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Hi fellows.
I have a question for somebody who had been in (through) my situation.
One of the hardest dilemmas with music for me for past years was making a decision between writing new songs or focus on mixing/polishing new and past material. Most of my tunes are in "sketch" stage. I keep telling myself that when I have more time, I will come back to these sketches and re-write them. Some, I actually do. The most painful part is time. I know that I can write 2-3 song sketches as I do now, with time it will take me to craft the mix of a single tune to the point of it being more or less complete.
I tend to follow this philosophy...Technology is a big friend of creativity. Do not have to go far. I am sure, most of us remember serial port dial-up modems and dual 5" floppy computers (the ones, without the hard drive)... Look at us now! I am not saying that skill is not important, it absolutely is, but I have a feeling that many routine things we do, when recording/mixing will take much less time in not too distant future.
I guess, the core of my question is to people that have more free time now, than they did before. Do you find joy, or at least interest in re-mixing / re-doing of some stuff from the past or it feels more like a fulfilling a commitment?
Thank you,
Misha.
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Misha, I generally work on one or two songs until they are finished. 99% of the time when they are finished I will no longer work on them. However on occasions someone will make a suggestion that I think would improve the song so I change it.
Every once in a while I will have an "I love me day" where I will go back and play some of my old songs. Generally songs that I did 2 or more years ago are not as good as today's songs because of either better equipment/sounds, better techniques or both.
IMHO if you only keep your songs in the "sketch" stage you will become very good at that technique but nothing else. Take a "sketch" stage song and finish it via mixing. Post it and ask for critiques. The friendly folks here will help.
IMHO the only way to get better at anything is practice, practice and practice.
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
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Personally speaking.... Yes....I have some songs that I never fully finished up or developed further. Although I do have just a couple of current song ideas ('sketches') I've not completed yet all others are abandoned ideas from my very early song writing years in the mid 70's and felt they were too dated to maintain my interest. So I continued on to new subject matter and always finished them up to my satisfaction regardless of how much time it may have taken. For me...it's choosing an interesting, non-cliche subject to write about. That's the key in keeping me interested enough to finish up....the subject I choose and employing good lyric writing discipline. I wouldn't think of myself as a song writer if I'd determined most of my writing attempts never surpasses the 'sketch' stage as you state it. If it's not a complete fleshed out subject or story line/lyrics....it's only a 'sketch' of something I was too lazy to think through and finish up. I am aware there are many that would disagree with my take on this subject.  I have no interest in achieving 'variety'....I aspire to 'quality'. Of course, 'quality' is ultimately determined by the listeners of one's music. All of us here have our different approaches to song writing and what we personally want to achieve. To each their own....a good day to all.
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 11/13/18 06:03 AM.
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Hi Mario, chulaivet1966 . Thank you for sharing! I guess, my question is a bit vague. Here is analogy... Dave (BlueAttitude) helped me greatly by explaining some of his workflow. Since we had some tools that he and I both had, it was simple to grasp that knowledge. My mixes became better, and I was able to achieve things much faster, saving whole bunch of time (Thank you Dave!). More on technology...Recently Nectar 3 came out, which has some amazing features, including "unmasking"... which basically carves out EQ of track that has frequency clash with vocals, so vocals sit better and whole mix is less muddy. Then for the most part you do just the creative stuff, adjusting things to your liking, not just spending some "quality" time on "peeling potatoes". Another aspect, what I consider a "sketch" is intentionally leaving "spaces" in the tune unoccupied. My idea is that at some point in my life I will find enthusiast that would help me fill those "spaces". What I mean by that is this.... I am a crappy keyboardist or guitar player etc. I can practice day and night, but never be as good as someone who has strong relation to specific instrument. If I try to do it myself... I will surely fill those "spaces" but will most likely make a scarecrow out of that tune Here is re-phrase of initial question. If I had 4-8 weeks of free time now and a willing, good guitar/keyboard accompanist, I would surely re-do some of my tunes from 10-20 years back, and I am positive, it would be a joyful process. I am not sure however how I would feel about those tunes couple of decades ahead, given that I am still alive and well. So my question remains open, do people find joy in re-doing things from way ago? Or when they do it, it is more like a tribute, rather than creative process?
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 11/13/18 06:08 AM.
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Hi Mario, chulaivet1966 . Thank you for sharing! do people find joy in re-doing things from way ago? Or when they do it, it is more like a tribute, rather than creative process? To answer directly to this.....yes. When I first got BIAB I had (5) songs pretty well finished except for a particular instrument track or two that I really wanted to add but I didn't have the skills to accomplish. IE: sax lines and/or a lead axe line....I can do all other instrument track requirements for my drivel. Hence...after getting BIAB in 2012 and discovering all it could do I revisited those (5) songs with a new found energy, finished them up and they're on the BIAB sound cloud site. If one is in a creative drought BIAB can be a real shot of adrenaline for those of us that need the final touches on a song that is so close to completion. Would I revisit those unfinished efforts from the 70's.....no. Back to it.....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 11/13/18 06:44 AM.
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I rarely go back to rework old songs. I have done that a few times and I'd rather move on and write new stuff.
If you're stuck at a place.... you need to figure out what you need to do to push past that point and get unstuck. So if you have a bunch of tunes in the "sketch stage" you need to work on taking them to rough finished.
Better to have 1 rough finished than 12 sketches.... in my opinion.
Once you have finished, well constructed tunes, then you can work on the mixing and polishing stages. No need to polish a sketch because it isn't ready for prime time. You could do it for practice but it's lots of time spent on something thats not finished.... finish a few.
Regarding going back to old tunes. Unless I do a rewrite of some sort, the song rarely gets reworked. I move on and keep writing.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks for feedback! Maybe I misspoke or the meaning of word "sketch" is different in music world than in visual arts. Judging by responses it is. In 18th-19th and even early 20th centuries, sketchbooks were very popular. The most common ones were in the form of dairies with text, poems (songs too) with hand drawings every few pages. Some of these "drawings" are complete miniature watercolors, some are ink sketches. In both cases-they are complete pictures, that tell a story. They are not "unfinished"... There are some bands that have 1 minute songs... I am sure somebody will say: Yeah, whatever, they are not "real" musicians, songs must be at least 3:30 minutes or such. To me, these bands, if they produce quality and diverse material are geniuses. In my opinion, if a very short song has a form and a story - is a song... even if it is 30 seconds long (yes, I have heard such songs too ) Most of my tunes, do have a form and a story. Some of them are short, but that is not because I got lazy, but just cause I felt they are complete as they are. What I mean by sketches is that vast majority of them would require significant amount of time to re- mix them properly/ get rid of muddiness as knowledge and tools were not available at the time... And some of them will need musical enhancements such as instrument solos, etc... which I simply can not do well enough with instrument. I am sure that BIAB can solve at least some of these issues. Seems that for most part people like to move forward... I like to move forward as well. However, I think it is very important to know how and when to go back and re-learn how to ride a bicycle and find that "forgotten" joy all over again.
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<<< There are some bands that have 1 minute songs... I am sure somebody will say: Yeah, whatever, they are not "real" musicians, songs must be at least 3:30 minutes or such. To me, these bands, if they produce quality and diverse material are geniuses. In my opinion, if a very short song has a form and a story - is a song... even if it is 30 seconds long (yes, I have heard such songs too smile ) >>>
Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs have the shortest ever #1 song at only 1:36 in length released in 1960. #1 for a week but the song is still played on the radio and at every club in the Myrtle Beach area every day. It's been covered by the Four Seasons, Andrew Gold, The Hollies, Jackson Browne, Cyndi Lauper, Bruce Springsteen and The Dave Clarke Five among others. It was also featured in the movie, Dirty Dancing. Maurice Williams wrote it when he was 15 years old and the original version of the song has sold over 8 million copies. Not bad for a minute and half of work and I agree with you, obvious there was some genius involved.
BIAB 2026:RB 2026, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie
I think the most common comment for this song is:
I wish this song was "just a little bit longer."
LOL!
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I'm not sure I'd know how to answer this question. Certainly I don't have any burning desire to go back and "re-do" songs in terms of striving for a better mix. I've listened to some things I've done not just more than any other individual (that's probably true of everything I've done) but more than everybody else combined. It's hard to ignore such a huge chunk of my own audience. When I've done what I set out to do, then I'm finished. Whether or not the "song" is finished, I'll leave to others to decide. Since I'm not really a "musician", for the most part if I've delivered a lyric I'm satisfied with, then that's "the song" and most everything else is in support of that. Another version of "the song" is fine with me, as long as someone else wants to do it.
However, I've written exactly ONE actual song-lyric in the past 8 years or more. It may be that my best lyrics are behind me. I haven't even tried in so long, I just don't know. But for the first time in my life, I feel like I am becoming a musician of a sort. I'm drawn to simple musical expressions that fall under the very broad category of "production music". These don't require lyrics/vocals and really don't even require strong, coherent melody/leads. I dabbled in this years ago with BIAB, and am still doing that kind of thing now in projects I've started since 2018. Mix and production are bigger parts of what I'm looking for with these efforts, so "quality" matters more in them than in a song where voice and words take the center.
If, however, by "quality" you mean the quality of the song...then while I'm sure I can still write a truly crappy song: 1. When I recognize its complete crappiness, I have zero desire to finish it. 2. Should I screw up and finish it, if I have failed to remove ALL crappiness, nobody will ever hear it. I don't write a lyric just so a song will have one. Partial crappiness is another issue, but I'll know when sharing pretty much where that crappiness is already, and I'll have a different motivation for sharing it.
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I'm redoing a decade old song as we speak. it's not on SC or anywhere but it's one of my favs of mine and I'm adding RT's I didn't have then. These days I do whatever moves me. If it's a new song idea I want to finish while I'm in the zone, I do that. If it's a remix and new arrangement of an old song I get excited about then I do that. As long as it moves me and I'm doing something creative I'm not wasting time. Now if someone said you MUST choose only one, I'd write, arrange and record a rough demo - what you're calling a "sketch" and leave the real mixing/mastering to somebody else but I don't have the luxury of that choice. Thank God with RT's I don't have to play a thing.
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Tangmo, thanks! Surely an interesting take on things! Ok, the quality part is... When share my tunes with close friends, I ask of them to give me a honest opinion. In most cases they share a valid complaint...They are having difficulty understanding lyrics because they say: It sounds like you are in barrel.. Why? Now I know..FeQueNcY ClAShes...it only took me 20+ years to understand the correlation Another aspect what I consider a "quality" is adding parts / sounds / vocal elements that make tune more interesting, after initial "demo" is completed. Problem here is that no matter how great BIAB is, I prefer some human input on the specific tune, other than mine. Here is an example of that. I was working on the tune not long ago, and a talented singer helped me to diversify it, by doing some backing vocals. After she left, I thought that, song would be more interesting if she sang in a few other places in it. She does not record at home, so the only way for me is try to invite her over (30 mile drive each way) or to come to her if she has time for me.. only to put some vocal elements. That would take almost a day between prepping project, coming to her, explaining, recording, mixing, which I can use to start completely new tune which could be even better. I do understand the phrase "no pain-no gain" well enough, but a hunger for making new tunes drives me more. ( quality vs variety) Josie, Thank you for reply! Seems like you have a positive and balanced outlook on things. Especially this: "As long as it moves me and I'm doing something creative I'm not wasting time." This line alone, answers many questions I am sure one way or another, I will come back to at least a dozen of tunes that I wrote years ago and try to infuse them with power of RT or RD... My idea is, when time is not major issue to have a "spring cleanup" and just remix whole bunch of songs from years to make them sound better. Misha.
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All the pro writers I know write as much as they can, and find the quality inside of the quantity. If you look at the Beatles catalog they wrote hundreds of really bad songs, and they admitted it. But the ones that were good put them in the immortal Pantheon. I have never once written a good song by sitting down to write a good song. I just write continuously, and once in a blue moon I will hit it. You don't want to hear the worst crap I have written, trust me, and if you see an opportunity for a funny wisecrack here, restrain yourself!!!! ("Oh, we've heard them Dave...trust me." I know...I know.)
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<<< I just write continuously, and once in a blue moon I will hit it. You don't want to hear the worst crap I have written, trust me ... >>> "Elton John And Bernie Taupin. ... Carole King And Gerry Goffin. ... John Lennon And Paul McCartney. ... Benny Andersson And Bjorn Ulvaeus. ... Ashford & Simpson. ... Burt Bacharch And Hal David. ... Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. ... Jerry Leiber And Mike Stoller." Wonder how many times these guys said those words to each other. Remember, one man's trash can be another man's gold. Then there's Ringo's grammatically incorrect phrase; " A Hard Day's Night" that led to a Grammy and a #1 spot on the charts. I'll take your trash David... 
BIAB 2026:RB 2026, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Dave, thank you for sharing! I think people are misled a bit by the title of the topic it is not Quality over Quantity It is Quality over Variety Let me put it differently: a book with 10 short stories, or same volume book with single story... For me, I enjoy writing short pieces as it leaves me more time to write other things - a variety. And the second part of the topic in my view is this: Lets say I have 50 songs that are roughly 1:30 minutes each. Basic Intro, Chorus, Verse, Break, Chorus, Verse, Ending. Enough to get the feel of the song, story line etc. I know I can make them more... how to put it... a standard length song by adding longer complex intro, bridge, outro and ending. The problem is, I am not an instrumentalist and adding something dumb and un-interesting stuff, that I can play myself would make whole tune suck. So my idea is that one day, if I find talented accompanist, pick a dozen tunes and record some cool instrumental parts to make them more interesting ( quality ).
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 11/14/18 09:58 AM.
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I see. I have thousands of such sketches in a folder called "Cool Riffs" with short descriptions. I will often get an idea, sit down at the piano and record the hook or melody as soon as it hits my brain and then file it. I have thousands--but don't know what to do with them. Yet I keep notes and fragments of lyrics and titles associated with them. Also, I have hundreds of cool styles I found in BIAB where I came up with a V, CH Bridge idea, but no idea for a melody or title, or lyrics. Not yet anyway. But I file them in a folder called "Songs in Progress" (with 3 backup locations, can you tell I am OCD??)--hundreds of "varieties" in style as well. I can't tell you how many times I have woken up in the middle of the night and gone "Got it" and I run off to the studio because I remember that tune in the folder and I suddenly have the lyric or melody. So, yeah, I get it. I save EVERYTHING. No lyric scrap from the car written on the side of an envelope gets to stay a scrap for more than 24 hours before it gets typed up and properly filed.
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regarding David's comment.... the songs of mine thaty I think are the good ones, people don't often agree with me. It's the ones I think are just ok... or so so that people say wow!
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/14/18 10:51 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Dave, seems like you are quite an accumulator I do have a bag of unfinished / half finished stuff too... But what I am talking about is a bit different. I do have dozens of actual mini songs. Music structure+lyrics recorded. Most are 2 minutes or less... Some are total c#ap, some are not horrible at all. Again, my hope is that down in line, try to put more "life" into them... When I have resource of time and proper music companion / instrumentalist with open mind. I believe that I do have intention to go back to some of these mini-songs, but not sure if I would feel the same about them 10-15 years from now. I just hope, as Josie said: "As long as it moves me..." moment would not pass with time, and process would not feel as a commitment instead of creative process. Misha.
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Herb, David Bowie said the same thing.
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Misha, Seems entirely reasonable. I know a lot of people who do that. Like half the songwriters I know.
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Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
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