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You can copyright your recording of a PD song, but you don't get to copyright the song itself (melody/lyrics) as your own. Now if you write a new melody to the original lyrics, you can claim copyright on the new melody, but not the lyrics. Likewise, if you write new lyrics to the original melody, you can claim the lyrics, but not the melody. But by definition, if they want, everyone can legally post their own rendition of a PD song (as long as it truly is PD - that's on the originator to research). I've posted PD on the forum, clearly indicated as such, and have received no pushback from PGMusic.
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If I register, i.e., copyright my version of a PD song I consider it original. As much as somebody who uses exactly the same complex chord progression of a song and calls it his or her own . Yep, I know progressions can’t be copyrighted. FWIW, With our PD songs we invariably change the chords and the lyric. I think PG Music has amply demonstrated liency regarding the use of PD material. OK that’s my story and I’m sticking with it!  It's a cover!  OK, we ain't talking about a legal contract here. If we were, heads would have rolled by now. This discussion is probably best understood as a "spirit of the law vs letter of the law" interpretation. When I hear the phrase "cover song" I immediately think of the obvious and most likely case of people using BIAB to record songs that are still under copyright. Obviously, PGMusic doesn't want that. I doubt that anybody at PGMusic sat around a table with squinty eyes saying "but what exactly does 'cover song' mean anyway? Would it include someone's personal interpretation of public domain music? " If that discussion had taken place, people would have gotten warnings by now. PGMusic is concerned about controlling the content only to the extent that they don't get letters from attorneys. The fact that nobody has been so much as WARNED (much less removed from the forum) is enough evidence to rule out the "letter of the law" interpretation.
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I remember when Aleck Rand (aka Dean Clark) started posting his version of jazz covers. He provided his license number, but this same discussion blew hot and heavy over the forum for weeks. People were asking PGMusic to step in with an official ruling.
First of all, PGMusic has no incentive to do that, because lawyers are really good at twisting words to make the innocent sound guilty. That's why forum rules are generally written such that the letter of the law would allow the most narrow degree of freedom.
But getting back to Dean Clark...
Peter Gannon rarely comments on showcase songs. Wise man. But its worth noting that in the middle of the forum discussion in which Aleck/Dean was being challenged, Dr. Gannon commented favorably on one of Dean's songs. No reprimand, yet also no official weigh-in on the matter.
No laws were broken. No harm, no foul.
I personally don't expect to see a "letter of the law" response to forum rules until somebody does something that is prosecutable, and some attorney starts to give PGMusic a bunch of grief.
disclaimer:
this is just my opinion. I am not affiliated with PGMusic in any way except as a customer. I have no insider knowledge of their intent. I'm just pointing out that nobody has been reprimanded yet after several years of what some would say constitutes rule breaking.
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I guess I was lucky as Peter kindly commented on one of mine fairly recently
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eddie1261
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I personally don't expect to see a "letter of the law" response to forum rules until somebody does something that is prosecutable, and some attorney starts to give PGMusic a bunch of grief. In the strictest definition, every cover posted is prosecutable. Now, WOULD anybody do that, I doubt it because these covers are not presented for sale, thus no revenue is generated that the original composer would be due a cut. However, my initial post was essentially this. If you have a rule, enforce it. If you aren't going to enforce it, remove it. Seems that everybody wants to post their favorite country oldie that they used to perform 30 years ago "down to the VF Dubya." The past is done. I also don't watch old movies of me playing baseball in high school 50 years ago. I was very good. Then. I was also 17. Then. I am not 17 anymore. "Glory days, how they pass you by, glory days"..... Just start another forum specifically saying "Post covers here" rather than the vague "Look what I found on Youtube" or whatever they call it. I don't know the name of the forum because I have never gone into it, largely due to my dislike and disdain for cover tunes. There may also be some international issue, as an extremely high percentage of the works being covered are covered under Copyright in the USA, and they are in Canada. You ever seen those ads on TV for those services that send you food and step by step directions and you then "cook" the meal? I put on Facebook that I consider that to be the "copy band of cooking". You aren't cooking anything. You are being the hands for someone else cooking it. I take the same view about playing someone else's music. Just like writing music that sucks and I throw it away, I have cooked some HORRIBLE meals because I don't use recipes. I make up my own. On the other hand, I have come up with about 4 dozen of my own recipes that are amazing. I wish I could say that about my writing.
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eddie1261
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He provided his license number. What does that mean? He has a license to copy songs? Educate me here please, as I know nothing about that. I never knew such a thing existed.
Last edited by eddie1261; 02/27/19 08:42 AM.
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I would think it would be obvious that if you have gone through the proper legal channels, and have paid the license fee for a copyrighted song, you have "ALL" the rights accorded by that license. Since Harry Fox licenses music for internet release as well as the traditional hard copy, it should be understood that anyone who has paid the fee requested by the HFA for the usage requested under the license, they have the full right, legally, to post that song online, and that should include in these forums. Licensing doesn't mean you own the song.... but it accords you all the rights in the license agreement to make commercial use of the song and to keep any profit made from that use.
Arguing over the minutia doesn't solve the issue. If you think doing a cover is beneath your musical standards.... don't do covers. If you do covers and have the license to legally put it into the public arena, post it. And yeah... probably a good idea around here or in any forum site actually, to post your HFA license number.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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He provided his license number. What does that mean? He has a license to copy songs? Educate me here please, as I know nothing about that. I never knew such a thing existed. See Herb's post. Harry Fox agency sells all kinds of licenses for specific use of somebody else's protected property. One license lets you put your version of their song on your CD (which is how so many famous people have covered the same songs through the years) another license lets you use their sheet music another license lets you put their song in a movie another license lets you use their song(s) in a public performance another license lets you use their song (or your version of it) online etc etc etc. I probably have the details wrong, but that's the gist of it. Cost of the license varies according to how many people are likely to see/hear your use of it. All of these license are for one specific use, Just because you pay for one license doesn't mean you can use the music in one of the other ways.
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You guys crack me up! Lots of weasel wording around to try and justify what you wanna do! Yet it could not be stated more clearly than the first 5 words in the first rule, "The songs must be originals"! Doesn't matter if a hairy fox or a hairless bear granted you a license to cover a song, it is still NOT an original!
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You guys crack me up! Lots of weasel wording around to try and justify what you wanna do! Yet it could not be stated more clearly than the first 5 words in the first rule, "The songs must be originals"! Doesn't matter if a hairy fox or a hairless bear granted you a license to cover a song, it is still NOT an original! Please let me reiterate that my comments have all related to the discussion around the Public Domain. I do not think that any type of license of another artist's published work gives one "all rights" to it -- in any shape, fashion or form. But at the risk of cracking you up I'll say again that I think an original interpretation of a Public Domain song meets the spirit of PG Music's rules — even given the statement you quoted. And I have ZERO issues with folks posting ANY song they wish too. Just offered a few opinions on the PD and my personal thoughts on licensing. PG Music is the arbiter...not us. Whew... Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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eddie1261
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Wow. "The spirit of" a printed, stated rule.
As J3 says, "All songs must be originals". It doesn't say "Public Domain covers are okay if you got a license from an organization who is in business to take your money. ." It says originals.
I wonder how many laws are on the books that law enforcement would wink at "in the spirit of the thing"?
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eddie1261
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If I register, i.e., copyright my version of a PD song I consider it original. I consider myself to be handsome, 6'4" and 210 pounds. That is far from the truth. I am a short, fat ugly little fireplug no matter what I "consider". The forum rule posted doesn't really say "If YOU consider it to be original, than it is so," does it? My recurring theme here is unwavering. If they have the rule in place, they should enforce it. If they don't intend to enforce it, they should just remove the rule. If that sentence wasn't the first thing in the user showcase, I wouldn't have had anything to say.
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I’m old but hopefully capable of understanding the rule. What I tried to suggest (apparently unsuccessfully ) is that they are seemingly offering some leeway. Sorta like law enforcement does when one is breaking the 55 mph rule (law) by a few mph. Heck if they inforced all the rules rigidly many posts would be removed from off topics as they (not this one) are not music related. Sorry to subject all to more old phart ramblings. I shall mercifully retire from the topic. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Good idea, moving it to off-topic. As for me and "my" hymns, I haven't been persuaded that PD songs have no place in a BaiB Users Forum. At least, not from the comments so far. Some were concerned, I know, the forum category could go toxic if left to its own devices. On the other hand, enough comments have me feeling some members enjoy hearing the work. (One less thing for someone else to do, maybe.) I've decided to just go ahead and keep posting PD Hymns with BB backing, once a little time opens up. This, fully recognizing the unique quality of the Forum as it had developed. Nothing else quite like it.
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eddie1261
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"All songs must be original" isn't even the slightest bit of "persuasion"?
As far as some members enjoying the work, that leave the inverse as an unstated obvious point, that some members maybe DON'T enjoy hearing the work.
Can't you write a hymn of your own? Geeze I wrote one for a local clergyman 4 years ago in the vain of Paul Baloche and I don't even believe in god.
Remember, people. This is a stated PG policy. This is not something I made up because I want to wear a black hat. I'll post 100 copy songs next month JUST to make my point if need be. I can crank out 4 a day with Real Band when I don't have to write them.
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Does anyone here honestly believe that if members posting their original versions of public domain songs were a problem that Peter and his legal team wouldn't have put a stop to it by 2019?
I can't believe how ridiculous this thread has gone. A discussion supposedly concerned about covering copyrighted songs has devolved into this. It might be amusing if it wasn't so downright sad.
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Can't you write a hymn of your own? Geeze I wrote one for a local clergyman 4 years ago in the vain of Paul Baloche and I don't even believe in god.
Eddie this is a totally unprovoked nasty comment. I mentioned earlier that some people CAN'T compose their own material try and remember that before posting comments like this
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Good idea, moving it to off-topic. As for me and "my" hymns, I haven't been persuaded that PD songs have no place in a BaiB Users Forum. At least, not from the comments so far. Some were concerned, I know, the forum category could go toxic if left to its own devices. On the other hand, enough comments have me feeling some members enjoy hearing the work. (One less thing for someone else to do, maybe.) I've decided to just go ahead and keep posting PD Hymns with BB backing, once a little time opens up. This, fully recognizing the unique quality of the Forum as it had developed. Nothing else quite like it. I for one enjoy listening to your work Ed although I don't always comment
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"The songs must be originals"
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eddie1261
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I mentioned earlier that some people CAN'T compose their own material try and remember that before posting comments like this
CAN'T? When did that word enter your vocabulary? People can do anything if they have the right amount of determination.
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Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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