PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic cmon everybody ..eddie needs you ..!!

ok why don't you thank Simon COWELL (me) FOR the reviews c'mon, That I leave from certain songs ..you know who you are ,the post from hear to learn ...recently stated the obvious …why always the brilliant , amazing, you sound like the Beatles ...etc ..etc.. …!!! Nope you don't..!!

Can we not in honesty step up and be better than this and , one day tell/help folks/forumites to get/be better by god honest critiques .

This is one hell of a forum But it is not an honest forum lets all change/ by being the best by helping each other by critiquing each other by the experience/honesty/decency/down right humanity/ and stop all the crap.

Id love to hear that my friend ….!!that was a good song ... but..i heard this and that...?

Surely honesty is the best policy...more importantly you WILL GUIDE AND HELP SOMEONE WHO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THERE MUSIC AS WE ARE...Excuse the caps my friends ..well thank you

Hi Beatmaster,

This is an interesting topic. Thank you for posting it and giving me the opportunity to clarify my thinking!

Others may well disagree with me but here are my thoughts on people posting in 'User Showcase'. Since it's not mentioned, I'm anticipating that this is the forum you are meaning.


'Users Showcase' is a showcase forum and not a 'Song Critique' forum nor a 'Work in progress' forum. Some people ask for critical thoughts and some don't.

I have noticed over the years that if someone does ask for critical feedback, forum members have no hesitation in providing constructive and worthwhile thoughts. Because some people have much more experience in various musical areas than others, sometimes those thoughts are very valuable and useful. Over time, I've picked up quite a lot of useful information from reading posts.

If a poster does not ask for critical feedback, though, I believe that it is courteous not to give any and so I don't.

Most people in 'Users Showcase' post the very best work that they know how to create. Their efforts are genuine and sincere. They are proud of what they have done and they want to share what has usually taken them many hours to make. What right do I have to step on that feeling of satisfaction and that sense of accomplishment unless the user is asking for constructive input?


I see that the way in which 'User Showcase' works is about respecting peoples' efforts and appreciating each person's work as individual because each person comes from their own unique background with their own unique set of skills. Doesn't being "honest" in the context that you provide mean that you are comparing something to a concept in your mind that you see as being 'above average' or 'the best'? You know, not everything has to be comparative. It's possible to celebrate success sincerely and honestly by being non-comparative on many different levels... not everyone is a Nobel prize winner and that doesn't have to be the one-size-fits-all measuring stick.

Some people on Users Showcase write incredible songs even though they are wheel-chair bound, have very limited physical control and they are unable to talk. There are also those who write and present songs after having worked in the publishing and writing industries for decades. In addition, there are also people who have no understanding of music and who have discovered that BIAB gives them a reason to start playing around and having fun. These three examples are just a tiny smattering of who posts in 'Users Showcase'.


Anyone who posts a song and asks for critical feedback will get that. Try it and see.


It depends on what you mean by "honesty".

Are you saying that it's OK to walk up to someone on the street, whom you don't know, and say something like, "I really like that outfit you're wearing but you know you could enhance it and make it much better by [insert some suggestions here].

I believe that until anyone asks for my opinion, giving it is more akin to interfering than being helpful. I'm hardly an expert when it comes to music. Each song I write and each song I listen to teaches me something new most of the time.

One thing that some users do before posting their creation on 'Users Showcase' is to upload a song to Soundcloud (or equivalent) in private mode. They then send a link and seek feedback from those whose opinions they respect.

Also, Petimar recently started a thread in the 'Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production' forum and asked if this would be a good location to place a work on which he is seeking some critical feedback. I'd never thought about it before but that particular forum does seem to be the ideal spot for songs that are a work in progress! Maybe Petimar will start a trend

Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to consolidate my thinking. Much appreciated.

Regards,
Noel

• one of my songs: I Like Walking Beside You

I've always found the people serious about their music ask for help. I think we're better served to encourage the beginners by appreciating their efforts and letting the advanced take care of themselves. The User Showcase isn't an American Idol style contest but a place for users to share their original work for others to listen to and that's printed in bold letters. Posters are requested to list the RealTracks, styles and other software used to create their songs. There is not a single mention of giving reviews, critiques or criticisms of songs posted. The stated intent is to enjoy the songs and see what others are doing with BIAB/RB. Simon Cowell needs to find another forum thread, maybe Recording, mixing, performance and production or Off Topic where composers can specifically post with requests for reviews and critiques.

Charlie,

I really admire your post. You said exactly what I was trying to say using about 10% of the words I wrote!

Regards,
Noel

Thank you sir.

I feel that negative feedback is more DESTRUCTIVE than CONSTRUCTIVE and quickly becomes divisive.

If the commenter has credentials or experience then their advice is respected and heeded but they generally remain neutral and silent.

Musicians are a sensitive lot and easily offended. Personally, I resent unsolicited advice from anyone who is obviously less experienced than myself. That being said, I normally invite constructive criticism.

Tactful criticism requires the wisdom of Solomon and few of us qualify.

The above responders said it all and very well. I’ll throw in my two cents worth which will, admittedly, add little to what’s been said.

If one feels there is an excess of civility and decorum within the User Showcase then there are surely other board options. A lot of the more production oriented boards tend, I think, more toward the “let it all hang out” approach. Are they more honest or simply more purposefully contentious? Dunno.

I listen to every song I comment on at least 2-3 times. I read the backstory if available as well as all the production data. However, If not asked I’m not gonna inject myself into the discourse by parsing out the production for critiques. But I will always comment on what I perceive as the positive aspects of the song.

Yes, of course, I hear things I would have done differently. Does that mean I’d do it better? Or simply differently? That takes considerable thought for me. However as others have said if a poster requests specific constructive comments on a lyric or specific production values I’ll then be glad to offer an opinion assuming that it’s a topic for which I have some experience. .

But irrespective of what I write I’m not particularly enthralled with it being referred to as crap - even obliquely.

Cheers,

Bud

All absolutely excellent responses to the O/P's post.

They in fact highlight the quality that is represented time and again in these forum pages.

If a poster requests critical comment I will provide it.

If they didn't ask for appraisal and I liked the material I will often still respond with a comment to say I was impressed.

On the other hand, if they didn't ask for appraisal and I was not taken by the material, there's simply no need for me to make any comment.

As has been mentioned, they have put their best foot forward, and good on them for doing just that.

I will often ask for mix critiques on my uploads, for the simple reason that there are people on the forum that are better at mixing than I am. And, I have received great advice and learned a few things along the way.

As far as the song itself goes, whether it is "good" or not is a matter of opinion, not everyone likes the same things.

Same deal with leaving a song comment, if someone asks for that level of critique I'll give it, if not, I won't.

And it has to do with credibility also. I'm more inclined to a trust a comment from someone who's music I have heard, because I have an idea of where they are at musically. I give zero credibility to someone who has never posted a song.

This is an interesting thread and in many ways gets to the core of what the user showcase is all about.

My observation has been that there is a regular group of people on the forum who submit songs (and good luck to them on that) but it does seem to me that they get so familiar with each other and saying good things to each other, that should someone post a song that is a total load of rubbish that somehow they others in the group will still praise it.

I have head songs on the showcase where the singer is "simply roaring and bawling" comes across as they cobbled the whole song (if you could call it that together in 15 minutes)

God only knows why they submitted the song in the first place, and still song gets a lot of praise from others. And these songs aren't from newbies either but people who submit on a regular basis.

Sometimes I imagine that the others in the group who are doing the praising are simply doing it totally out of jest, like "hey this is so bad but you have giving me such a great laugh that I will encourage and inflate your ego so much that you will do it again"

And of course there are other songs on the showcase that are simply stunning and deserve all the adulation and more that they get.

The problem as I see it there is no consistency.

axeplayer,

Your reply seems to indicate that you are not all that familiar with the diversity of people who visit Users Showcase and who post songs and instrumentals.

Have you posted a song? Given your comments above, I get the impression that you might not have. I'd like to ask some questions for you to consider...


1) One of the users that I'm aware of in Users Showcase had a car accident a while back and was left badly brain damaged. This person still loves making music and wants to be part of the community. They are limited in what they can do.

What do you say to that person who is working at their very best to produce what it sounds like you'd probably call poor music?

Quite honestly, I'm in awe of what they can do and the hurdles they have overcome to be part of our forum.


2) Then there are forum members whose voices and abilities are fading with age and with sickness. We've had a number of people die from terminal illnesses while active members of the forum and they've soldiered on, putting their "best foot forward" (to quote Videotrack) for as long as they possibly can.

What do you say to them when they've given their all to create something that, while it might sound mediocre to you, is a great achievement for them?


3) There are also some who live in lonely circumstances, didn't learn music at any stage in their lives and BIAB and Users Showcase bring meaning to their present existence. Isn't what they create worth celebrating? How much does it hurt to say "you've done a great job" when, by their own musical standards, they surpassed what they did last time even though they don't sound like anywhere close the standard of professional musician?

The thing is, whenever we make a comment, chances are that we have no idea about the circumstances that surround the person who posted the music. This is something that I'm always mindful of.

In the last 12 months the forum has seen...

• a person travelling a pretty tough road from prostate cancer
• three people, that I know of, who have had a stroke
• a musician with lukemia
• a couple who have lost three children and one of whom finds peace and comfort in writing and singing songs
• another who is having a rough trot with cancer
• etc., etc., etc.

These are just some of many.

I don't want to bore you. All I'm trying to say is that before making judgement calls such as, "I have heard songs on the showcase where the singer is 'simply roaring and bawling' [and] comes across as they cobbled the whole song", isn't it worthwhile finding out a little more?

Many of the long term members of User Showcase have gained an insight into the lives of one another that people outside the forum have no idea about.

I believe that Users Showcase is one of those forums that it's necessary to be involved with for a while before it's possible to see how and why it works.

Regards,
Noel

We are humans...hopefully.

A lot (most?) of the comments in the showcase are simply "attaboys" for the poster and are not intended to be honest critiques. And as others have said far better, that is appropriate for this forum. Knowing that, I generally don't spend much time reading the comments on any song because they are not for me!

First of all, to whoever started this thing, Eddie needs nobody. And never has. Eddie states HIS opinion. Eddie will never tell you that you are wrong. Eddie will, however, go to great lengths to explain why he is right.

Despite Eddie suddenly talking about himself in the 3rd person.....

I do things how I do things. Others may find that abhorrent behavior. While I do not deny that I have a lot of Sheldon Cooper in me (those who do not watch The Big Bang Theory won't get that reference), I also believe that knowledge should be shared. If you don't know how to tie a necktie, I will show you. If you don't know how to throw a curve ball, I will show you. And if you don't know a major scale from a minor scale, I will show you.

As far as the personal preference of the forums, my original point that stirred up this tempestuous conversation was that IN MY OPINION people who make it their life's priority to make sure THEIR song stays at the top of of a relatively meaningless music forum (this isn't Billboard here) MAY-MIGHTY-MAYBE do so because they lack self confidence and need constant reassurance they they've still "got it". My perspective on that is as such. "This is my song. Listen, don't listen, comment, don't comment, I don't care. I don't write for you. I write for me. It is a cathartic activity. I tell stories of my life and it helps my emotional state to get things off my chest." That is why I write songs.

I have had a difficult life, though that has been largely self-inflicted. I have a difficult time allowing people to get close to me. I have a difficult time trusting people, because eventually they all leave my life. I have exactly 4 people I call friend. When people leave my life, I burn that bridge immediately and choose to never speak to them again. I went through a nasty one of those last year when I realized that a music acquaintance of 30 years has absolutely no respect for my musical skill set, and in fact kind of laughs at me when I am not in the room. It is important that I keep toxic people like that out of my life. Crucial, in fact, to someone affected by PTSD.

Now, I also admit that I am not a day at the beach. I have a mean streak as wide as a 4 lane highway, and it behooves people to stay on my good side. For the most part, unless it is one of those 4 friends I mentioned on the other side of the equation, I will unplug your life support machines to charge my cell phone. I do have an aspect of my personality that some perceive as arrogance. I do not agree, but remember I also think I am wonderful just the way I am. To bring that concept back to music, I view performing like this. I do not say "Well, the public likes this song so I have to play that. And then there's THAT song so I have to play that." Nope. "THIS is what I am going to play. My job is to entertain you from the stage. Your job is to adore me from the chairs. That's how this transaction works. And if you don't like what I am playing, you remember that door you came through to get in here?" I don't need your approval. I would like to have it, as that is the way I gauge my songwriting ability, but I don't need it. I will not change how I write (and in fact I CAN'T change how I write) for you. Or anybody else.

Every morning when I brush my teeth, I look in the mirror and say out loud "The only person I have to impress today is ME." And at night when I go to bed, I say, again out loud, "Would you do anything different if you had the chance to live today again?" If the answer is yes, I failed the day and have to do better tomorrow. The point of that is that it is MY decision, and the core of the "one day at a time" way of living.

To try and bring this back to your topic (And thank you for using my name in your post, by the way. How flattering. Yes, that WAS sarcasm. I don't need the acclaim, trust me.) some people post songs for your approval. I post songs for your enrichment. (Well, I DID. I don't think I am going to post anymore.) Every song of mine, literally every one, is a story of my life that I want to share with people. I write far better than I converse in person. I don't talk on the phone for a reason. I have never written a song that was "fiction". I do not and will never "compete" for views. The whole thing about the bumping was mainly an observation that there is a handful of people who selfishly try to control the top page of the songwriter forum to keep their name in everyone's eyes by bumping the post for weeks. I won't ever do that. So again I say, I will never tell you that you are wrong. I will, however, tell you why I am right.

Good day, from your little ray of sunshine.

+1 Noel

My friends know that I have suffered a severe stroke which has left me both mute and paralyzed. Even writing this comment is a mammoth undertaking.

I don't approach the User Showcase as an audition for AGT or a record label but rather as an opportunity to participate in this wonderful PG Family.

My submissions are admittedly naked, raw, and unpolished but I have learned that I will never be flamed or have my ego crushed by anyone on these PG Forums.

I strive to be helpful and encouraging to everyone with my comments. I feel that I have experience to share or I don't chime in.

Immediately after my stroke, I went into a deep prolonged depression. Dr. Peter Gannon's wonderful software gave me a new lease on life and I want to share my joy with my PG Family.

Dr. Gannon has permitted me to work silently backstage so as to give meaning and purpose to my life. Few even realize what I am doing backstage. (Thank you, Peter)

I don't get the opportunity to get on the User Showcase as much as I would like, life keeps getting in the way of my music. I post songs because this old fart still likes to play and I know that I am not as good as some here and that I will never be a star. I don't care.

I listen to others' songs and comment on them, usually good comments, but if someone want some constructive comments I will give them if necessary.

If anyone wants honest critiques then they should join a profession pay site where pros will give them honest opinions. Most all here should have very thick skin if they do that. YMMV

WELL thank you all for putting me clearly in the picture I feel as though I am way out of order with my posting yea and sorry.

I guess Noel you are right, and the other posters, I just got a lovely insight into the forum and some of the members, who face trials and tribulations in their life's.

No I did not know any of the facts about members that was brought up in this posting.


Eddie I do not know where you get the notion that it was you being named ..cmon everybody who sings this song yep that eddie.

That's briefly how I see it.
The Showcase is an encouragement forum for all that submit their efforts, regardless of any outwardly perceived lyrical writing or musicianship skills, and to emphasize the stunning abilities of BIAB itself.

I listen to a lot of the Showcase submissions but very rarely comment.
Why?....because my comment in most cases would not at all reflect the consensus of other comments within the thread and someone would think I'm just being unnecessarily snarky and I would never want to be mistakenly perceived as such.
Why would I take that risk on an open forum.

In this context of personal creativity, subjective as it is, I'm just not the personality type to just hand out the (previously stated) "attaboys" and "this is your best yet" comments by default when I might actually think much improvement is in order especially if the writer wants to truly improve.

But...who am I.....someone may read one of my honest (solicited) assessments, listen to one of my song writing efforts and think:
"your songs suck, your mix sucks, you can't sing so what do you know and stop injecting yourself into my creative 'safe space'".

As adults....if anyone posts a song on a public forum I recommend one have the skin of a snow tire and accept or ignore any/all comments.
We're all adults here and if one gets offended easily that's an internal problem that reflects a lack of confidence with their on going efforts and the inability to take criticism.

I had an experience from a contributor here via email (many months ago) where I was asked my opinion on one of his songs.
I thought...ok....it's off the forum, sounds sincere, I'll listen several times and provide a well thought out commentary.
It was not received very well and I perceived his subsequent songs reflected the same issues that I tried to help him improve upon.
No matter....I tried to help and was glad to try and do so.

I still like to write/record because I have been doing it a long time and it's kind of like creative therapy....I don't do it with the goal of perpetually promoting myself and hoping for constant praise of favorable/patronizing opinions.
Should anyone comment on my material I'm genuinely appreciative and will thank them for taking the time to listen whether the comment is favorable or not.
If I can keep any distance from the 'you totally suck meter'....that works for me.

If you're truly passionate about your song writing efforts and improving upon it no comment should discourage you from continuing on.

I'll stop prattling on....my candor here may even offend someone.

Back to it.....(respectfully submitted, of course)

Beatmaster,

At the risk of sounding boastful, my "crap" has recently been chosen as the intro and theme by Classic Country DJs in New Zealand and London, UK. I also am very humbled and proud to be streaming in Scotland Hospital Radio; VA Hospital in Tulsa; several streaming stations in Canada's Maritime Provinces; and many that I've forgotten.

In fact, two of my BIAB tunes were featured yesterday from NZ.

I have had the honor and privilege of writing for three well-known recording artists, two in Country and one in Folk genres.
One of the Country artists has 11 gold and three platinum albums. Apparently, they don't think my stuff is "crap".

Meanwhile, I have been instrumental in getting airplay for several other forumites.