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is it just me , I notice the big changes that are.
1 The price of plugins falling to an all time low.
2 the price and availability of the daws and their longevity.
3 How does biab stand in all of this in price and longevity.
Looking for your thoughts, we are after all (biab users) getting on a bit to put it mildly.
I know my son in his thirties thinks its a great program for older, country ,bluesy tunes as he puts it, and amazed at the way it works and sounds but not really for his generation.
What's your thoughts !
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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is it just me , I notice the big changes that are. 1 The price of plugins falling to an all time low. I wouldn't know, I still use hardware synthesizers and will do so until the plug-ins get better than the hardware2 the price and availability of the daws and their longevity. Cakewalk that almost got orphaned and a few that never got resurrected shows that longevity isn't guaranteed. I think the software industry thrives on either upgrades, ads, or subscriptions. After a product reaches a mature level, it's sometimes difficult to find enough features to keep the wheels turning and the cash flowing.3 How does biab stand in all of this in price and longevity. BiaB is a rather unique tool, it does what it does better than the limited competition. It's been around since the DOS days, so it's already ancient by software standards, but PG Music has done a wonderful job at keeping it relevant.Looking for your thoughts, we are after all (biab users) getting on a bit to put it mildly. I know my son in his thirties thinks its a great program for older, country ,bluesy tunes as he puts it, and amazed at the way it works and sounds but not really for his generation. I don't know. I have a EDM styles disk http://www.nortonmusic.com/style24.html that is a pretty good seller. I can't see too many older musicians wanting this. It's a different kind of music. I think if there are enough styles for under 30 people's music, it is still a good tool.What's your thoughts ! Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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eddie1261
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BiaB is a rather unique tool, it does what it does better than the limited competition. IS there competition? Once I learned of BIAB I did not look any further, nor was I looking then. Someone showed it to me and I bought it. I know of Garage Band but they are only kinda sorta like BIAB. What else actually creates these great solos we all seam together from snippets?
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At one time, Jammer Pro was competition but they disappeared over a decade ago. It was MIDI only and stopped being improved.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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At one time, Jammer Pro was competition but they disappeared over a decade ago. It was MIDI only and stopped being improved. Jammer pro was actually a pretty nice program, I used it in conjunction with BIAB and it was actually better for certain styles, blues for example. One of the nice features was 1/8 note resolution, and the ability to easily create your own styles. But it was game over once BIAB added realdrums and later realtracks, I stopped using it then.
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There is some BiaB competition but thus far none of it is the total package like BiaB. Here are a few examples: 1-ToonTrack has a number of music generation products: https://www.toontrack.com/2-chord progression programs: https://autochords.com/https://sourceforge.net/directory/os:windows/?q=chord+progression+generator 3-loop playing programs that you can cut and paste your songs together: http://www.musiciansnetwork.com/software/free/loop-playerThe hitsquad has a lot of programs for just about all needs" http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/There are others but again no where near, thus far that is, what BiaB has to offer.
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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At one time, Jammer Pro was competition but they disappeared over a decade ago.
Yea I remember jammer pro, That's the way I was thinking about programs like that.
In my Opinion biab is a solo sailing ship, to my knowledge there is no competition but not looking on the doom and gloom side of things why is that ?.
I guess I was asking is the bubble burst , Gumtree,Craiglist,ebay are all bursting with home software/hardware for sale etc.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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This is my take. It's not the tool, it's the people using it.
There seems to be very little interest here in making songs that are anything other than what you have listed.
On occasion someone will attempt to do what they think a certain type of music would be. They get A LOT of digital "high fives" and "that's a sure hit." But it isn't. If you were to play those songs for someone who likes that genre they wouldn't agree that it's a hit.
Now, I TOTALLY believe it can be done with this software. It just isn't being done. With the forum being so lopsided, I fear that if someone came here looking for a specific style, they would think it couldn't be done.
Now, I will admit, I haven't heard every song on the user showcase, but I really can't say I've heard a modern pop song, country song, very few modern rock songs, and I don't think I've hard any legitimate rap. Basically almost nothing that sounds like current charts. Again, that doesn't say it couldn't be done...but it's not. There's nothing wrong with that. THAT may be the 1 thing that hurts the product long term. The product is 1st rate. I have NO doubt in that. We just may need some new blood to keep in going.
To be clear, I'm not blaming anyone. I wouldn't want to write music I don't care for either! If you were into what is being done here...you are set! lol
I don't think there are products that rival the loyalty of the people here though. Not to mention the willingness of people here to help. It's awesome!:)
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/25/18 07:14 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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+1 HTL. Could not have said that better.
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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Hear To Learn,
Very astute observations and well stated.
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THAT may be the 1 thing that hurts the product long term. The product is 1st rate. I have NO doubt in that. We just may need some new blood to keep in going.
Too True HTL I GUESS THATS what I'm saying just fewer words.
I don't think there are products that rival the loyalty of the people here though. Not to mention the willingness of people here to help. It's awesome!:)
Well that's correct that was never in doubt, and really don't know why it is being mentioned.
I guess your right lopsided it maybe.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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HTL, I have stated many times in the wishlist forum that I am for anything that broadens the user base. Rap and its various offshoots, modern country, etc, styles, in both RTs and MIDI, would be a welcomed addition IMHO. YMMV
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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HTL, I have stated many times in the wishlist forum that I am for anything that broadens the user base. Rap and its various offshoots, modern country, etc, styles, in both RTs and MIDI, would be a welcomed addition IMHO. YMMV I totally agree. I think enough of us feel the same way. But wanting to have those songs to broaden the base, and having people actually make them seems to be where the gap is.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I'm not sure that Biab can do most current styles. Most modern music is heavily produced inside a DAW. It's all production, not live players laying down tracks. The DAW of choice seems to be Ableton Live. I watched the complete two hour vid of Live 9's introduction some time ago. It's an amazing program but I had a real problem having to hear stuff that I couldn't stand listening to but I managed to get through it. I'm not going to list all the different things it can do, someone can find plenty of Ableton vids if they want. What I can say is watching that vid showed me where the current music scene really is. After watching a lot of other Ableton vids it seems like everybody trying to make music who's under 30 is using it. My point is other than modern country, I'm not sure how Biab can help with a lot of modern music. There's no defined song structure to start. No AABA or AABBC or anything like that. There is little musicianship on most modern recordings, no solos, no hot rhythm sections, horn lines, none of that. Here's the current Billboard Top 40 pop songs: https://www.billboard.com/charts/pop-songsI just listened to first 5, I will listen to all of them over the next few days just out of curiosity. What I hear is heavily produced beat tracks or beatz and bass. If PGM were to create a project for this I guess the thing to do is to hire some well known producers to come up with beatz RT's in whatever different styles they deem appropriate. Other than that, what's in these songs musically? Very little. One has some very basic piano chords going on, one does have some decent guitar backing. There is no live bass, no live drums, no real instruments being played by real players. All the very limited instrument parts are easily created using loops or samples in Ableton. Maybe Biab could give young folks a whole tool kit of electronic beatz and minimalist rhythm parts. Of course all that has already been created over the last 20 years for Abelton users but Biab could do it too I guess. Personally, I think the kids would feel Biab is way late to the party and go ehhh. Part of the problem is if a young person actually bought Biab for this and wanted to find some biab songs in the modern pop style and did a web search. What would they find? Thousands of old fart songs that are 50-70 years old. I can't imagine anything that would be a bigger turn off to a 28 year old than that. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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HTL, I don't think I agree with much of what you have said, and I hope you are not offended by that. I am politely disagreeing, in fact, with about 90% of what you have said. I think there has been an incredible amount of ingenuity by various people who are on the forum and I have really enjoyed listening to their experimentation. Some of the talent on here is phenomenal. The material available in the program lends itself to every genre on the planet. But there is talking, you know, and then there is songwriting. Personally, I would love for you to use the program and show me something that you think sounds really cool or awesome...or better than what you have been been hearing around here. If you want to raise the bar, then raise it dude. Write and Post. I would love to see what you can do so I can try and learn from it because I am here to learn something too. Teach me something HTL. Call me HTL2.
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eddie1261
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As usual, just my dime, but a lot of this has to do with genre. EDM producers seem to like Ableton. A lot of home users seem to like it because it comes free bundled with a lot of interfaces. I got a copy with my M-Audio and another with my Focusrite. Both went immediately into the trash. I have RB to create, Pro Tools, Sonar, or Samplitude to mix. I do not do "the studio tour" in Cleveland, but the 4 I have been to all use Pro Tools. If you count that Graham guy in Florida, 5.... A lot of home level musicians won't spend $600 on Pro Tools because it's out of pocket money rather than a business expense. I did buy it and I like it a lot. When I don't have Rog-Tools available I use it. Every objection I have ever heard to Pro Tools includes the fact that it would take time to learn something new (which I immediately dismiss because you should never stop learning new things) and the price point. Really? $600 is going to break you? I bought it on a Sweetwater credit card with 24 months same as cash so it potentially cost me $25 a month for 2 years. (I paid it off much faster, but that's just how I did it.) What kind of frill could you cut out and save $25 a month? Not go to the movies or dinner one time? Use 10 less gallons of gas? Cut out 2 pizzas? I don't have anything against "free", in fact I love free, but when "free" is the major tipping point in a buying decision, that seems out of balance to me.
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Bob, I kind of disagree with this too. I think it is the problem in all of these conversations. BIAB was never meant to do it all. You can do INSANE modern country or any other genre with this program if you selectively use tracks--even if it is just bass and drums--and then add your own stuff, guitars, keyboards, whatever. On Ableton and the idea that all new music stuff is created in a DAW and the young people would get bored with BIAB. Well yeah. I know and work with people who are Ableton gurus and for some of them, their stuff is meaningless. There is not a shred of music to be found. I don't care if they are 22 or 28 and don't like Band in a Box. Their stuff sounds like crap and they can't play a note. They have never learned a thing. Why should I be concerned if they are bored with a program that requires some musical knowledge? I don't give a flip. Here is my take on modern: Modern is tomorrow. And the only thing standing in between you and modern is your fingers. And your brain I guess. BIAB is just there for the bed. I don't know why people keep overlooking this, over and over and over. You have to play something. BIAB can't do everything for you. But where else can you find a good drummer and bass player that are still sober at 4 o'clock in the morning?? Ok, that was my rant for the month.
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eddie1261
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On Ableton and the idea that all new music stuff is created in a DAW NOTHING is CREATED in a DAW. It is managed in a DAW. It is created on instruments. Or on the instruments contained in BIAB. And the only thing standing in between you and modern is your fingers.
And your brain I guess. And your credit card! But where else can you find a good drummer and bass player that are still sober at 4 o'clock in the morning?? Or, ever.....
Last edited by eddie1261; 04/25/18 02:07 PM.
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HTL,
I don't think I agree with much of what you have said, and I hope you are not offended by that. I am politely disagreeing, in fact, with about 90% of what you have said. LOL, so you're telling me there's 10%? I'll take it! No offense taken my friend. I do think you might be misunderstanding what I am saying though. I will try to clarify. I think there has been an incredible amount of ingenuity by various people who are on the forum and I have really enjoyed listening to their experimentation. Some of the talent on here is phenomenal. The material available in the program lends itself to every genre on the planet. 100% agree! My point wasn't questioning the ingenuity of the people here. That speaks for itself. TONS of talent here! I also completely agree that the PROGRAM lends itself to every genre of on planet. The people not so much. WE as a forum lean pretty heavily in a very few directions. It's not bad; but that doesn't change that it is what it is. It's not chart sounding material. We can tell ourselves it is. But if you put it in with the top 10 of most charts and ask someone who isn't biased which one sounds out of place, I feel they would nail it. But there is talking, you know, and then there is songwriting. Personally, I would love for you to use the program and show me something that you think sounds really cool or awesome...or better than what you have been been hearing around here. If you want to raise the bar, then raise it dude. Write and Post. It's not about hearing something cool. I think what I hear here is REALLY cool. I'm going to repeat that because I don't want it to get lost. I think what I hear here is REALLY cool! My God, the work and creativity of You, Floyd, Tom, Bud and Janice...and I could go ON AND ON...is without question. Please don't in ANY way take that I am questioning the talent and creativity here. Not. At. All. The point was, it doesn't sound like chart material. Charts aren't what make something cool or not. However, there really isn't anything on here that sounds like current charted music in most popular genres. This may sound harsh, but I think some writers here are too good to write what's on the charts right now. That's not a joke either. I would love to see what you can do so I can try and learn from it because I am here to learn something too. Teach me something HTL. Call me HTL2. LOL, I highly doubt I would teach you anything. I think you are doing just fine on your own. You know I'm a fan of your music...you do, right? There is more creativity in one of your songs than all of the charts combined right now. TOTAL respect for you and the forum. I'm going to bow out for the sake of I don't want my comments to be taken wrong. Very cool question all the way around. Great discussion too. Peace out.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Hello Again HTL, Great reply and great point. I am glad you raised it so I could argue it. I actually agree with 90% of what you JUST said so we flipped. My thing is this: I don't really give a....[hoot] what's on the charts. I am only focused on writing what I think sounds good, and stuff that takes a lot of work to make good. I rarely raise my head to check out the "charting" music on Spotify, and when I do go there, I can't take it, and I go back to my guitar and amp. Seriously. I am obsessed with sound and tone and notes. It's that simple.
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