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First of all as a full disclosure; I don't post to the user showcase. I don't even use BiaB to make songs (I use it as a practice/learning tool for bass and guitar). Furthermore, as I'm in the middle of a particularly busy period at work, I barely even had the chance to boot up the program over the last couple of months. That said, I still like to pop into the user showcase and play songs over my headphones while I work, and lurk the various discussion forums when I have an extra 15 minutes here and there. To my great sadness and disappointment, I have seen some posts here which contribute absolutely zilch and seem to be solely intended to hurt, diminish, and eviscerate a huge segment of this community, and to suck every scintilla of the joy and sense-of-accomplishment of the good folks who take pleasure in the pursuit of music. Granted, good points have been raised, and I am a huge proponent of free speech--up until the point it crosses the line into bullying. As many have pointed out already, the User Showcase forum is not for soliciting critiques, otherwise it would likely be titled accordingly. As such, I courteously request that the people posting here, who have a darkness they feel the need to render into text and post online, use the Band in a Box subreddit for such purposes. Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/BandInABox/ Thanks in advance, DB P.S. Just a thought: It might be a good idea for the admins/mods to create a "Critique my Song" sticky on the subreddit for those seeking such feedback.
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DeaconBlues,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. There has been a groundswell of activity along the lines you have discussed that is profoundly irritating--but that is the problem with trolls. That is what they want to do. They WANT to make you angry and irritated because it is what they live for.
And--as cowards--they hide behind fake names. They cite free speech and it all sounds good, but they are full of it. I do not see a solution anymore than I see peace coming in the Middle East (or America for that matter) but I see a problem.
Here's a representative fictional example for you (I am creating an amalgamation of different trolls and combining them into one name for educational purposes):
You have a vapor-like creature that goes by the name DickyDickyDicky (or whatever). This imaginary vapor constantly wants us to believe he is the champion of free speech. But in actual threads, like one yesterday, in the thread "Eddie needs help" which started off sounding very much like the mad rantings of a drunken crack addict by another guy, DickyDickyDicky unilaterally states that song posters on the forum-ALL SONG POSTERS--are essentially delusional losers who have no real talent. It is what he says. Then he ducks back behind his computer. He is a symbol and metaphor for the whole anonymous Internet trolling thing. So, using him as a vaporous example because DickyDickyDicky chooses to be a vapor, I can produce this evidence:
Our unreal and non-human electronic cyber vapor going by the name DickyDickyDicky bought Band-in-a-Box in 2012. He originally says he is a singer-songwriter who needs help. He does not know how to use a DAW and wants help with that. He receives tons of help and education on how to use a DAW and press the on button from forum song posters who encourage him and his growth. But, in all this time--since 2012--he doesn't post a tune. That's cool. You don't have to. But he IS a regular leader in the "song posters are delusional" crowd.
Trouble is, our man DickyDickyDicky is exactly the type of destructive force you talk about--their mascot almost. And there are others. But you will never win with these types.
Whenever I finally have had enough and come out and say "look, these people and their kind are morons and idiots, please stop replying to their cowardly gibberish" some people say "Oh, look, David is being mean! He took up for the song posters and said the trolls were morons and idiots!! He's mean! And he's a phony too! Boo hoo!"
It will never stop. They will always scream about their free speech agenda. It will go on and on and on and on and on until enough songwriters--people who are using the product (or any product)--speak up and say "Hey man, it's time for you to go somewhere else."
Reddit??
How about Siberia???
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Wow, that DickyDickyDicky guy sounds like a real Meanie!  But seriously David, I promise to lighten up if you will too!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/27/18 04:36 AM.
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I'm gonna grab a beer and a bag of potato chips later tonight and read that thread closer.... looks entertaining at a cursory glance. And no..... I ain't gonna step into it. Not even. For a minute I thought DB09 was talking about me. 
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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They tried those tactics with me, but I'm still here. I think it's a defense mechanism they use for offense.
I didn't know BB had a Reddit, thanks!
Edit: That was a Ghost Town, so trolls will flock where there's action. Good luck!
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Formerly a daily forum participant, I don't post very often anymore because the forum has become so confrontational. I don't like confrontation, so I usually opt out of participation.
This topic is important enough to venture out of the shadows.
I think trying to divide the forum into good guys and bad guys then suggesting the bad guys go away is not the best solution. Dividing people generally leads to flame wars as both groups try to dominate and win. It also tends toward some form of speech or activity suppression that groups impose on one another ("don't dump a bunch of songs" or "Don't keep bumping songs back to the top") neither of which is a PGMusic rule.
I think what worked in the past in many forums is to cultivate a culture of open communication where ideas are discussed without attacking those who present the ideas. I've noticed that forums which allow Ad Hominem attacks pretty much always implode or turn into shark dens where only the most persuasive communicator's opinion is tolerated and everybody else has to get in line or get bullied.
When ideas are discussed without personal attacks (open or passive aggressive) it has the effect of uniting rather than dividing. Studies show that consensus based decisions tend to eliminate dissention, because it isn't consensus until everyone buys in.
My 2 cents.
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Formerly a daily forum participant, I don't post very often anymore because the forum has become so confrontational. I don't like confrontation, so I usually opt out of participation. I've heard several people saying the same thing. It would be easy for me to say, "that seems to be more our society today" but, in all reality, that doesn't have to be that way here. I have missed your comments Pat. This topic is important enough to venture out of the shadows.
I think trying to divide the forum into good guys and bad guys then suggesting the bad guys go away is not the best solution. Dividing people generally leads to flame wars as both groups try to dominate and win. It also tends toward some form of speech or activity suppression that groups impose on one another ("don't dump a bunch of songs" or "Don't keep bumping songs back to the top") neither of which is a PGMusic rule. I have to say; I haven't been here as much, however, it seems there has been a bit of a reset. The posts over the last few days seem civil from what I can tell. Fingers crossed. Perhaps, it has been a learning lesson. I know it has been for me. When the "Pat Marr's" stop posting; it's time to reflect a bit. I think what worked in the past in many forums is to cultivate a culture of open communication where ideas are discussed without attacking those who present the ideas. I've noticed that forums which allow Ad Hominem attacks pretty much always implode or turn into shark dens where only the most persuasive communicator's opinion is tolerated and everybody else has to get in line or get bullied.
When ideas are discussed without personal attacks (open or passive aggressive) it has the effect of uniting rather than dividing. Studies show that consensus based decisions tend to eliminate dissention, because it isn't consensus until everyone buys in.
My 2 cents. Right on. I have looked at my part in this and have decided to "chill out" a bit. David Snyder and I had a great conversation about many things. The big take away for me was about the showcase. It's a showcase. It's not there for critique unless stated as so. I honestly, and this is SO stupid, thought I was helping by my statements. I have never once thought a song in there has been crap AT ALL. I am all for learning and supporting people. I would bet, a number of my comments would not have people feeling that way. THAT rubbed some people the wrong way...and rightfully so. Lesson learned from me. I'm not saying I had a big impact on the forum...lol...not by a LONG shot. I'm just taking accountability for my part in any of it. It seems others have too. I blame the WHOLE thing on the removal of the joke thread. Thanks for stepping up and saying something Pat. Hey look...two cents!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Hi Pat,
This is not directed at you or your specific comments, but at the issue you have referred to.
Surrounding the "song posting controversy" I felt I needed to make a few observations here since I was one of the people involved in the latest skirmish regarding song postings and song posters. Perhaps I was the most vitriolic of all in what I felt was a clear duty to stand up for song posters in the face of what I would call a few clear-cut examples of vicious and unprovoked attacks from the sidelines.
However, I made some friends along the way. As Hear to Learn stated, we had a long conversation on the phone about what was going on for more than an hour. We had a great time, and a lot of laughs and became buddies at the end. Maybe it was because we picked up the phone and called one another instead of just typing.
I for one do not think I have had too many "confrontational" moments since I started in 2015. I have tried to spend most of my time supporting and encouraging as my thousands of encouraging posts and suggestions to writers will validate.
But there were certain things that lend themselves to "creating boundaries" as psychologists would say. I have to be pushed pretty far until I seek to set boundaries but several things did it for me.
1.) Many comments started to appear along the lines of "those song posters need to...should...oughta..can't..." etc. etc. etc. Most of the "shoulds" involved "should not pat one another on the back so much" or "say they think they have a hit" etc.
2.) 99.99 % of these comments came from people who don't post songs and many of them were rude and snarky.
3.) To me, many of them were profoundly presumptuous. Some implied: "If you listen to me I can tell you what a hit sounds like or how to mix one." Although I have never actually created a song--or maybe two.
4.) Those who went on the offense against the posters started it--they declared war, so to speak. And their comments were generalized to all song posters. I will never get controversial in any area of my life unless you start it. But if you start it--you should probably be ready because under the right circumstances I will come back and I will come back hard. I come back most vehemently against generalized comments.
4.) It seemed that some of these people wanted freedom of speech to "fire away" but were aghast and appalled that anyone would "fight back." I have found this to be the case in most forums where the anonymous folks go on the offensive. If the non-anonymous folks call them out and fire back they almost always cite "it's my freedom speech to say what I want!!!!" Sure, and it is my freedom of speech to say I think what you just said was either ridiculous or woefully misinformed.
5.) If once or twice in your life you feel the need to fire back, this does not mean you are stirring up controversy, it just means you have had enough.
6.) It is not the responsibility of the song posters to play Woodstock and walk around with flowers in their hair and smile to keep the peace, just to keep the peace, if outrageous things are being said by other people.
But, as stated, I for one decided to stand up against some things I thought were getting wacky and after some volatile moments, I declared a truce with several members on the opposite side of the fence. But I guess we all said what we felt we needed to say.
However, I do know for a fact that people who write songs and are artists (and this is evidenced by the fact that they write and post, thus making it clear that they have been working) will have artistic temperaments.
People who have artistic temperaments will flare up when someone starts telling them that they have a special knowledge or insights on what "good is" or what "great is" or what "professional is" or or "modern is" or what anything is.
Since the dawn of time, artists and critics have mixed about as well as oil and water.
Artists and critics ARE different. To any critic, an artist's first response has always been and will always be: "Yeah, and who the...are you?"
But, if this artistic instinct did not exist you would have 0 songs on the song forum and there would be nothing to get controversial about because there would be zero activity.
Unless the forum decided to create a special thread to talk about toilet stoppers or something.
My 3 cents. Or maybe that was 10. Or 11. No more than 13.
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