PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic I need to use "live" sequences for WORSHIP at my church !!

Hi folks

I need some advice, recommendations/ suggestions here. I direct the worship band at my church. I play a Roland Clavinova and do backup Tenor vocals and as far as musicians are concerned, I play along with a bass player, drummer, and an acoustic guitarist. Additionally, There are 5 singers upfron, making it a 9 member worship team. Most times, I use a basic acoustic piano and strings tone or maybe a Rhodes and pads combination. My drummer is okay but not too hot, time-wise. I would rate him as a very basic drummer. I want to do 2 things. I am thinking of using "live" sequences so as to make the music sound richer, fuller with additional horns, strings bells and whistles to play along with us in real time and be able to change patterns in each song on the fly as in INTRO, 1ST VERSE, CHORUS, 2nd verse, chorus, bridge, outro etc etc.

Then too, I want to be able to send the drummer some kind of sync....most probably a light percussion feed, either via head phones or into his drum monitor so that we all stay in sync and tughtly in thaaa pocket. Now, I have some stuff at my home studio such as

(1) a MAC BOOK (just got it yesterday from sweetwater.com) brand new. 2-13 Ghz dual core, 160 hard drive, 2 gigs of ram
(2) a lexicon omega USB interface,
(3) an HP laptop (from Walmart) 17 inch > dual core celeron 2.3 Ghz, 4 giggs of ram, 250 gigs of hard drive space
(4) Have access to an Mpc 1000. Dude next door owns (doesn't know how to use it) it but wants me to use it freely.

Software wise: band in a box 2008.5, (with Real tracks), power tracks pro audio 12, Sonar 4 studio edition, cubase sx3.

I do demos sequencing and small projects and stuff at home for clients.

Any suggestions in using what I have above for the "live" sequences being used on the fly as I need to?

thanks

jah..
why not do the following for simplicity//control.
do the song in biab , then after getting it right create a mp3.
put a clik at front of mp3 that only the drummer hears via his feed..
??
or if the other musicians have mic/earphone combos they will
hear it also as a monitor mix cue.
the advantage of this route is not just simplicity ..
but my concern is if the mac is playing back biab traks "live"
that any computer glitch might lead to problems/red faces all around/.
if were me i would give the 9 members each one of those mics with earpieces attached
possibly . sending em the mp3 mix. ??
do you havce some kind of PA set up at the church ??
if you have such plus a mixer one input to the mixer could be the mp3 mix
and other inputs the 9 members mics. then mix the shebang to stereo
feed for the monitors the assembly hears.
carefull use of the fader in the mixer will ensure the assembly dont hear the cue clik
at front of each song.

Having been in this situation myself, let me offer a 2nd alternative to manning1's suggestion:

Your description of the situation actually leads to an even more simple solution. From your description, your main issue is the drummer's inability to keep time.

The 'fuller/richer' may or may not be accomplished with embellished background tracks. Why not just use pre-recorded tracks altogether if this is the goal? Tons of this stuff is out there in the market.

The drummer gets a click-track in headphones for each song - pre-recorded, or a percussion track as manning1 suggests. We have done this many times.

However, what we have not done is play over a full or partial bed of orchestration. Unless it's just you playing along with the orchestration, I'll suggest that you are asking for more trouble than it is worth.

The drummer and the ability of the leader to keep the drummer in lock-step with the worship leader or band director is the only solution here. Consider even using the ever popular 'butt-kicker' to put the click track into the business end of the drummer. http://www.thebuttkicker.com/ButtKicker%20Brand%20Technology/index.htm

Get that nailed down first. Pre-record the click/percussion tracks as manning1 suggests. If you can get that far where you can get the drummer to keep time well, then possibly consider playing along to a pre-recorded track, but again, not a midi playback. If you can get that nailed then you might want to go to a BIAB route where you can add in sections, extra choruses, etc.

I'm guessing the main problem is really the drummer. You already have plenty of instrumentation and voices for a 'full' sound - remember the goal is to get the congregation to make it sound rich. They, after all are the performers, not the band. The band/leader are the prompters. God is the audience.

Perhaps it's time for me to climb on my worship leading soapbox just for a moment:

Wrong definition of corporate worship: God is prompter, Band is performer, congregation is audience.
Right definition of corporate worship: Band is prompter, congregation is performer, God is audience.

This definition doesn't necessarily apply to what we once called 'Special music', where there's a soloist or instrumentalist 'performing' - though the above definition should always be kept in mind so that these 'specials' don't merely become a talent show that runs over weeks.

-Scott

Nice analysis, Scott. I'll be filing that one away for a bit of reflection, maybe share with my music/worship leaders at fellowship.

J.

Thanks for the reply, however, what if, I need to call up the verse, chorus, 2nd verse, bridge, 1st verse, chorus again? What about being able to call up different sections or patterns of the songs as the SPIRIT LEADS?

You mentioned prerecorded Mp3 files which is not a bad idea but my worship leader goes spontaneous at times. Some one was recommending ABLETON "LIVE" to me but again I will have to investigate. You also mention glitches on the Mac...............DO MAC'S GLITCH? I thought they were supposed to be relatively and exceedingly stable based on what I have read in forums and blogs.

Hit me back again. Thanks

Hey Scot,

Thanks for the reply, however, what if, I need to call up the verse, chorus, 2nd verse, bridge, 1st verse, chorus again? What about being able to call up different sections or patterns of the songs as the SPIRIT LEADS?

You mentioned prerecorded Mp3 files which is not a bad idea but my worship leader goes spontaneous at times. Some one was recommending ABLETON "LIVE" to me but again I will have to investigate. Yes, I understand about pre recorded tracks but what if my worship leader wants to repeat a certain section? That's my point here. I am thinking of being able to change patterns on the fly as needed.

Reply again

In a band or orchestra they take away your instrument and give you drumsticks when you can't play. Then if you're bad at that they take one away and you stand in front. LOL old one.

The use of the conductor, both in front of the group, and using the conductor feature in band in a box should solve the problem, as long as the drummer can see the director making time. In marching bands we made the drummer start out by hitting the drum every time the left foot hit the ground. As long as he's in step. Problem with click tracks and drummers is they like to wail on the things and you wonder if they can hear the band. Learning drum technique with brushes and hitting the bass drum pedal on the downbeat during practice, using a conductor might get the guy in sync. Another problem I've seen at the church where my brass band plays, is the drummer leaves his only kit at the church and never practices. That can't be good.....

jah.
i really think before "going live" as it were you need to do some test runs
with the group there and running biab on the mac live.
and see in a real situation via test runs any probs that might occur.
i dont care whether pc or mac or auntie flo's computing company..lol.
any computer can glitch live. a hard dtive can go south,
the power feeding the puter can go south etc etc.
so my advice is plan for the worst.
and have a plan to over come probs.
in a highly computerised situation anything can go wrong.
some touring acts go as far as useing redundant puter set ups so if one goes
winky another carries on in real time.
we are talking here a real time situation...and lots of things can go wrong in
real time situations.
computer architecture whether mac or pc has not yet reached
the level of sophistication of built in redundancy.
the motherboard goes south and your up the kyber pass..lol.
i know what you want jah...to be able to change your mind
"on the fly" during a song...just be aware , and i dont care the application..
ableton, or uncle freds handy dandy live performance music software..
it will fall down if the underlying puter goes south.
if your really serious bout this approach then..i would look at everything that could possibly cause failure...eg make sure the power is really good feeding the mac,
and make sure the mac itself is fully tested under stress , and dont forget the hard drivs used in the mac. i would make sure the drives are very good quality with a good mtbf rate etc etc.
prolly a premium drive should be used. but even they can go south.
sorry to be the devils advocate here (no pun intended...i'm very religious myself.)
but just suggesting you plan for the worst.
so the congregation dont have a good laugh if suddenly the set up falls down.
which has happened in live situations.

mebe do a survey also of what other worship groups have found
in the way of solutions to what your trying to do.
ive seen some pretty fancy worship set ups in the past myself.
but as always fancy set ups cost big money.
which is why i suggested a least cost mp3 route.
god bless. (sincerely mate.)

Gotcha Manning,

Thanks Bro.............and to your advice I say a GREAT BIG HALLELUJAH...because you said some really eye opening things here. The others in this forum have also given me good advice. So basically, and like you said, Anything can go wrong...and that's true. I need to get some kind of 'whatever it is" surge suppressor or what have you to stabilize the power coming into the Mac.......oh well coming to think of it, I will leave my nice new dandy white colored Mac-book at home in my home studio and use this brand new HP baby I will buy at Walmart .....ummmmmmmm for tomorrow's BLACK FRIDAY SALE...........I mean $298.00 for a nice HP Laptop with reasonable specs aint that bad. Take a look at it here: http://bfads.net/HP-Laptop-Celeron-3GB-Memory-250GB-HDD-G60519wm-at-Walmart.

So anyways, having said that, I will indeed experiment a bit, try out stuff at my worship rehearsals, maybe get to the church early, do stuff, check things, trouble shoot, try, experiment and what have you. As the Department of Motor Vehicles always advise.......DRIVE DEFENSIVELY........EXPECT THE WORSE...BE ON THE LOOK OUT FOR CRAZY FOLK ON THE ROAD. The same maxim can be applied to this scenario that I wanna accomplish in playing with my worship team with "live" sequences and to be able to call up patterns on the fly.

So my other question. As I said earlier on, I play a Roland Clavinova. In terms of my set up, do I run band in a box from my laptop which is connected via usb to my lexicon omega interface with stereo out from the interface into the sound system and stage monitors? Or do I go usb from the laptop and midi connected to the CLAVINOVA? Clavinova has only Midi in and midi out..no USB......THEN stereo audio out of the Clavinova? I guess, what I want to do is to be able to play the Clavinova like I have been doing but be able to send band in a box out of the PC. Hope I am not sounding silly but again, I am basically a gigging musician who is now getting into the software vibe.

Reply soon y'all. Just need advice on how y'all would set up this "live" vibe.

By The way, the link for the HP laptop going for just $298.00 at Walmart for tomorrow's BLACK FRIDAY SALE is here

http://bfads.net/HP-Laptop-Celeron-3GB-Memory-250GB-HDD-G60519wm-at-Walmart

Any comments on this lappie? re music production etc?

My laptops, Macbook and PC, don't need much in the way of surge suppression.

Matter of fact, the built in battery acts like a UPS for them.

All I've ever used in years of live performance with laptops is a common Surge Suppressor AC plug strip.


--Mac

Jah,
I'll tackle this from another direction, also.

You asked about 'as the Spirit leads', so let's take a look at that.

Father knows the limitation of your drummer, and those you are working with. Psalms enjoins us to 'make a joyful noise unto the Lord', not create a lush, orchestrated, finely tuned music show. However, He also never said that you can't do that. The intent and purpose of music within a fellowship is to bring everyone to the same place mentally and emotionally so that what will be taught that day has a receptive bed. From a simple, single soloist singing accapella to a full orchestration doesn't really matter to God, it is the heart of the player/performer that God looks at.

My feeling is that your musical worship group should work together to bring up your drummer, and others who may not be the best at what they are doing, but have the heart of service. Work within their abilities and understanding, bringing them up, teaching and enforcing, and reinforcing lessons to make them better. You aren't there to wow God, you are there for His children. A simple blessing with simple music can do more than trying to do changes on the fly and having people unable to follow them, and then flubbing up. People remember that, and it takes their mind off what will be presented, or even the message in the music.

So, whatever you are doing, keep it within the limitations of all of your members.

Gary

Jah, can you get the drummer to play to a click track? Until you answer 'yes' to this question, you can't expect him/her to play to a song. They aren't drumming.

Nothing against playing skillfully but: I have at times received more from folks who were playing 3 chords and approaching the key of H in their singing, than some other highly polished productions that left me cold, stone cold. As Jah said, "As the Spirit moves."

Don S.

Jah, you have way too many people involved to be messing around with trying to use the Biab Conductor feature in a live situation especially with singers. The problem is you have to know in advance that somebody wants to do an extra chorus, jump back to the verse, whatever. As soon as somebody just goes there and then thinks you can somehow catch up like a live band can is where the train wreak happens.
The Conductor is based on various scenarios that you can set up in advance, like hitting a number on your laptop keyboard say, 5 for example, and that number means jump to the chorus at the next part marker, a 6 might mean return to the top at "A". Note this action must be taken in advance of when you want it to happen. Somebody just waves his hand and starts singing the chorus without warning you first, and by that I mean enough warning so you can gather your thoughts and remember what key you have to hit to make it happen, then execute it, you're dead. A two second warning won't cut it. The music is still playing the verse and you've already gone past your set up point so you're forced to wait for the whole thing to come around again before you can hit that 5 to take you to the chorus. I don't know if you can understand what I'm trying to say here but trust me, it can get ugly real fast.
The only way this can work is with lots of rehearsals with everybody involved and you try out different scenarios using your laptop and software so they all can hear how it works. Without that, it will never work.
This is especially a problem with someone who's standing out front with a mic and you're supposed to follow him. He may be talking while the band is vamping and then he starts the verse or whatever it is. All he has to do is get caught up in the moment, forget what you talked about at rehearsal and just launch into the tune and that's it. Literally all you can is hit stop, try to make a joke and start over. There is no way to somehow make the computer catch up to what the singer is doing. He has to stop and listen to where the music is and try to fit in and that almost never works either so the whole thing just goes round and round the toilet bowl.
If this explanation sounds like I've been there and done that, yes I've not only expeirienced it, I've lived it man! A lot of fun too, I'll tell ya.


Bob

G'day Jah,
I wasn't going to say anything here. You've received lots of good, practical advice, but what Gary, Mac and Don wrote struck a chord (pun intended).

I've been involved in the music team at my church for about 16 or 17 years now as a musician and before that on the mixer. If I've learned anythng in that time then what Gary and Mac said about skill is correct - both of them. What Don added is the most correct.

I applaud your desire to improve the sound of your teams efforts, but it occurs to me that there is a human element too. Take your drummer. I assume (s)he's doing the best they can at their current skill level - you don't want to belittle that. IMHO it would be better to follow Gary's advice and work with them to raise their skill level than try to cover up with a machine.

At the moment, we don't even have a drummer. We have keys, 1 to 3 guitars, bass, 'bone/trumpet/flugel/eupho (me) and flute. Plus 1 to 3 vocalists (in addition to 1 (or 2) guitarist(s) and keys player who also sing). We are blessed with a good team, but it wasn't always this way - it took years of work and we have had team members come and go as well. Praise God we don't have problems with personality clashes, ego's and the like.

When the children of Israel went into battle, the musicians LED them - we're the front rank - but we don't carry the battle. That's everyone's job. Your team needs to be able to lead the congregation, not dominate or replace them - nor entertain them (though that will tend to happen as a matter of course).

As has been mentioned, God looks on the heart. The joyful noise is better if it's also a skillful noise, but joyful is more important. That said, skillfil is necessary 'cos while the congregation probably won't appreciate the skill required to get it right, they'll always spot mistakes and we don't want to distract them.

By spending the time in practice - one on one if necessary - your team will benefit from the fellowship time. One of the things we do at the start of each rehearsal is devotions - sometimes the rehearsal gets cut a bit short - that's OK. The sharing is more important.

Blessya

If I may, Jah...

I've played in worship bands for 25 years. Sometimes gtr, typically bass. 20 years charismatic, "spirit led" worship, 5 years otherwise, since finding the Lord for myself at 24, but raised in a conservative Christian Brethren church. Seen a great variety of skill levels in church musicians and worship leaders. On very rare occaisions, I've experienced worship so other worldly, I swear I've heard instruments playing that I know weren't there, and absolutely and-for-a-fact witnessed singers singing songs they never learned, accompanied by musos who never learned the accompaniment. These are however the exceptional peaks. Most church worship that I've been a playing part of has been generally more earth bound, more planned, more predictable. In fact, what I observe is that beyond a certain point, the more planning/technicalityscheduling/timeline we as worship team members bring to the occaision, the less likely it is that the Holy Spirit shows up and takes over from us.

A lovely old guy I knew from a few churches back called Harry Rudge (grandson of the founder of Rudge motorcycles!) said something to me when I was a young man that has stayed with me for years. He said to me that the Holy Spirit was like a kindly, exceedingly polite gentleman. Won't protest if he is pushed off to one side and out of the way, and will only move to the center of the stage and take control if you earnestly seek him, and insist he do so. That was the best part of 30 years ago and I still find a lot in that. My current church, a fairly mainstream, but covertly charismatic, large suburban Baptist fellowship, illustrates this. I have never been in a church or worship dept so organised, itemised, finely scheduled, with the services planned and usually executed literally to the minite. The next step up in internal organisation could only be a shuttle launch at NASA, basically. The worship and creative arts leader actually has a Grammy nomination for his production skills! Yet, although the meetings generally go smoothly, I am sad to say that I have only once in 3 years there caught a sniff of real Holy Spirit leadership in a meeting.

Jah, I'm familair, I think, with the Spirit led "fluid" dynamic of a charismatic/Pentecostal worship occaision, and it sounds like this is the flavour of worship environment you are dealing with here. Jazzmammal, Lawrie, Curmudgeon and Gary all make great points here in this thread. I guess I align with them on usage of computer based sequences having real train wreck potential in services, and I also have issues with incorporating players or singers in church worship on the basis of inclusion, or perhaps enthusiasm, rather than competence (as it sounds like your drummer has been recruited). It sounds a little like you want the computer soloution to compensate for the human frailty factor, actually.

But what I primarily want to say is beware of striving to simulate the moving of the Spirit. May I revisit this comment of Scott's, above:

Perhaps it's time for me to climb on my worship leading soapbox just for a moment:

Wrong definition of corporate worship: God is prompter, Band is performer, congregation is audience.
Right definition of corporate worship: Band is prompter, congregation is performer, God is audience.


And I actually think this is quite insightful , and I forwarded this on to the worship leader of my churches Sunday am services tomorrow (at which I'll be playing some acc. gtr).

Now, Jah, Is it possible that your going the sequencing route is at least partly attributable to the desire to deliver a smooth, polished performance to the congregation (+/- yourselves in the worship team ?) that in some way parrallels what we feel the Holy Spirit commonly does, or worse, should be doing, in your meetings?

Not that there's anything wrong with anticipating problems and preventing them before perfomance, but are we in any sense here striving to make up for an absence of true Holy Spirit leading by inserting our own impression of His presence and leading? Because just 5 minites of H.S. led silence in a meeting, if that is His will, is going to do more in our hearts than any number of musical items, computer sequenced passages of music, jazzy slide images on the overhead screens, drama skits etc. etc etc. if all these are, fundamentally, our own ideas rather than His.

But simply and quietly waiting on God in meetings, which is a prime way of showing the Holy Spirit we are seeking His leading, and we are willing to subordinate our will, our schedule, our timeline, to His, is one thing we are less and less willing to do in today's time conscious, busy and highly distractable church, I find.
And yes, of course sometimes those activities I mention above are His central intention, or at least within His allowable will for a given meeting. I would contend, however, that earnestly seeking Him within the context of meetings is not sometimes within His will, but always.

So Jah, I'm suggesting in conclusion: pray this propostition through, and I encourage you to hang out to hear something from God before going ahead with it. If the Lord is in it, then the risks various posters have spelt out will just have to be dealt with as they arise. But if it's His idea to do this, then give it a shot. However, if it's actually your idea, then although that doesn't mean that ipso facto it will fail (because God is gracious, loves us, and may well help out anyhow), be prepared for some issues that may mean it has to be discarded and put down to experience.

My take home message would thus be: Pray it through, asking the Lord for some direction. In the absence of hearing something from the Lord that affirms going the sequencing route, I'd personally be reluctant about it, for the reasons indicated above.

Best wishes in any case. I'll be praying for you in this today.

John