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Well, I just did another test and got some more strange results. In the intro to my newest song, I entered a series of A chords to see what BiaB would do with them during its importation of the XML file. The chords I entered are as follows:
G, Am, A2, Asus, Asus2, Aadd2, and G
However, when I opened the XML file of this song, the following chords showed up in BiaB:
G, Am, Aadd2, Asus, A2, A, and G.
What this means is that BiaB is making the following chord substitutions:
A2 --> Aadd2
Asus2 --> A2
Aadd2 -- > A
The only two chords that came through without being substituted with other chords are the Am and the Asus.
Next, I added a few more chords to the intro so that the progression was as follows:
G, Am, A2, Aadd2, Asus, Asus2, Asus4, A9, Aadd9, and G
However, when I opened the XML file of this song, the following chords showed up in BiaB:
G, Am, Aadd2, Aadd2, Asus, A2, Asus, A9, Aadd2, and G.
This time, BiaB did not substitute an A chord for the Aadd2 chord but kept the Aadd2 chord intact. The chords it did substitute are as follows:
A2 --> Aadd2
Asus2 --> A2
Asus4 --> Asus
Aadd9 --> Aadd2
BiaB's practice of substituting an A2 chord for an Asus2 chord and of substituting an Aadd2 chord for an A2 chord is very confusing and corresponds to what was said in the following paragraph from the article at the first link in my OP:
"What about the C2 chord?
Finally, we come to the C2 chord. This is the odd one out, all the others follow patterns and rules that we can understand. But, not so with C2. This is the cause of so much confusion.
Usually, C2 is used to indicate a C major with a D added. Yep, you guessed it, it has exactly the same notes as the Cadd9, or the Cadd2. I say “usually”, because I have equally seen it used in place of a Csus2.
So, even though Cadd2 and Cadd9 contain the same notes, C2 and C9 never have the same notes, and that’s just confusing.
Personally, I avoid C2 as a chord name. It just doesn’t fit with the “rules”. I prefer to stick [with] the sus and add systems."
But there's more. BiaB's treatment of an Asus4 as merely an Asus chord creates even more confusion because there's more than one Asus chord, as stated in the following quote of a post on the ibreathemusic.com forum (see the link in my previous post) by a guy named Eric:
"There are two types of "sus", sus2 and sus4. When you say "Csus", which one do you mean ? Csus2 ( C-D-G ) or Csus4 ( CFG )
I didn´t say that the 7th or 9th are suspended, and I have written about sus-chords before, so I am kinda familiar with them and know it´s the third that´s suspended. I was referring to "As you guys say it, there is no difference between Aadd9 and A2"
Aadd9 has A-C#-E-B. The 2 is referred to as the 9.
So what is A2 ? The 2 would imply there´s no third in there, otherwise it would have to be called a 9. Yet, the name doesn´t mention a sus. So it should be Aadd9 ( which I guess is referred to by some people as "A2", which is confusing and technically, incorrect IMO ), according to the 2 being referred to as a 9 as long as the third is in the chord.
I didn´t make those rules, yet I do believe that it would be easier if more people would stick to them.
.
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Sus means "suspended 3rd", leaving out the third. However, you need to define whether a 2 or 4 is added instead of the third. Otherwise, you get something that technically is a diad or doublestop, not exactly a chord."
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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Whether BIAB shows the chord as A2 or Asus2 depends on the selection of choices in Display Options. I've highlighted these on the graphic below.
At the end of the day, though, whatever is displayed (i.e. Asus2 Aadd2), the chord is an A2 -- as shown in the list of substitutions that Matt posted.
Regards,
Noel Actually, this isn't true. While I'm able to change the display of an A2 to an Asus2 and of an Asus to an Asus4 (per your suggestion to right click on the Chord sheet and select "Display Options"), this would only eliminate part of the confusion that's occurring with these chord names and BiaB's chord mapping algorithm. What's still left is the Aadd2 chord, which is not the same as an A2 chord because BiaB considers an A2 chord to be the same as an Asus2 chord (excluding A2 chords that are in an XML file, of course). That's the basis for the ability to change the display option from an A2 to an Asus2. However, an Aadd2 chord sounds very different from an A2 (or Asus2) chord because it contains an additional note (the C# note that is part of the standard A chord). So, I don't have a problem with BiaB mapping an Asus2 chord from an XML file to an A2 chord or even an Asus4 chord from that same file to an Asus chord because I can use the Display Options to revert back to the original chord names. What I do have a problem with is BiaB's mapping of an A2 chord from that file to an Aadd2 chord because it just doesn't follow the rules and causes confusion. All I can do at this point to prevent this from happening is to not use an A2 chord name at all in MuseScore but instead to use an Asus2 chord name. I also need to avoid the Asus chord name and use the Asus4 chord name instead in MuseScore. The same would be true for all other versions of these same chords (C, D, E, etc.).
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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I guess I spoke too soon because I just encountered another problem that occurred after I changed the Display Options settings so that a 2 chord displays as a sus2 chord and so that a sus chord displays as a sus4 chord. When I opened my second test song file to see how BiaB would map the additional A chords that I had inserted into the Intro, all of the sus chords (Asus, Asus2, Asus4) in my XML file were mapped to A chords in BiaB. Previously, the Asus and Asus4 chords were mapped to an Asus chord, and the Asus2 chord was mapped to an A2 chord. So, it appears that there are several bugs in the chord mapping portion of BiaB's XML file import algorithm that need to be fixed.
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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Whether BIAB shows the chord as A2 or Asus2 depends on the selection of choices in Display Options. I've highlighted these on the graphic below. I just checked RB to see if it has this same feature but couldn't find it anywhere, so I'm assuming that RB doesn't have this feature. If it doesn't, then I would be reluctant to use the Display Options featured in BiaB because of the potential confusion that would occur when using both programs on the same song. Also, if I don't use the Display Options feature in BiaB, then it won't make sense for me to only use the sus2 and sus4 chords in MuseScore because RB will map those to the 2 and sus chords respectively. In fact, RB won't even allow me to enter the sus2 and sus4 chords because it automatically replaces them with an A2 and an Asus chord. This is not a good situation.
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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snip ... So, it appears that there are several bugs in the chord mapping portion of BiaB's XML file import algorithm that need to be fixed. muzikluver, It's great to read your observations. I believe you can tell many forum members are enjoying participating in this thread. May I suggest you contact PG Music Support about the XML file import algorithm errors? If you attach your XML file along with a bar and beat description of the chords that are misinterpreted then they will have the content needed to correct the issue. On another note directed at all thread participants for their thoughts, from the conversations above it appears there are three branches of western music theory: classical, jazz and popular. Each branch seems to have a slightly different definition of how an add, sustain or 2 chord is composed. I may be wrong but since song structure is jazz based I'm guessing in the program chord names also follow jazz music theory convention.
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snip ... So, it appears that there are several bugs in the chord mapping portion of BiaB's XML file import algorithm that need to be fixed. muzikluver, It's great to read your observations. I believe you can tell many forum members are enjoying participating in this thread. May I suggest you contact PG Music Support about the XML file import algorithm errors? If you attach your XML file along with a bar and beat description of the chords that are misinterpreted then they will have the content needed to correct the issue. On another note directed at all thread participants for their thoughts, from the conversations above it appears there are three branches of western music theory: classical, jazz and popular. Each branch seems to have a slightly different definition of how an add, sustain or 2 chord is composed. I may be wrong but since song structure is jazz based I'm guessing in the program chord names also follow jazz music theory convention. Thanks for mentioning the three branches of western music theory, Jim. I wasn't aware of that, but I was thinking that BiaB probably follows jazz music theory convention. Also, I will take you up on your suggestion for me to contact PG Music Support about the XML file import algorithm errors because that appears to be the proper step for me to take next with these issues. However, I would like to know if RB has the same Display Options feature that BiaB has (as Noel mentioned in a previous post).
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V
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I have never used xml, how exactly does that work in Biab? Have you already created a new song including the style then import the xml file or does the importing itself create a new song project and then you select the style? The reason for this question is my point earlier that styles many times determine how the chords are handled. Also, in my earlier reply I touched on the differences between the chords in a midi style vs an RT or hybrid style. Musickluver, are you talking midi styles or RT styles here?
Fundamentally if you want exact chord voicings then you need to write midi notation for that, it won't do anything for RT's because you get whatever voicing that was recorded in the studio so that's midi only. When you talk about your Add 2 chord, for every note in it you can have a different inversion (voicing) and if you add a slash bass note then you could have 5 or 6 appropriate voicings.
When you get into the weeds of specific chord names and voicings you really need to understand the theory behind that. Basically you think outside the box, think about what am I trying to do harmonically and find a way to get Biab to do it because as I said earlier as an AI music software, it tends to want to do things it's way. This is the whole rationale behind the program and it's name Band-in-a-Box. You get to have a virtual band of great musicians, give them the song structure and "basic chords" and they can come up with several different versions of your song for you. It's not designed to perfectly execute what you tell it to do.
Bob
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Let me try to jump on this roller coaster ride. First, I don't enter chords from xml, so perhaps I am not really getting the point here. But assuming we are talking about midi play of the chord chart, BIAB will interpret what chords you enter and play something different each time you hit play. That is the way the program works - auto accompaniment generation not midi playback. So you really don't have any easy control over voicing of a chord or whether or not BIAB plays a third against your A2 or Asus2 or A9. In addition to that, BIAB is not a notation program where the chord chart is explicit to the playback. The chords drive the accompaniment engine. This is all. So I think you guys are over analyzing this whole thing. But that may just be me. So carry on. Edit: Apparently Bob was typing as I was. I think we said the same thing, although he may have said it better.  Dan
Last edited by MusicStudent; 07/14/19 10:37 AM.
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If you are spelling those notes from the bottom (root) to top, then I think you're describing an Aadd9. The B is an octave and a step above the A. But I'm not a guitarist...
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...
On another note directed at all thread participants for their thoughts, from the conversations above it appears there are three branches of western music theory: classical, jazz and popular. Each branch seems to have a slightly different definition of how an add, sustain or 2 chord is composed. I may be wrong but since song structure is jazz based I'm guessing in the program chord names also follow jazz music theory convention. That's an interesting suggestion, Jim. From BIAB's origin, which we know was to be able to jam on jazz fakebook tunes, the answer would be jazz. But I would be interested in learning more about any difference in jazz and classical theory in regards to chord naming. It's just that jazz often uses a lot of upper extensions, but I am not aware of anything that clashes with classical theory.
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I agree, the only disagreements tend to be how to describe certain chords in fakebook charts. Spelling out a Cm7b9 vs calling it a half diminished showing a C with the little circle with a line through it is one. There are many others like spelling out a Cmaj7 vs a C with the little triangle.
The other common discussion is what's the definition of a chorus vs a verse. Biab calls a chorus the whole song which is the classical way while common use rock, blues, country, pop doesn't do that, it's called verse, bridge, solo. I never heard band members refer to the whole song as a chorus. Jazz usually refers to Sections like AABA with a tag or whatever.
Biab did address that some years ago with the Song Section function where you can enter on a grid Sections A, B, C, D, etc and rearrange the playback that way.
And Dan, yes we said basically the same thing but you said it briefer. Good job.
Bob
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I have never used xml, how exactly does that work in Biab? Have you already created a new song including the style then import the xml file or does the importing itself create a new song project and then you select the style? The reason for this question is my point earlier that styles many times determine how the chords are handled. Also, in my earlier reply I touched on the differences between the chords in a midi style vs an RT or hybrid style. Musickluver, are you talking midi styles or RT styles here? My standard process is to enter the notes of my song first into MuseScore. Then I figure out all the chords and enter them into MuseScore. After that, I export an XML file that contains all the notes and the chords so that I can test the sound of the chord progression with the melody in BiaB. Normally, I try to select an appropriate style first, but sometimes I forget and just use what's already left in BiaB from a previous song. There have been a few times that I didn't have BiaB open already, so I end up starting with the default that shows up when I open the program, which will be the style that I had used with the last song I had worked on. This can be problematic, however, when the song I want to open has a 4/4 time signature and the current or previously used style is a 3/4 time signature or vice versa. (This has also happened a few times when BiaB was already open but had a style with the wrong time signature already selected.) When this happens, and I don't catch it, BiaB will replace the current style with the default jazz style with a 4/4 time signature. (I don't think BiaB does this if a 4/4 style is already selected and I open a song that has a 3/4 time signature because of its ability to drop the fourth beat in each measure.) That's what happened when I opened my most recent test song file. But I didn't notice this until after I read your post. So, I thought that this may have been why the three sus chords were replaced with standard A chords and decided to re-open my first test song file with a pre-selected style that has the proper time signature (4/4). To keep things simple, I selected the _CMPFMDS.STY style, which is a medium strumming folk acoustic guitar style. While this style has the potential for five tracks. four of those tracks are midi tracks, and the fifth is a RT acoustic guitar (~405). So, when I re-opened my first test song file with this style already selected, all of my Asus chords (I had one Asus chord and one Asus2 chord in the intro, and I had one Asus2 chord in the middle of the first verse) and Add2 chords (I also had one Aadd2 chord in the intro) were replaced with standard A chords, which is very similar to what had happened with my previous test song file when BiaB switched to the default jazz style when I opened the XML file because of the time signature mismatch. This is the first time I've ever seen this happen because I never used the Asus, Asus2, or Aadd2 chords in my songs before. In fact, this didn't even happen the first time I had opened the same test song file, which I had reported in one of my previous posts. Instead, these three chords in my intro were mapped to an Asus, A2, and A chord respectively. IOW, only the Aadd2 chord was mapped to a standard A chord previously. But the fact that BiaB did very similar chord mapping this time with two different styles (one a complex jazz style and the other a simple folk style) suggests to me that there actually may be a problem with the chord mapping algorithm that doesn't pertain to the "voicings" that you mentioned in your next two paragraphs, which is another perspective that I was not aware of, so I'll respond to that next. Fundamentally if you want exact chord voicings then you need to write midi notation for that, it won't do anything for RT's because you get whatever voicing that was recorded in the studio so that's midi only. When you talk about your Add 2 chord, for every note in it you can have a different inversion (voicing) and if you add a slash bass note then you could have 5 or 6 appropriate voicings.
When you get into the weeds of specific chord names and voicings you really need to understand the theory behind that. Basically you think outside the box, think about what am I trying to do harmonically and find a way to get Biab to do it because as I said earlier as an AI music software, it tends to want to do things it's way. This is the whole rationale behind the program and it's name Band-in-a-Box. You get to have a virtual band of great musicians, give them the song structure and "basic chords" and they can come up with several different versions of your song for you. It's not designed to perfectly execute what you tell it to do.
Bob I'm not sure what you mean by your suggestion for me to "write midi notation" if I "want exact chord voicings," but if you're referring to the notes in my XML file, they always come through into BiaB as a midi track. So, I don't understand why BiaB would map an Asus chord to an A chord when the note in the middle of my song's first verse that is associated with that chord is a B note, which is the note that is used to replace the C# note in the A chord to create the Asus chord. (I'm referring here, of course, to the Asus2 chord and not the Asus4 chord.) Now, my intro doesn't have any notes in it, so I also don't understand why BiaB would map a series of three modified A chords (Asus, Asus2, and Aadd2) to standard A chords, especially when these three chords were preceded by an A2 chord, which automatically gets mapped to an Aadd2 chord. I know there are lots of songs that have an alternating series of standard D and modified D chords (D2, D6, D7, D9, etc.) occurring at certain places in their overall chord progression, so I don't see why the same thing can't be done with standard A and modified A chords (as in my test song file), and I don't understand why BiaB would map all three of the modified A chords in this short series to standard A chords. Though I could be wrong about this because of my limited experience with BiaB, your "voicings" explanation doesn't seem to fit the picture very well in this particular case.
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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Let me try to jump on this roller coaster ride.
First, I don't enter chords from xml, so perhaps I am not really getting the point here. But assuming we are talking about midi play of the chord chart, BIAB will interpret what chords you enter and play something different each time you hit play. That is the way the program works - auto accompaniment generation not midi playback. So you really don't have any easy control over voicing of a chord or whether or not BIAB plays a third against your A2 or Asus2 or A9. In addition to that, BIAB is not a notation program where the chord chart is explicit to the playback. The chords drive the accompaniment engine. This is all. So I think you guys are over analyzing this whole thing. But that may just be me. So carry on. I know what you're referring to, Dan, because I've heard enough of BiaB's slight deviations from the chords in the Chord sheet window in the arrangements that I've used it to generate. While some of these deviations have been acceptable to me, others have not been acceptable, so I simply generated another arrangement until BiaB produced one that didn't have any unacceptable deviations. The issue I'm addressing in this thread, however, pertains to the actual chord names that show up in the chord sheet window BEFORE I click on the Generate button to create an arrangement. If those chords are not the same as the chords in my XML file, then I know I'm going to have issues with the arrangement. For example, putting a standard A chord over a note that isn't in a standard A chord (a B note) is just not acceptable, just as putting a D chord over a C note isn't acceptable either.
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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Bob, did you ever hear the expression “take a(nother) chorus”? It means solo (or continue to solo) over the form of the whole song.
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Gotta say, I've been really enjoying this thread. It reminds me of a very spirited discussion on Talkbass I participated in some years ago with the blasphemous title/thesis "The Myth of Modes" (which I attacked with quite a bit of vigor). At some point I brought up sus chords and was challenged by a prominent jazz musician regarding my interpretation. Managed to dig it up. The sus chord discussion begins on page 15 if anyone is interested... https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-myth-of-modes.1199799/page-15
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And I think Bob may have meant to write Cm7b5 as a half-diminished chord. Not Cm7b9. Unless I’m missing something.
Unfortunately we now have several interesting parallel threads going here, making it hard to follow. Chord theory, Music XML to BIAB, BIAB’s unique way of playing a chord, etc. Each deserves a separate discussion. And the Music XML import has another thread in which I showed how (right or wrong) BIAB handles several chords as a 2 chord. I believe that Jim’s suggestion to contact PG Music Support with specifics about the initial problem, importing chords with Music XML into BIAB, is a good one. Let’s clear up if something is not right about that before continuing down this road.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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b5 is correct, DUH.
I think we've narrowed this thread down to two different points.
!. The XML import. There's been a lot written about how different programs handle that and none of them are perfect but get close. Support is a good idea, they may be able to clean that up.
2. Biab styles changing chords. This is standard Biab practice, it's built in and is the reason for it's existence. There have been several enhancements to get it closer to playing exactly what a user enters but none are perfect because that's not what the program is designed to do. Simple Chords will stop the program from adding extensions for example like changing a D7 to a D#9 or something but it has nothing to do with you wanting an exact version of that A2 chord.
To answer the question about different chord voicings and why you may want to use midi notation to make those exact. Right now you're talking about pretty simple chords and it may not matter to you if an A2 chord is voiced on a guitar with say A on the top string and the other notes below it. I'm sure though if you are a good guitarist you already know you can play that chord in 3 or 4 other positions on the neck and each one has a different sound to it.
If you're picky you may want one of those other positions for the chord and Biab won't give you that consistently. It may give you just one voicing for it or maybe it cycles through a few other positions every time you regenerate. That is controlled by the style weighting. Weighting is a percentage of change in the various style elements. Open up the Stylemaker and take a good look at how that works.
If you've decided you want one and only one version of that chord then you can't have Biab keep regenerating that track. Maybe the other tracks are ok but use one track as a midi guitar track and then use notation to write in the exact chord position you want by using the guitar tab screen. Of course once you've done that remember to freeze that track so if you regenerate the song the other tracks may change but the frozen one won't.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Right; well said.
Or take the song into RealBand, where you can regenerate just part of a track.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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That all sounds good to me, Bob (and Matt). Your observation that my chords are pretty basic is correct. I'm not writing songs that use complex jazz chords, so I really don't have a problem with most of what BiaB does with its arrangements of my songs. Currently, I also mostly stick to basic acoustic guitar styles that consist of strumming and finger picking (with a piano accompaniment available as well in some instances) and occasionally some rock guitar styles. So, it usually doesn't take me long to generate an arrangement that I'm happy with---as long as the style I've chosen is appropriate for the song.
The main issue for me in this thread is how BiaB maps the chords in my XML file to its chord sheet. The 2, sus, and add chords are the only ones I've encountered any problems with that have forced me to manually make changes to the chords in the chord sheet. For short songs with only one or two instances of such chords, it's really not a big deal---more of a nuisance than anything else. But with longer songs that have multiple instances of such chords, it quickly becomes a pain in the rear, especially if I keep making changes to the song that result in me having to repeatedly import a new XML file after making those changes in MuseScore. So, it would be nice if I didn't have to deal with this issue. It would also be nice if BiaB handled these chords more sensibly or at least gave the user the option to control how some chords are mapped, as in being able to map an A2 chord to an A2 chord rather than to an Aadd2, and being able to map an Asus2 chord to an Asus2 chord rather than to an A2 chord.
Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V
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Send representative example files to PG Music Support support@pgmusic.com
It's a good question. Let's find out the answer.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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