Oliver Gannon, and congratulations, for your appointment to the Order of Canada. I didn't realize a distinguished guitarist was working on this program.
I'm a guitarist, as well.
I'm still on BIAB 2014 { I own 2017, but reverted back}
My problem with Biab in general is it's "not very guitar friendly." { at least up to 2017}
I'm not talking about additions like real tracks, video , etc - which look helpful in their own right. }
After playing rock, blues , pop guitar, even fusion, for years, { occasionally with some name cats} I determined- Biab doesn't play like a guitarist plays.
As I'm sure you know- a guitarist adds all kind of partial chord structures { like on the 4th , 5th }, etc. A guitarist adds , I guess you call it pre -beats, off beats, etc. ] These are basically mandatory to a lot of styles.
{ adding styles from the program list, I find is zero help for this as well }
These guitar friendly options are not currently in the program , [ to my knowledge.]
Will this ever be IN the program?
thanks,
Congratulations Oliver Gannon again, and thanks.
[Oliver Gannon for his appointment to the Order of Canada]
While I am in total agreement with you on the Kudos to OG, in all due respect, I have no idea what you mean by:
Quote:
Biab in general is it's not very guitar friendly.
Are you playing the guitar with BIAB accompaniment -if so how does BIAB restrict you from playing as a "guitarist"?
... or if you are using BIAB as the guitarist - do you really feel that OG or Brent Mason Real Tracks don't have the articulations, chord voicings and timing of a real guitarist?
Are you playing the guitar with BIAB accompaniment ........................
Hi Musicstudent,
is that just a handle or your actual level?
I want BIAB to create backing tracks, as it's advertised for.
For Rock , pop, funk, etc - the styles I play - and want - it would have to EMULATE those styles. { And allow me to program nuances to those styles}
That is CANNOT DO!
I'm not talking about instruction video tracks by artists, adding solo tracks, etc.
I'm talking about NEEDING THE GUITARS TO SOUND CORRECT, and being able to program them correctly:
{ Or allow me "the space" to do it myself"]
ALL OF THIS = it CANNOT DO! +
I had this discussion on here before, and others agreed with me.
{ + Im talking up to 2017, which I own. My feeling from using the program extensively is that it was NOT created with guitarists in mind. AT ALL . correction, I see Jazz forums where the guitarists praise it. But jazz is the one style I don't record }
Dan, I think his issue is that when you enter a chord, everything that happens during performance does, by design and default, play "in the box." Can't add a pick-up unless it is a two-bar phrase (and then in the wrong bar...) because the program has to wait till it gets there.
And I will agree in a general way, but the workarounds let me write moire simplified forms of what I really want, and I can usually edit in my DAW to fix that. My problem (elsewhere) is with the shots and holds, but it is part of the same issue - the built-in limits of the concept. Music is simply more flexible than that.
Bottom line: I used to use iReal Pro for live performance backing tracks - still do for requests. While I will not get to be the next Joe Zawinul with BiaB, I will be WAY closer.
And certain styles, like OG's "Freddies," are the answer to a thirty-year quest for a non-drinking rhythm guitarist (OK, he needs his juice, but...)
Oliver is such a talented guitarist, and his appointment is a surprise (given the below-the-radar nature of jazz guitarists), but much appreciated. Well done, Canada, and well deserved, Oliver!
Totally agree with Soundsmith. BiaB is amazing, but in a limited way. Arrangements are limited because the musical variations are infinite and the software is, by necessity, finite. Although I DO wish they'd get shots and holds a BIT more realistic.
Many years ago Oliver did a very nice PGMUSIC application called Jazz Guitarist that featured chord melody arrangements of Jazz Standards (Foggy Day, etc). Sadly, it is no longer in the catalog.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
'featured chord melody arrangements of Jazz Standards '
? that sounds interesting.
My beef with BIAB { not to belabor, the point - but for those who don't get me "]
This program was created what - 30 years ago? At that time you couldn't walk down a street in the USA without running into a Rock guitarist. { Probably Canada, too. " Today's Tom Sawyer gets ... "]
How many of them bought BIAB and gave feedback here?
I recently tried to do a cover of SUNSHINE OF YOUR LOVE. One of the all time classic lead guitarist songs.
Failed. BIAB can't do notes. { or can it? } It cant do the famous Sunshine Riff. And if you try to emulate the chords { following the riff } - it fell short, there , too.
90% of rock is based on riffs. A lot of funk too. {" Very superstitious" anyone? }
Do you need midi to add notes?
Hoping for some guitar friendly love to this program.
I'm a guitarist -- been one for longer than most people have been alive. One thing I've noticed is that music software in general is not very guitarist friendly. BiaB is no worse than most, and better than many, I find.
I've used BiaB for years, and am currently running 2017, but I consider myself to be still pretty much a noob with many of BiaB's finer points. I traditionally used BiaB mostly as a convenient backing tracks program. Mostly for the old jazz standards, which it usually does a pretty good job with. Much less when you start getting into more contemporary or "rock" tunes.
One of my biggest beefs with music software in general is the guitar sounds that I have to work with. Seldom do they sound like actual guitars, and when they do, there are usually problems with the sound in one way or another that make it not so pleasant to use them. One thing I really would like PGM to do is, rather than just using Coyote as a wrapper for the Microsoft Wavetable, have it provide realistic sounds for its instruments. Yeah, we have Sforzando now, and that helps some, but what we get in Sforzando is a greatly reduced number of instruments to choose from. Why is that? And in one particular case, we get an instrument that sounds as if it's being played by someone's feet instead of their hands (nylon string guitar).
I don't know from shots or holds or whatever you want to call these things. But I do know this, and I know how to use it: musical notation. PG's musical notation editing capabilities, coupled with the ability to control a note's velocity and position in the music, gives me all the control I need. It may not be displayed accurately on the staff, but at least it sounds the way it's supposed to. Only problem is, after I've written out a guitar part, I'm forced to choose between the instrument selections available. The selection is poor at best. But in this respect (instrumentation, specifically for Guitar), BiaB is no better or worse than just about every other piece of music software I've tried.
I do find that some very interesting guitar parts are available with many of BiaB's styles -- and many of those have guitar RealTracks. Just quite recently, in fact, I ran across a style that I tried out on a chord progression I'd written, and I liked the rhythm guitar's sound so much I ended up using it as the melody. It is a RealTrack and is complex enough, fortunately, where, even though it was designed I guess to be a rhythm track, there is sufficient complexity such that it works well as a melody. And it definitely sounds like a guitar, too. And as an added bonus, this particular RealTrack displays what it's doing in musical notation (not all do).
Since it appears that the OP is attempting to build parts in BiaB by manual input of some sort, I do have a recommendation. Consider trying out a guitar synth, like Roland's GR-33 or -55. Using one will write what you play directly to MIDI, so you'll be able to get all your nuances into the program. And then you get to have fun trying to decide which instrument to use. Heh.
I own a GR-33, and I've found that, while it does not contain a large variety of instruments, those it does have are quite good. I've ended up using its own voices with almost all of the parts I've generated with it. A couple of my favorites are a percussive Hammond B3 instrument that supports string bends (think on that for a minute), and, of all things, 12-string guitar.
BTW, I am just a novice at this stuff compared to many of the folks here. I have only been playing Guitar for ~23 years mostly in jazz ensembles and only has a weekend warrior as I have to hold down a day job. So my MusicStudent handle reflects my respect for the art and perspective on my place in my musical journey. But enough about me...
If you want to take Sunshine of Your Love as backing to a live gig, I agree this is clearly not what BIAB does. BIAB does not do note for note covers of Rock and Funk. This observations is not new to the forum. But that should not distract from what it dose do.
However, I am still not clear on what you do with a backing of a 3-piece rock tune like SOYL. If the backing is covering Eric, Jack and Ginger what do you do on the stage? If you are singing there are Karaoke files available with actual band backing. Or GuitarPro likely will have a version of SOYL which is a note for note transcription of all parts.
Just for fun, I spent some time attempting to put the SOYL lick (See Below) into BIAB. I quickly experienced many of the limitations which have been mentioned in this tread and have been discussed in the forum for years... but, I was actually surprised by what I did achieve. I have the chordal-call part sounding pretty good with a RT but the note based response needs work. I will spend a little more time and upload - just for fun.
Sorry you are not finding Guitar love in BIAB for Rock and Funk. Have you thought about moving on to Jazz? Jazz Guitarists are generally a very happy bunch, and BIAB does a significantly better job with those cover.
I was also curious to see if I could score out SOYL's opening guitar lick in BiaB. I did without problems. But then I wrote the part using musical notation.
Etc, etc . . .
I don't see why I couldn't score out the entire guitar part for the song. It isn't very complicated.
Hi all First let me say I am not a guitar player . But it seems to my mind if you want a tight transcription of any guitar part . Your best course of action would be to get a Midi Guitar and play it in, riffs and all. You would need a good midi set of guitar voices a bit more than gm I guess but they are out there I’m sure. There is enough spare channels to allow for the one string per channel Even when imported into the BIAB melody channel if you use 11-16. No probs in Real band of course. Just my thoughts Mike
Mike, I own a Roland GR-33 guitar synth. I have mine set up so that it produces a stereo sound and not six individual channels in MIDI. I've never seen the need to have six separate channels.
But you're right. A good MIDI guitar preserves the nuances and manages to translate them over into MIDI for the most part. At least that's what I found. In my SoundCloud link below, check out the tune "Crocodile Smile" on the "Tears of the Healer" CD. The solo work was my Strat and Roland GR-33. I think I had a blend of Hammond B3 and Sweep going on for that piece.
I also used the GR-33 on "Thankful for What I Have," set to 12-string, and most of the flute part in "Mended Dreams" (Hyperion CD).
Yes thanks for the link. great stuff. I guess the 6 track thing would allow really fine tuning or effects like string bending on an individual string basis. And make for easier finger picking editing. Bit micro surgery like. Mike
Actually, the instrument(s) I was using from my GR-33 support string bends without having to resort to six channels. Same is true for fingerpicking. All the notes are displayed in the MIDI file, thus they can be edited.
I'm sure there's a reason for wanting six channels; I just haven't found one yet.
I did this backing track for a friend's personal home use but decided to upload it onto YouTube this morning after reading this thread on the difficulty it is thought to make good covers of commercial released songs using BIAB.
I believe there are methods and techniques and tools readily available within the BIAB program to accurately and authentically replicate guitar riffs in a BIAB generated backing track. This cover is my demonstration to let you guys be the judge.
-Here - is the link to my forum post in "I just Heard Band in a Box on YouTube" thread.
YES Charlie. As you say well within the scope of BIAB for a lot of stuff.
If you visit my web site link below and go to my Instrumental page you will find a backing track that I made for Sultans of Swing , DS. All of the music was generated by the BIAB midi style with some small bar setting edits along the way like the tempo change at the end. No notes were added edited or removed, There is a link for the mp3 file and the SGU for those that want to have a closer look, This will play in any version of BIAB that has all the Midi Styles Comments welcome Enjoy the music. Mike
Just for fun, I spent some time attempting to put the SOYL lick (See Below) into BIAB. I quickly experienced many of the limitations which have been mentioned in this tread and have been discussed in the forum for years... but, I was actually surprised by what I did achieve. I have the chordal-call part sounding pretty good with a RT but the note based response needs work. I will spend a little more time and upload - just for fun.
OK, all that tape just hit the studio floor. Short of actually playing and recording in the lick and playing as a "performance track", it is just a dead end. Just when I would get two bars to sound good, when BIAB played them a second time, it played them completely different. DUH. No way to create a full note for note arrangement without using midi and the regen of the tracks would drive you nuts - how would one copy and paste portions of good notation into a track which is frozen. This ain't what BIAB was designed to do. Now where is the version of Autumn Leaves I was working on.
Just when I would get two bars to sound good, when BIAB played them a second time, it played them completely different.
RB for the win
Exactly. This effort is best done in a DAW. BIAB was designed to "change things up". Thats what it does and it does it well. All this other stuff, which requires detailed editing, needs to be moved to your DAW.
Mike's demo is an excellent example of typing in the chords and having a good style available. Then Freeze it when it sounds right. That is exactly what BIAB was designed to do. But that won't get you SOYL's opening guitar lick.
Charlie on the other hand showed what is possible, but IMO not optimal. While BIAB added "performance" tracks several years ago, I don't see the value for doing in BIAB what a DAW was designed to do (but that's just me ). If I am going to play and record SOYL's opening guitar lick for my backing - I would prefer to do it in my DAW.
You have to ask yourself - are you having fun? That decides how much BIAB is in your Music. For me my goal is more of me in my music. If I could, I would elinimate all of BIAB and play all the instruments myself or with my mates - but that ain't goin happen. So until the second coming me and BIAB will continue to get along just fine.
lot of good / interesting posts here. I'll try to reply in general.
SOYL - No wasn't planning on doing it live. But recording a cover version . But I felt I hit the wall with the BIAB program on this test - and put it away for another 8 months.
You could really only bring the drum part into a DAW - the bass / guitars were unsuitable I thought. And even then - were the drums following the riff in a GINGER fashion? No.
MIDI - Gosh. I saw midi demos in guitar stores stretching back decades. So many years - so many lacking releases. I finally got the GK Roland setup about 10 years ago. It was bad. Can't remember exactly what I disliked about it.
RECENTLY - got that new midi system, { Fishman } but moved, and it went back in the box before I got too far with it.
Is midi the key to getting what I want with BIAB?
RIFFING
I guess tests here haven't allowed a RIFF approach to the program to succeed yet. I think that's really what I was hoping for.
{ And for the program not to ADD COUNTER STUFF - THAT RUINS/ CHANGES WHAT YOUR'E TRYING TO DO. Which also seems to be a problem, as noted in this thread. }
But I'm guessing that's the BIAB section that needs to be overhauled.
The STYLE section of the program seems to be a hack to try and get toward it - but I normally find it a disappointment.
JAZZ
No haven't thought about moving to jazz quite yet. I note- All my beloved GENRES seem to be getting less and less popular. And, Jazz wasn't a huge crowd pleaser, even when I started, imho. Now ROCK seems to be taking a bad down turn.
FUSION
My all time fusion favorite would be Inner Mounting FLAME - Mahavisnu. But who would pay to come and see the cover versions - lol?
I think there is a basic difference between what BIAB is best at and producing note perfect cover versions of particular songs.
I often create basic backing racks in BIAB and when I need particular riffs I transfer to PoweTracks and play them in from a midi keyboard. For example we play live a version of Wilson Pickett's Midnight Hour. BIAB created the basic track and I added a horn section the way I wanted it in BIAB, but the bass line was not the same distinctive but simple riff on the record. So I played it in on the midi keyboard in PowerTracks.
I'm a guitarist so I can easily see why a midi guitar would allow me to play in exactly what I wanted to a DAW. (I remember seeing Bert Jansch use one to do musical transcriptions of what he actually played.)
But as for note for note covers, there are karaoke midi tracks for sale or often free internet midi sequences. BIAB is wonderful tool that gives you a backing band but not a group of individual virtuosos playing together like Cream.
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Now where is the version of Autumn Leaves I was working on. 
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