A lot of Biab users are looking for a lot of the features of Biab thinking it should be the same. I think the plugin needs to be a simple as possible for new DAW only users that would not or could not normally use Biab app due to the steep learning curve. If you need to have all the million and one functions and features that the Biab app has in the plugin it would be better having ReWire. ReWire was close to working using the ReWireVST it was just the audio was scratchy coming from the DAW. It worked fine in RealBand. ReWire would be ideal to keep the Biab made song the same with all the F5 settings, changing instruments at different bars, it would play along in sync with the DAW, if they implement the MultiRiffs in Biab the easy way I posted as it works the same way it works in the plugin (see below), then when you have the MultiRiff that fits best just drag it into the DAW, and you wouldn't need the audio track in BB as it would be playing the tracks in your DAW along with the soloed MultiRiff. I think the plugin is more to add extra instruments to an existing DAW session the same way as EZKeys, EZDrummer or MusicLab RealGuitars do.
When the 2019 Windows plugin was released there were several forum discussions about how feature rich the plugin should be. Forum members divided their opinions fairly evenly into two groups. Several users envisioned a full featured plugin that made the Band-in-a-Box program redundant. The second group's vision was to keep the plugin simple and use mainly for supplemental track generation.
I think Pipeline's comparison about using the BiaB plugin to generate audio similar to the way a user might use EZKeys or EZDrummer is spot on.
So far it appears to me that PG Music's primary focus is daw compatibility with a secondary focus on adding SGU / MGU file interpretation.
It will be interesting to find out what demonstrations are presented and discussions held at Summer NAMM.
If you need to have all the million and one functions and features that the Biab app has in the plugin it would be better having ReWire. I think the plugin is more to add extra instruments to an existing DAW session the same way as EZKeys, EZDrummer or MusicLab RealGuitars do.
I disagree. Or at least in part I do. I get it that it would maybe be complex to add ALL the features of BIAB standalone into the plugin - and Rewire provides audio and tempo-sync and comms direct to BIAB standalone- but...... BUT...Unless i'm mistaken REWIRE will not allow the DAW users to store the exact BIAB song data with the DAW project itself. Having the chord progressions and all the arrangement options stored in just one file cuts out a lot of hassle.
Now rather than put all the features of BIAB standalone for editing the arrangement - maybe some technical scheme whereby - providing the BIAB standalone app is running - BIAB standalone could server as the editor for the song arrangement data that gets saved as plugin saved-state data in the main DAW project.
I guess this is kind of how the BBM4 engine is working at the moment. It already gets used to present and process the Style Picker dialog ( which as it currently stands - GUI wise - is - lets say... sub-optimal )
So having the option instead to jut use full BIAB Standalone to edit the song - but have all the song data and any changes - passed back to the plugin for saving IN THE DAW PROJECT - this would be ideal.
We get the advantages of "total recall" for everything in the DAW project - plus - without adding much to the plugin GUI itself -having all the tools to experiment with a song arrangement as we are used to.
I think it is a false move and short-sighted to consider a PLUGIN based version of using BIAB as somehow a reduced requirement thing.
Last edited by nonchai; 09/21/1904:52 AM.
MacOS Sequoia, M4 Pro Mac Mini , 64GB RAM 512GB SSD , BIAB, Cubase, Ableton, Logic Pro, SCALER 3, GigLad, AnyTune, Synthesizer V Pro,Vienna Ensemble Pro, Audiofuse, Fractal FM3, KOMPLETE 15, StreamDeck, iReal Pro White beard, beer belly, bald patch
That's really good Pipeline. If the audio issue can be solved then it's ready.
Years ago a user who uses ReWire a lot posted about this and was saying Biab should be able to use ReWire but nothing was ever mentioned about it from PG. This always seemed to me to be a better solution than this whole VST thing. There's a big BUT though, the audio has to be good. Maybe they know all about this and can't get past that?
The EnergyXT ReWireVST works perfect with RealBand as a Rewire master. If I ReWire to Reaper I save all the editing in Reaper as a project this can then be opened in the Reaper standalone. Same with Biab any editing in Biab will be save as SGU and in Reaper RPP whether you are using the EnergyXT ReWireVST and Biab as the Rewire master and Reaper as the Rewire slave or if Rewire is implemented in Biab and it is used as a Rewire slave. Propellerhead's Reason has ReWire as well as a Reason Plugin version now (wonder where they got that idea from ?). The more workflow option you have the better. JJJ came up with the idea of a BiabVST version years back and I just picked up on the idea and pushed PG a little with ideas how it maybe could be done, and here we are with a BBVST. Same now I push for ReWire or get ReWireVST working in Biab just to give more work flow options. Some user use Biab for Live sessions, some for practice, some for songwriting, some for production, some all of the above. I don't say don't develop here or there but develop everywhere to cater for ALL users. An awesome idea was VideoTrack's Tabs that now give us Ctrl+T Fullscreen or Compact mode with Tabs, Fullscreen for the long time users to leave it the same and Compact for newer modern users.
Same with Biab any editing in Biab will be save as SGU and in Reaper RPP whether you are using the EnergyXT ReWireVST and Biab as the Rewire master and Reaper as the Rewire slave or if Rewire is implemented in Biab and it is used as a Rewire slave.
Ah - just to be perfectly clear ( its ages since I used or tried to use Rewire- namely Ableton with a DAW ) so are you saying **categorically** that my main objection with ReWire against plugin is false and that in fact - were Rewire (in its latest API incarnation ) to be added to BIAB Mac - that ALL the song arrangement data edited in BIAB - DOES get saved as part of the SavedState data in the Cubase project?
I was under the impression that the only thing saved in the DAW project was the rewire audio and MIDI I/O configuration metadata.
If this truly is the case - and ideally if BIAB can be automatically launched etc and load the save state info from any DAW project that Is using a ReWire client - and its reliable - I WOULD be perfectly happy to use Rewire.
Interestingly IAA on iOS - a rewire kind of API in some ways - of course doesn't support SavedState and is being deprecated in iOS going forward. But one presumes reWire will still be around ?
On iOS the move is pushing most (or many ) music app developers to bring out AUv3 versions of their apps - therefore making a distinction that is clear between standalone music apps and plugins.
And certainly having this client-server business with a special cut-down version of BIAB - BBM4 - is a wise solution for fast route to the plugin thing - but in a sense better to either go whole hog and offer everything in EITHER just a plugin - or (with the SaveState caveat ) offer BIAB standalone with ReWire.
All my muso-tech-consuming adult (and teen ) life I've dreamt of and almost got that famed thing from SSL mixing desks - not the movie - TOTAL RECALL .... in one project file that is.
if the answer to ReWire BIAB data SaveState in DAW is YES then I thoroughly support putting all developer resources into BIAB standalone and Rewire.
Last edited by nonchai; 09/23/1912:31 AM.
MacOS Sequoia, M4 Pro Mac Mini , 64GB RAM 512GB SSD , BIAB, Cubase, Ableton, Logic Pro, SCALER 3, GigLad, AnyTune, Synthesizer V Pro,Vienna Ensemble Pro, Audiofuse, Fractal FM3, KOMPLETE 15, StreamDeck, iReal Pro White beard, beer belly, bald patch
....... ... ... ... ............... But ..............I'm afraid just a little googling about this and perusing the data for developers on Propellerheads own developer website suggests to me that this is not the case
Pipeline + PG: I am looking for a solution that saves everything in ONE main DAW project file. Not two.
Maybe With reason and Reaper there are some interim files being used for some kind of workaround kludge -but this is the huge thing about plugins that to my mind was always an omission in ReWire. and only supported in plugins.
If there's been some very recent change to the Rewire API then i'mglad to be corrected. Very glad,
But failing that - yes - PG need to put all efforts into a better plugin implementation since its clear now that Propellerheads have not been that proactive in improving their ReWire API,
glad to be shown this isn't the case but I suspect many here are being led down the wrong path and given false ideas and hopes of where a ReWire BIAB solution could ever get to.
Besides - surely it has to be better to support one of the three major PLUGIN APIs - that are actively developed by the biggest outfits out there - Steinberg, Apple and AVID.. rather than a small but successful developer based in Sweden that has preferred to build new proprietary plugin API of its own lately (reason racks ) for its OWN DAW - Reason - rather than improve their old ReWire standard
Last edited by nonchai; 09/23/1912:52 AM.
MacOS Sequoia, M4 Pro Mac Mini , 64GB RAM 512GB SSD , BIAB, Cubase, Ableton, Logic Pro, SCALER 3, GigLad, AnyTune, Synthesizer V Pro,Vienna Ensemble Pro, Audiofuse, Fractal FM3, KOMPLETE 15, StreamDeck, iReal Pro White beard, beer belly, bald patch
Sorry I didn't read all your posts. Rewire won't save all Reaper's million settings in an SGU. What I was saying is the each application saves it's own settings in it's own project file.
Sorry I didn't read all your posts. Rewire won't save all Reaper's million settings in an SGU. What I was saying is the each application saves it's own settings in it's own project file.
You have it confused.
I wasn't asking whether (with Rewire ) Reaper ( ie DAW ) settings get saved in an SGU ( or MGU ) - ie in BIAB.
I was asking whether BIAB settings - the arrangement (SGU/MGU) get saved via ReWire in the ****DAW**** project file.
And the answer is almost certainly NO.
Which means for anyone who wants to save everything for a particular composition that uses a DAW and BIAB in a single file - ReWire won't cut it. Only a plugin like BIAB plugin can do that.
Which is why its more important that PG focus their efforts on a better BIAB plugin than Rewire - which really doesnt enhance the workflow very much at all.
Last edited by nonchai; 09/23/1911:18 AM.
MacOS Sequoia, M4 Pro Mac Mini , 64GB RAM 512GB SSD , BIAB, Cubase, Ableton, Logic Pro, SCALER 3, GigLad, AnyTune, Synthesizer V Pro,Vienna Ensemble Pro, Audiofuse, Fractal FM3, KOMPLETE 15, StreamDeck, iReal Pro White beard, beer belly, bald patch
I wasn't asking whether (with Rewire ) Reaper ( ie DAW ) settings get saved in an SGU ( or MGU ) - ie in BIAB.
I was asking whether BIAB settings - the arrangement (SGU/MGU) get saved via ReWire in the ****DAW**** project file.
I was talking using the ReWireVST that I gave you the link to try so you would see how it works. Biab is the Rewire master Reaper is the slave, when I'm done I save the SGU, close Biab, Reaper will then ask me if I want to save the Reaper project so I select yes and save it in the same folder as the SGU. If Biab has Rewire implemented you were using it as a slave to Reaper (Cubase) same deal it can't save the information inside an SGU inside the ****DAW**** project file. You will save the SGU in the ****DAW**** project folder.
This way if I slave Cubase to Biab with the ReWireVST, I can add all the extra tracks I need into Cubase, save the Cubase project. I can then open that Cubase project in Cubase standalone and master it.
With ReWire you have to load the saved SGU manually, for that inconvenience you will get 3-4 sec generate times, you will get the million and one features and functions, when you hit play on the DAW Biab will play back in sync to the DAW. But for now if Biab is fixed to work with the ReWireVST the same way RealBand works then you will be able to do the same but only with Biab as the Rewire master.
...Pipeline + PG: I am looking for a solution that saves everything in ONE main DAW project file. Not two. ...
The other day I was too tired to focus on it more. I can see where you are coming from. I haven't got back into mixing any sessions and using the BB Plugin as the BB Plugin still had issues and didn't give a good workflow. But today I tried it out in a session using the Win version. It still needs features to give a better workflow like the sync to host and a one click on the track name to select track to sync or preview. The play from RAM would be a lot better but technical side of it may need a bit of working out, as I mentioned standalone BB only generates 7 tracks at a time but the plugin has the style tracks + 14 extra tracks. We have been asking for the tracks to be generated up @ the DAW's sample rate and bit depth, so it would have to be able to generate that into RAM.
I just thought about creating a RAM Drive and set the Plugin's Saved Tracks folder to that ?? will have to go to bed and try that tomorrow see if there's any speed improvement..
The ReWire is still a better option for those set in the BB standalone and all it's features and settings that would be way too complex for the VST version. But who knows, let's see where it goes...
I think play from RAM has to be the way to go. In fact anything that can speed up generating real track parts significantly is just such a workflow enhancing thing - that efforts should go into that considerablyl. time is Monet and waiting around kills inspiration. period.
And because PG would control the API and protocol between the plugin and server ( BBM4 ) it means PG can do anything they like - and are not limited by following a 3rd party API ie ReWire.
I really thing the plugin + BBM4 ( or just BIAB ) combination should be where all the work goes into. So far I cannot see any reviewer for any magazine or pro-audio or "producer" or movie/media composer type blogs or vlogs giving any time to BIAB 2019. as it stands right now. Things simply aren't there in feature or workflow benefits to be a paradigm shifter.
But comes the time when this improves and the combination of a pro DAW becomes a fast and seamless and ***reliable*** combination this will really shake things up.
The whole drag and drop modus operandi that we've had for many years might have been a way to get BIAB real track parts into a DAW project - once one had finished an arrangement with certainty and sure nothing needed to change style or progression wise - but it locked us in.
Being able to stream audio from BBM4 or - as option BIAB standalone - but with data being saved in the DAW project - makes BIAB become a seamless part of the DAW itself. And that could really change things.
I had pestered PG to put a piano-roll editor into the Mac version for - well probably a decade now. It finally arrived - but frankly is just painful to use. And clearly - very clearly - a better route is to do such MIDi parts ( ie melody ) in a DAW itself. They (Ableton, Steinberg, Logic devs etc etc ) ve had decades to refine a decent GUI and sort out bugs.
I hope the PG team realise that the plugin isn't just a "nice to have" - something to placate a certain subset of users - but could unlock a huge new market- and more than that - make BIAB become a solid staple of modern music production in the same way Ableton and Native Instruments and Protool have been since the late 90s.
All of the technological effort should be going into this area.
Oh and along with cracking all the legion of bugs that still prevail.
Last edited by nonchai; 09/25/1901:17 PM.
MacOS Sequoia, M4 Pro Mac Mini , 64GB RAM 512GB SSD , BIAB, Cubase, Ableton, Logic Pro, SCALER 3, GigLad, AnyTune, Synthesizer V Pro,Vienna Ensemble Pro, Audiofuse, Fractal FM3, KOMPLETE 15, StreamDeck, iReal Pro White beard, beer belly, bald patch
I think play from RAM has to be the way to go. In fact anything that can speed up generating real track parts significantly is just such a workflow enhancing thing - that efforts should go into that considerablyl. time is Monet and waiting around kills inspiration. period.
And because PG would control the API and protocol between the plugin and server ( BBM4 ) it means PG can do anything they like - and are not limited by following a 3rd party API ie ReWire.
This is what VSL done with for its symphonic samplers. A shell plugin that talks to service that does all the magic (and is a VST host by itself).
But not so easy to pull off. Yet another area for bugs and roadblocks. If I wanted to connect BiaB with a DAW I'd go for ReWire and live with the fact that it is a loose coupling and not a seamless integration.
Originally Posted By: nonchai
I hope the PG team realise that the plugin isn't just a "nice to have" - something to placate a certain subset of users - but could unlock a huge new market- and more than that - make BIAB become a solid staple of modern music production in the same way Ableton and Native Instruments and Protool have been since the late 90s.
I agree that a seamless integration of BiaB as a plugin would be a killer app. If the plugin were done right no one needed yet another mini-DAW. I'm speaking of RealBand. Till it becomes a staple some work has to be put into the workflow for the users, the user interface design and the graphics design.
I had hoped that the plugin will be a one-stop-shop for fast music production. Seems that I have still to wait and hope.
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.... in one project file that is. 
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