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I think all of these factors play a part, but what I would like to know is the following
Under equal tempreament, each note ilt ls a compromise, or at least most of them. They can vary by different percentages. I think this may well have an effect on the 'darkness' of a key too. I don't know any source that I could use to compare though, least not one I could understand
Z
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Hi Z, Yes, I get what you are talking about. I have dug into this subject a bit in the past. The complexity of the math and the physic of sound was enough to stop me from putting the effort to completely understand the precise relationships. I started to explain what I think I know, then thought better of it. This is a link to a pretty good explanation but be prepared to put on your math hat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperamentEven Better some stuff from UC Berkeley...you might know someone from California would get in the middle of all this...lol https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/eecs20/week8/scale.html What I wanted to do is find the exact frequency of all notes in a short piece of music in e major and transpose to a flat and compare the two to see if there was any difference in the frequency relationship of the intervals. If that makes any sense to anyone including me...lol The problem with all this conversation about sound is the vague examples we use to try to communicate. We would most like never agree on exactly what "happy" sounds like but we can more easily agree on what different intervals sound like. A new Samsung 1/2 TB USB SSB drive was just delivered by FedX so I need to go play with my new toy!! Damn! this thing is tiny. Cheers, Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used. That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part.
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used.
That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part. That my friends is what keys are all about. If the singer and/or lead instrument can not sing/play in the chosen key then the band will suck. In other words the key is determined by the lead singer/instrument.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used.
That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part. That my friends is what keys are all about. If the singer and/or lead instrument can not sing/play in the chosen key then the band will suck. In other words the key is determined by the lead singer/instrument. Amen
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Great discussion on this. I remember reading a fascinating article about "Equal temperament" and "Just Intonation". Noel really explained that nicely.
Years ago, when I played a lot of trumpet, I would write songs/arrangements in "standard" band keys. These keys would make playing easier on trumpets, bones, saxes, etc...
Now that I'm a vocalist/guitar player, I rarely think about what key I write in. Whatever key fits me and my wife's vocal range is what I shoot for. Even then, sometimes going up or down a half-step can make a big difference in how a song feels.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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After a good bit experimenting with my digital piano, I just can not find a really noticeable difference in playing in C or C# or ab and E. I also checked to see if I could tell any difference if I played in a key or used the transpose button. There was none that I could hear.
On an electronic keyboard whether or not something is in a flat key or sharp key does not seem to make any difference even with two very different vocals with different lyrical context. Point being, a dark angry vocal does not seem to change in a flat key or sharp key.
I don't know how this experiment would be with other instruments.
If I understand equal temperament correctly the ratio is the same for every note.
Psychoacoustics is the study of how humans hear sounds. I am not even sure I can spell that...lol...so I am sure I have very little knowledge of the science.
This idea of "brighter" or "melancholy" may very well be a hold over from the conditions that Noel talked about in his post. I don't think it is accurate in today's world of equal temperament. I also think we all tend to use words that are in essence meaningless to describe something. Meaningless because ask a hundred people to define what they mean and you get a hundred different answers.Go ask a 100 people what freedom means!!
I certainly agree with Rich that moving the key up or down on the guitar can make a noticeable difference. Some songs just sound better in certain keys to me.
Cheers,
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I only assume that Beethoven meant for String Quartet no. 14, 1st movement to be the very definitions of "melancholy" well...he wrote it in C# minor not Cb minor.
I rest my case...lol...lol
Cheers,
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You can thank Bill Monroe with his high lonesome tenor for the songs in B--5 sharps! Yikes.
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A,E,D with a capo on the second fret..........gives you five sharps with three chords and three fingers
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To the guy that said A# sounds like Bb well there is no key of A#. The only sharp key with a # in it's name is F#. Sorry.
How important the actual bass line is is also a factor in choosing the key.
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Well, there is also C#, but rather than play in seven sharps, most people would probably choose the five flats of Db.
[F# or Gb is a coin flip of either six sharps or six flats, respectively.]
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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A,E,D with a capo on the second fret..........gives you five sharps with three chords and three fingers
A little bit difficult on my grand piano ! 
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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OK Matt for my education. Circle of 5ths. C no sharps or flats,G,D,A,E,B,F#/Gb,.Isn't this really the end of the sharp keys? Then it's Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C
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Once again stage lingo for me. Calling out keys to a song.
Closed fist = C
1 finger up = G
2 up = D
etc.
1 down = F
2 down = Bb
etc.
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No, you could go one step further and some Circle of Fifths diagrams will continue one step to show 7 sharps (and seven flats). A few then venture into double sharps or double flats, but by then my eyes glaze over!
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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My circle of fifth chart hanging on the wall in front of me shows C# and Cb off to one side at the bottom...seven sharps or seven flats. I have seen double sharps and flats but only with really dark sun glasses on...lol
I use to play with an old blues piano player who played everything in C#. He was a nice guy and a friend of mine. I was playing guitar so it was no big deal for me.
When I ask Walter one day why he played everything in C# he said "Billy, I am a black man and I play on the black keys". I did not pursue the conversation any further as his answer made perfect sense to me!!
I guess there are some things that just don't come in the classical training manual...lol
Cheers,
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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To the guy that said A# sounds like Bb well there is no key of A#. The only sharp key with a # in it's name is F#. Sorry.
How important the actual bass line is is also a factor in choosing the key. Actually there is a key of A#: https://www.basicmusictheory.com/a-sharp-major-key-signatureBut give me Bb any time!
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Yes, I agree. I already knew that Eb is way up there.
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