Just thought I'd throw this out for something to think about. An aspect that some developing songwriters may not have thought much about before...
A number of comments in my most recent song in the Showcase (Where Do You Start), have been about the "beat" of the vocal - as Tangmo referred to it - which I think is a good way to think of it. Others mention the vocal "phrasing"...
I often refer to it as Vocal Cadence or Vocal Rhythm. The vocal - or the voice, itself, actually - becomes part of "what makes a song work"... a main instrument in the sound of the song....
...which is an important aspect of Songwriting. Much of Pop music is more about this aspect of a song than any other part. Rock, too (Folk is seldom about this. Singer-songwriter, depends on the singer/songwriter).
Typically those who are best at it are, in fact, also singers and/or musician. It is a rare (talented) "lyricist only" who can get that across (in a lyric alone).
There are many good examples in Pop radio. Here is one of the all-time best... Pay attention how the "singing of the words" falls on your ear. When done right, little else is needed...
What a primo example. It's not about "quantizing", is it? In this song (as well as yours) there is syncopation, and singing "against" (as opposed to completely along with) the pulses in the piano rhythm. The earlier in the songwriting process you can get that "feel", the better--no matter how you tend to write. In Floyd's song, the rhythmic groove (especially at his tempo) was wide, and he "surfed" it just as she did here...but he never went over the edge, and I've not heard him do it yet. Carole King didn't sing every parallel phrase exactly the same way...and I've heard other performances that were "phrased" differently. But no matter how she chose at the moment or in rehearsal to do it, it's right and "feels" right. And it's right because she wrote it that way.
My go-to example is James Taylor's "Mexico".
Another good "method" to get this into your soul is to listen to the bass, if it's an active bass-line. Latin, Funk, whatever if it is much more than thump-thump-thump. WHERE (when) the bass licks hit, how hard, and how long they hold is maybe even more important than what notes are hit. Same with a vocal in most popular music. As long as it remains musical, the rhythm of the vocal supersedes the melody even if it doesn't replace it.
When melody, words (and their melodic delivery), and the rhythm of the vocal all work together...that's a good song--even with just a piano or guitar accompaniment. I'd agree with Floyd...the most important of those elements is the rhythm of the vocal.
Interesting thoughts and a great example! I think Diana Krall also does it well with the songs she writes.
Bud
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A GREAT example of "Vocal Rhythm" in writing!!! It makes this SOAR!
Never knew my old man's truck could even run like that Should've known better than to take that curve so fast Daddy pulled up, I was down in a ditch He asked me why I did what I did
There was this girl, drink in her hand Shootin' me a "let's get into trouble" grin I ain't never seen somethin' so fine And I was doin' anything to make her mine I was out of my mind, she was out of this world There was this girl
Some folks ask me why I still pick this guitar They say livin' that life on the road won't get you very far I say man you should've been down in Tupelo Seen what was in the front row
There was this girl, beer in her hand Shootin' me a "play a little Skynyrd" grin She's turnin' it up, she's turnin' me on And I'd play her anything she'd sing along I was out of my mind, she was out of this world There was this girl Yeah there was this girl
Didn't know a diamond ring could cost so much (damn) Took six months on a farm 'fore I saved up All my drinkin' buddies still out on the town Wonderin' why I ever settled down
But there was this girl, holdin' my hand Shootin' me a "start a life together" grin She's pullin' me in, she's straightenin' me out And now I know what love is all about I'm still out of my mind, she's still out of this world There was this girl Yeah, there was this girl Yeah, there was this girl There was this girl
This is NOT about how great singers sing (and phrase a song). That's a different discussion.
It's about how a song is WRITTEN using what will be "vocal rhythm" to get a lyric across.
Exactly. How does a person write even a second line (much less a second verse) if he/she doesn't know how it's going to be sung--the rhythm of the words. And it may include syllable count, but it's not limited to that. Inflection, strong and weak accents. How much time does it take to deliver that line or phrase or word--more-or-less a beat. a bar, two bars, three and a half bars? As many other considerations as can be brought to bear. And most importantly, WHY? What is about the lyric as a whole and a phrase or line in particular that merits/begs for/requires these considerations?
Take "bubble". Why does BUUUUbble sound natural in a song, but BubbLLLLe sound wonky and awkward? Neither is the way anybody says it. Those choices are worked out in the write. That's an extreme example, but I guarantee you someone has written a song and sang "bubbLLLLe" to try to match a melody. I see that lazy so-and-so in the mirror every day.
Tempo and key can be changed. Melody is malleable and is itself influenced by the rhythm of the words. The "band" can take a groove in many different directions. But the rhythm of the words in a song is what the song "is" at it's core.
I contend that if a writer doesn't make those choices in the course of writing (is unable mentally or physically to "sing" those words), then he/she hasn't written a song at all. It's a poem and wannabe song-lyric. If he/she can but his/her choices have simply been sub-par, then at least it qualifies as a song.
2. Kings of Leon: The End: https://youtu.be/4B-t-WDRuXQ (it's really interesting to listen to the progression of this band from noise-makers to some of my favorite songwriters with great bass lines in many of their songs. This one is pretty simple, but the prosody in the verses is great.
3. Arctic Monkeys: Do I Wanna Know: https://youtu.be/bpOSxM0rNPM Warning-suggestive imagery in the video. The verses in this one have a great loping feel, particularly with the 'false endings' in some of the phrases, where the sentence could end, but there's another vocal lyrical hook coming in that line. These guys don't win any awards for thought provoking lyrics - but this particular song and album have lots of examples of great melody/prosody/riff connectivity.
4. Death Cab for Cutie: Last couple of albums have had great 'The Smiths' and other guitar bands from the 80's UK New Wave sound - this recent single is a great one: Northern Lights - https://youtu.be/gBdh20C287Y
5. Arcade Fire: Suburban War https://youtu.be/cNdqoQWz34E Love the prosody in this one in several sections, this is like a mini-symphony in three movements. Singer isn't necessarily that great but just listen to the lilt of the lyrics.
This is a great video, and an awesome topic for discussion. I've always cherish vocal cadence (or vocal rhythm to the vocals) in music I love most. I know it isn't a particularly popular genre in the forums, but it's why I love hip hop and rap music. Rhythm in music in particular can make or break a song for me.
Interpol is one band I love that does this particularly well.
I worked on a number of songs with a co writer who insisted that the syllable count in the verses match exactly. Even now when I write my own stuff and work with other writers, that sticks in the back of my mind. I don't always follow that rule but mostly I try to.
The topic of this thread goes beyond plain old syllable count into the rhythm imparted to the lyrics by the choice of words and how they are sung. The connection to what I said I think goes into... what you do in verse one.... you gotta do in the other verses too for it to really work well.
Good topic.
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Thanks for sharing the Charlie Pluth video, Floyd. Haven't heard of that guy, but it's a unique example. Great pop tune that certainly will move butts! Even if it sounds programmed to an extent. Love the pre-chorus and the chorus slow down of syllables while using the rhythm of the verses. Dang it's catchy.
BTW, My ears were about 6 or 7 years old when the Carole King song came out and seemed to be in constant rotation on the stations my parents listened to. Because of Carole's bell-like vocal tone, the repeated bah-dah-domp domp, dada dah piano riff, etc. I thought it was a sunny and happy song. Wasn't until years later that I realized the gravity of the words.
Thanks for sharing the Charlie Pluth video, Floyd. Haven't heard of that guy, but it's a unique example. Great pop tune that certainly will move butts! Even if it sounds programmed to an extent. Love the pre-chorus and the chorus slow down of syllables while using the rhythm of the verses. Dang it's catchy.
Scott - the whole album (Voicenotes) is like that. INFECTIOUS. Very much worth many listens.
For those interested, the free songwriting class that Pat Pattison teaches at Berklee goes into great detail about prosody as it relates to syllable choice and placement in the rhythmic structure. Thanks again to Noel96 for turning me on to that class 7 or 8 years ago.
You know, Floyd, listening again to this song - I could totally imagine Michael Jackson doing this song. The guitar riffs, the booty shaking bass line with just the right number of notes, etc. Did Quincy Jones produce this guy?
You know, Floyd, listening again to this song - I could totally imagine Michael Jackson doing this song. The guitar riffs, the booty shaking bass line with just the right number of notes, etc. Did Quincy Jones produce this guy?
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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