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Quote:
<...>The sound is subjective. You have no idea what synth I'm using when you make that statement.
My apologies
Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs. <...>
If a human entered the bass line in real time, it should sound human up to the limitations of BiaB.
The problem is, too many styles were step-entered which makes them sound non-human.
And I know that not everyone wants to put the work in to make the MIDI tracks sound better. But I strongly feel that by putting in the work by editing the MIDI files in a sequencer, you can end up with a much better sounding backing track than you can with the RTs (for the reasons I stated earlier).
IMHO getting song specific licks, shots, holds, gradual tempo variations, kicks, gradual and/or instant volume variations, and all the other things you can do in MIDI that you cannot do with the RTs have more effect on the audience than a pure bass (or any other) tone. For me the RTs sound too generic and don't fit the personality of each individual song. The MIDI tracks are the same way (it's the nature of auto-accompaniment), but I can fix the MIDI files in a sequencer so they fit the song's personality, where I cannot with RTs.
Of course, many people don't want to put in the time and work. There is something to be said for instant gratification.
On the other hand, I do this for a living. Even if I spend an entire day making the backing track as good as I can make it, it's worth it. I will play that track thousands of times and the better I can make it feel, the more I will please the audience. The more I please the audience, the more fun they will have. The more fun they have means I get more opportunities to perform. The more opportunities I get to perform, the more fun I have and the more my mortgage company likes me.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Once you are lucky enough to have no mortgage company, it changes your perspective. I don't have to do anything really, except hire guys to clean the leaves out of my gutters, and make sure the wife had gas for the lawnmower and a nice shovel for the snow.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Many thanks for this discussion. It's very interesting and educational for me. As noted by Mac, it seems the tendency is to make it an "either or" situation re: midi v. real tracks. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but they both have their very useful applications, IMHO. I guess we could go on and on, but for me, the bottom line is just use what you have to to get the sound you want. FWIW.
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs.
Rachael
Hi Rachael,
Well, that depends.
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
Of course, one should pick the MIDI instrumentation carefully, not all Patches sound good. If it doesn't sound that good when done this way, then I don't do that, I do something else.
However, when recording ALL the instruments on all the tracks in RealTime with MIDI instruments and qualified musicians, one can indeed make a lot happen.
MIDI Piano, MIDI Bass, MIDI drums, all played in realtime by MIDI musicians, Bass is also on the keyboard, recorded live too, drums recorded by a live drummer using a MIDI kit:
SleighRide.mp3
That was done maybe ten years ago or so, using whatever version of Powertracks that was out at the time.
Here's another, this one combines MIDI plus a few real instruments, an old standard arrangement re-multitracked by yours truly:
Goin_ta_Town.wma
Drums for this one were played on a KEYBOARD, one part at a time, but again, no step-entry, realtime recording.
There is a clue that the sax is MIDI towards the end of that last one, it goes up and out of a real range. Never corrected it. Should have.
You can also hear me Spankin' the Plank a bit on the old Stratocaster with a pair of EMG active humbuckers in it in this one, too...
--Mac
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Quote:
Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs.
Rachael
Hi Rachael,
Well, that depends.
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
Of course, one should pick the MIDI instrumentation carefully, not all Patches sound good. If it doesn't sound that good when done this way, then I don't do that, I do something else.
Mac,
I appreciate the feedback but you're over my head now. Is this something I can easily do in BIAB using the existing BIAB styles?
Rachael
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"Easy" is a relative term and it always depends on how much you know and how much you've practiced what you know, Rachael.
Just like with that Piano.
Treat BIAB like a separate musical instrument of its own right, that's my approach. Of course, don't expect to be able to do pro level stuff with BB, RB or PT using single button push methods. Ain't gonna happen.
I'll bet you play some tunes that are "easy" for you. But at one time, they were not so easy, maybe even difficult, right?
--Mac
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besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
Almost everything I know and do about MIDI came from doing things like downloading (and sometimes *buying* from reputable sources) great sounding MIDI files and then opening them up in a sequencing software like Powertracks/Realband that is able to reveal all the little things, the CC's etc. that a Consummate MIDIOT puts in those files. The Event List as well as the MIDI Monitor is my best friend at that point.
As for learning the nomenclature, well, the world wide web is your best friend for that, websearching can bring up plenty of basic info, the MIDI Manufacturer's Association list of all commands for the MIDI standard, plus there is a website out there covering just about every single aspect of the MIDI definition, right down to the nitty-gritty.
It also depends upon what you want to do and what you have already done, too. For example, I was already fairly adept at writing arrangements for orchestra, bigband, ensemble and the like with a pencil before I even knew that MIDI existed. The ability to hear the arrangement in your head as you write it is an important part of the way I work. For doing transcriptions of existing recordings to MIDI, I put the audio file of the target recording on the first track of the sequencer and LISTEN. I find the Bass track by using the marvelous filters that live between our ears. Concentrate on hearing it. Then I concentrate on learning it. Then I concentrate on playing that on my keyboard and do practice runs playing along with the real bass player on the target recording. Finally, I TAP the tempo into the MIDI sequencer, arm a track and start trying to record the Bass line while playing along with that real recording. Fix mistakes, retake, whatever, then check your Bass track as it plays along with the real thing, if good, on to doing the exact same thing with the "next instrument up". Yes, I have found that it pays to work from the bottom up when transcribing anything at all. If you can't identify the Bass first, then you can't identify the chord properly, or any other note above the bass. "Bottom Up".
It should go without saying that before I ever did my first MIDI sequence, I had spent years developing my ears and my playing abilities. I can generally "catch" most songs as they play the first time through and start playing along with them at this point. Play the "radio game" as part of your practice regimen. Start at the left end of the dial and the first music you hear, try to play along with it. LISTEN TO THE BASS FIRST, that's the key. If you can grab the root, you are 90% there. Beginners may have to start by simply working on grabbing the Tonic. Twenty minutes a day is all it takes, but you gotta do it every day or at least every other day for about a year with serious intent to get result. Grab that first tune, then turn the dial to the right. Next station, no matter the genre, wait for the next music you hear -- and try to grab it. Repeat all the way up the dial. This includes Ads and Jingles so don't avoid the Talk Show stations at all. Use the BIAb Interval Trainer daily. Ten Minutes a Day and you will soon develop the kind of Relative Pitch needed. And Relative Pitch is indeed all that is needed. Never mind the key, what's the numbers? Country Music and Religious Music stations are great for practicing simply listening and trying to recite the numbers as the chords change, because they typically use "standard" and easy changes. Again, listen for the BASS to get the root of each chord. Great drill when highway driving alone. As the song plays, say the numbers. "One, Six-minor, Four, Five..."
PRACTICE making MIDI files and don't let anybody but yourself hear them. Keep practicing. Rinse, Repeat. YOU should know when your files are ready to be presented to others. Instant Gratification should not be the goal here at all. If it is worth doing, then the job is worth doing WELL.
Bear in mind that one can put quite a few man-hours into what eventually is only a few minutes of music as it plays back. That is just the way it is. As with anything else, you get faster at it with practice, you learn some shortcut tricks, but you should still find that it takes time to develop a stellar MIDI sequence.
Here is the biggest SECRET about building MIDI sequences I can give you:
In the MIDI domain, there are certain things that MIDI can do well. Use them and even emphasize them. For there are also certain things that MIDI can NOT do well. When you come to that situation, you have to know when to not do that. At all. Only a fool keeps complaining that the sun is too bright every summer day. The wise man gets a pair of sunglasses. So it is.
--Mac
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Quote:
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
I guess you are saying the above is not possible in BIAB?
R
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Thanks, Mac. You're comments are very welcome to me. They really put things in a perspective that I can relate to even if I don't understand all of the little nuances. You also point out some things that we all already know, but somehow manage to put on the back shelf---practice and patience. As you point out, there are very few shortcuts. I've asked a lot of questions on here, but there are many more questions that I didn't ask. I just have to learn this stuff by doing it. As an old geezer, I find that I have to do it fairly often or I won't remember too many specifics. It's obvious listening to what you've done, that you took the time and did the "fine tuning" to make those quality recordings. I totally agree that listening is crucial to learning music, too. This is something that I should do more of. Thanks for all those reminders.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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thanks mac as usual you're right on
even though i suffer from IGS, instant gratification syndrome, i read you and having spent 25+ years in the network admin and programming business i recognize the parallels
in programming for example if you want to write code that gets the job done you must learn the language and what it has to offer in the way of functions & features in addition to the ability to express the task using a tool like a flow chart, somebody else's well written code has always been a helpful learning tool for me
suggestions of well crafted midi files, and the techniques they demonstrate, are welcome
programming skills didn't come overnight this won't either
in retirement as i am trying to transfer what's in my head to the the daw i am finding out how limited my musical & midi compositional knowledge is
a bit frustrating but i've been here before
thanks again
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Quote:
Quote:
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
I guess you are saying the above is not possible in BIAB?
R
Exactly. Band in a Box is locked at 120ppq. In most cases, that is likely enough, though, as witnessed by some of the stuff that was obviously MIDI recorded by the likes of Oliver Gannon or Miles Black, et al. But I do wonder if they recorded the MIDI track inside BIAB or if they used Powertracks set to higher resolution and then converted and imported to BIAB sometimes. I don't know either way, just something I've occasionally wondered. As it stands, I don't have problems all that much recording MIDI myself inside BIAB with the 120ppq resolution. My meager attempts to play come out okay enough for me. So I wouldn't let that become some sort of impediment to not trying if you catch my drift. What I'm talking about here is an improvement, but be aware that it may be subtle and slight, heard only be those with the trained and golden ears. It will not stop a realistic sounding performance at all. Think about it for a minute -- can you actually subdivide a quarter note beat into 120 parts in your head?
--Mac
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
You can start here: http://leftandwrite.com/brian/music/beginners_guide_to_midi.php
Also there are some good beginner midi books available, just google “midi for dummies” to see a few.
Mac’s advice is spot on. To add one more thing I suggest looking at the midi specification sheet, sometimes called a Midi implementation Chart, that comes with every hard or soft synth. It will tell you what Midi CC numbers are activated and what they control for that unit. Then just play around with them and see what happens. Note that some CC numbers are universal like CC7 (volume) and CC10 (pan) for example. There is a ton of information on the internet so goggle a lot!
Have fun
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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There is another consideration in using Midi and inputting your performance live. In the beginning I began to use a Roland guitar controller and inserted my fingerpicking while playing my acoustic, then assigned a midi guitar voice - XG sounds offered more flexibility and have four CCs that will change the nature of the sound in brightness, harmonics, attack and I don't recall the fourth. But if you are going to input live I think you should at least set ppq at 480 and make sure that in the notation options you DO NOT HAVE "snap to grid" checked unless your ppq is 480 minimum, 960 maybe better, otherwise when you open the Notation window, all your grace notes, slides etc will have shifted in time either forward or backward depending on which grid line they are closer to. And do not quantize your performance or you will lose the human feel. This at least applies to PT - never tried in BIAB - PT was easier.  Just a thought or two. Ian
Last edited by Ian Fraser; 12/01/09 12:23 PM.
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
I just created and uploaded a list of all the MIDI continuous controllers. This page doesn't tell you how to use them, and each sequencer has different names and different menu locations for changing them (most have more than one way to do it), but once you learn how to do one, the list will come in handy.
To view the list go to: http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My favorite controller number is because of the MIDI Manufacturer's Association's common sense in selecting which one to use for All Notes Off. This is the same command that the Panic Button (!) sends from most software sequencers.
But when live onstage, you may find a day when a stuck note or worse yet, a confused and wandering synth needs to be topped quickly.
Panic Button is CC123
Just remember that it is as easy as 1,2,3 and you'll stop the darn thing before the bandmembers can get together and discuss firing that darn MIDIOT guy.
--Mac
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What a great idea, Notes!
Bookmarked!
Ian
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What a great idea, Notes! Thanks.
Bookmarked!
Ian
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It is the nature of creativity to embrace variability. Once you settle on a single solution, you are limited to whatever set of options it offers. For that reason, I don't really want PGmusic to be my "one-size-fits-all" musical solution.
I like having options.
I like having the option to play many of the parts myself.
I like the tweakability options that are offered by the MIDI styles in BIAB.
I like the different set of options made available in RealBand.
I like the fact that they can work together or separately or even be exported for use in other music software. As far as I'm concerned, PGMusic has created a system that is already useful in so many ways, I don't have time to explore and understand them all before the next version arrives.
I see no need to think in terms of "THIS, not THAT" ... rather I think "this AND that!"
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You should not only Bookmark that page,
You should highlight, copy and paste to a Wordpad or Notepad file
And place it on your desktop of the DAW for fast and ready reference.
--Mac
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Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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