finally had a policy change (i.e., instituted a CCW law) ALL already had laws to allow purchase of firearms and handguns. In other words the MAJORITY of folks that went out and obtained CCW (concealed carry) ALREADY OWNED firearms and handguns in particular, they just didn’t CARRY them in public. At least they didn’t carry them concealed Like in Here New Mexico a state that has been run by Democrats since 1912, when we became a State – allowed the CARRY (open carry) of firearms (AND YES tested multiple times in the NM Supreme Court) or carried concealed but unloaded, you can research the NM gun laws yourself . The below was BEFORE the NM Legislature passed its recent Conceal Carry law (and there other states that allowed open carry prior to Policy Change’s to allow Shall Issue): “Article II, § 6 of the Constitution of New Mexico provides: No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms. “ Bottom line passing a SHALL ISSUE (CCW) didn’t cause or force people who hated guns to go buy them and those that didn’t hate guns, for the most part, already HAD THEM. Larry PS Brian from Jersey Channel Islands, this is not a smirk, smack, flame, critique, finger pointing, nasty attack please imagine I'm talking calmly with a happy lilt in my voice: I don't think you truly understand WHY, I mean the actual true purpose, we in the U.S. have a 2nd Amendment. Please, take a pleasant boat ride across the channel and ask Parliament and the Royals in Great Britain if they can think of a reason why we might have 2nd Amendment. The reason is no less valid today than in 1791. Maybe more so, but and I'll leave it at that. PPS TO the OTHER JOHN: Sorry I still concur and I still think this thread SHOULD BE closed, I will put down the keyboard and step away from the computer now.
Last edited by Larry Kehl; 10/04/17 11:17 AM.
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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No good will ever come of this thread. I've deliberately stayed out of it because the most contentious discussions we've ever had on here were about guns.
I was always right in the thick of it before and looking at who is participating now, it's the same players making exactly the same arguments. If I were to join the fray, I'd have the same position I had before too.
No one is changing anyone else's mind. Since we know the outcome of the previous gun debates on here, why don't we take a lesson from an old quote:
"If we always do what we always did then we'll always get what we've always gotten."
Hard feelings and strained relationships are the only thing we'll reap by continuing a gun debate on a music forum.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 10/04/17 11:49 AM.
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Sorry I started this and hope everyone has had enough of it.
If we put our strongly held points of view in our songs perhaps we may even help a tiny bit.
Cheers. (over and out)
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JJJ
Have you actually READ ALL of those papers and studies? Read and memorized them!  Doesn't matter. Plenty of examples in the world that do not involve opinion where countries have outright banned certain types of guns and had an immediate and lasting reduction in gun violence. Would some folks still kill with handguns and hunting rifles? Of course. But they wouldn't kill 58 and injure over 500! Would suicides continue? Of course. But there is no doubt having a quick and easy lethal means makes it far more likely someone will go through with it. You see, most of us on the side of advocating sensible gun laws don't expect to eliminate all violence or deaths. But if we save one class full of children or even a handful of people or even one person by not allowing the general public to possess military style weapons then that is worth it! The "rights" of people to play with deadly toys should not supersede the rights of their fellow citizens to live!
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This is from Caleb Keeter, a member of the 'Josh Abbott Band' (from Texas)... one of the acts at the Las Vegas festival.
From a message he posted on Twitter...
“My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it [the need for gun control] until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.”
“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life,” Keeter explained. “Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with CHL [concealed handgun licenses], and legal firearms on the bus.
“They were useless,” he continued. “We couldn’t touch them for fear the police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us. … Enough is enough. Writing my parents and the love of my life a goodbye last night and a living will because I felt like I wasn’t going to live through the night was enough for me to realize that this is completely and totally out of hand.”
Here is a link to the article from which the above was obtained. https://www.spin.com/2017/10/las-vegas-shooting-josh-abbott-band-caleb-keeter-we-need-gun-control-right-now/I hope PG Music lock this thread so that it can pass into posterity. That will keep everyone's views intact and will, most likely, save on-line friendships. (My 2¢'s worth.)
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
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