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On just the topic of mMaj7 chords, I use this chord type all the time in Brazilian jazz. It has always worked correctly for many years.
In the very early days of RealTracks, however, I would sometimes have a piano part simply drop out on this chord, but when I reported it, a patch was issued.
About the other issues raised, I have some testing to do before commenting further. I am skeptical about some of what I’ve read.
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This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast. Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord. Bob
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Pipeline
You are in the know!
If we would treat the “mother” chord for stylemaker as mixolydian, then you could easily define all chords that biab displays as some alteration of the mother chord. We would have to treat mixolydian as Herbie Hancock does in Maiden Voyage: all the scale notes are possible! (As Marl Levine points out in the Jazz Piano Book)
The only things to watch out for are the (real) avoid notes: the third for sus chords and for phrygian, the b6 in minor chords, the unaltered 4th in major.
Passing tones could be macro notes: if next note is a whole step up, then insert chromatic below... if next note is a half step above, then insert chromatic (or scale tone) above the next tone.
What to do with “out” notes? I wouldn’t know.
There’s only three scales (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor) and two symmetrical scales to consider. And in harmonic and melodic minor a few of the modes aren’t really used.
I can’t see any chord in biab’s chord list not fitting the 21 possible scale chords (three most important scales) or the 2 symmetrical ones.
As long as bass and piano/guitar stick to scale tones and passing tones, you should be good. If you really want a specific voicing, use midi. So, if on C7alt the bass plays b9 or #9, that’s not really important. It fits the scale of the moment.
You could add the augmented scale, but I truly believe it’s not a scale that is used in composing, as much as it is an improvisational thing.
Thx for the reply and your wonderful work on reaper plugin.
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/26/19 07:31 PM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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The solution might lie just around the corner.
The bass player is illiterate, plays b7 on mMaj7, a natural 9 on a b9 chord...
The piano player is often right!
As Jazzmammal suggested, there is something with the styles.
If you pick any style, the bass part only knows 7 seventh chords!
But, in some styles, the piano player is like Guitar George: he knows all the chords.
So, where can we find the culprit?
The riff option
In some styles, where the piano player “nails” it, you could see that the “riff” option is checked.
File>Stylemaker>Edit current Style
In stylemaker: Style>Misc. Settings check the box that says “Riff” voicing type uses chord tones.
The pop up text goes like this: Riff voicing is an option... To do a simple transpose (ignoring chord type) deselect this. (!?&#€”****).
More important: guitar and piano MACRO NOTES
If the guitar and piano are getting it right... check the style patterns. They were made using MACRO notes. These play the chords nicely and are not confined to seven 7th chords!
Still... the bass player is not affected by this setting. Since most styles have simple bass lines (root and 5th) it goes unnoticed. But some nice walking bass lines reveal the tone deafness of the bass part. To the point of clashing regularly with the piano and guitar part!
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 12:18 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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I got it figured out, now!
Biab Styles know NO complex chords
Not even mMaj7 or a b9
for Piano/Guitar most styles use MACRO NOTES
MACRO NOTES know ALL the chords
since Bass has NO MACRO NOTES, it uses the style parameter: u guessed it
7 seventh chords only!
Not even mMaj7 or a b9
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 01:47 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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OK, I'll bite. What are Macro Notes?
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Just for fun, let me ask another question. DZjang, is your BIAB up to date?
Within the last year there was an update to RealTracks that fixed a number of instances of the bass not playing slash roots. I don't know what else may have been changed, so I'm just checking if you are running the latest. I didn't see this mentioned. Thanks.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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He's focused strictly on midi right now, not interested in the RT's.
The Macro notes are a parameter inside the Stylemaker that Jan discovered controls the chords for the chording instruments but not the bass.
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This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast. Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord. Bob I just inputted CmMaj7 and Cmmaj7. When I typed Cmmaj7 is showed up on the chord sheet as CmMaj7! However in both cases the correct chord was played. I have used CmMaj7 many times with no problems. YMMV
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MIDI only? OK, thanks, Bob.
Anyone who has odd things happen with chord data entry should first check if there are any user-defined entries in this file: /BB/Dada/pgshortc.txt
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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If anyone wants to know how bad the midi styles work.
Here’s an easy one
Make a new style
Every note has to fit C7, says Pgmusic.
Ok, let.s make bass notes root 5-b7-9 and reverse but starting on the root: so: root-(up)9-(downward from here)-b7-5
Make at least one 8 beats-pattern, one 4 beats, two beats, one beat is too short...
Do the same with B-part
Enter some piano,chords. Let’s say, rootless Bill Evans, old but not stale. Play 3-b7 in your left and 2-5 in your right hand and switch it up a little.you can click them on the staff or record them, keep it simple.
Do the same for the 4 beat, 2 beat patterns, make at least one pattern here and
Do the same for B
Enter a strings arpeggio: mix the notes of “root-3-5-b7-9”. Make it musical, but stick to these notes.
Save your style as r2357 or a name like that.
Make a lead sheet with the following chords:
Cmaj7 (2 bars, 1 bar, 1 bar)
CmMaj7 (same, you can change it if you like to 1 bar, 2 bars, 1 bar)
C13b9 (same)
C7alt
Listen closely to what biab presents to you. You will see that bass AND piano part play a bunch of downright wrong notes. It will make you rather sad, possibly angry.
Now do the same lead sheet with dizzy style or a bebop walking bass style. You’ll see a different pattern. The bass player plays a lot of wrong notes, but the piano player does a great job.
If you check the style maker you won’t see voicings but singlenotes: MACRO NOTES.
I ve learned a lot by trying all of this.
And I remain truly disappointed in biab, a software I have been using and buying and LOVING since the nineties.
Though the realtracks are often sublime (though more than a little old fashioned, as if Kind Of Blue was the last jazz record...), I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed.
Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed.
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 09:10 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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... snip ... I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed.
Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed. I agree 100 percent. PG Music had not paid much attention to midi lately however 35 new midi styles were released with +++ Xtra Styles PAK # 5 +++ in July, 2018. One of the strengths of Band-in-a-Box is it allows you to work with audio, midi and loops in addition to it's collection of styles, RealTracks and Super Midi Tracks.
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A bit lost by the recent treads but I love the midi-love being expressed.
To my understanding the ability to play chord extensions is related to the midi-style selected. Piano and guitar can play the many extensions accurately only if the style includes Chord Notes. However, this option is not available for bass or the other non-chordal instruments. Does that summarize the current findings?
So Dzjang can you restate the wish? What exactly do you want BIAB to do?
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Hey Musicstudent, for piano and guitar, you don’t input notes in the style maker, but Macro Notes. Each of these macro notes refer to a playing style: for guitar it’s fast or slow strumming, rootless voicings or other.
This, of course limits the possibilities for the piano and guitar also. If you would like piano or guitar play only two notes, or an arpeggiated groove, that won’t work.
To summarize
Dear PGMusic
Could you please update the stylemaker or the style-machine so that styles can play all the chords that Biab can input on the chord window?
Best regards,
Jan
PS: open up the input on guitar, piano, strings et al... to include scale or chord based input. Limiting stylemakers to using macro notes is limiting.
PPS: users go through great lengths to input correct chords or buy packs like the New Real Books by Norton... at this time the Bass part is wrong (if the style includes 9ths and 7ths, like on RnB or jazz styles) if your song contains chords with altered ninths, mMaj7. NRB’s 1-2-3 are filled with intricate chords and this helps you progress as a player. Please, make it sound right.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Really nice detective work Jan. I knew this was related to the styles but I've never investigated exactly how that works. The Stylemaker has been available forever but I can name maybe 3 people who understand it and one of those is Bob Norton and another was Mac who hasn't posted here for 3-4 years. Otherwise nobody writes about it, it's probably the single most underused part of the program. Everybody simply uses the styles given to us and that's the end of it.
If these changes to the Stylemaker can be done and then applied to existing styles then by all means it should be done. Sadly, there's only a few midi jazz styles anyway, it should not be that hard to do.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Don't really understand all of this and don't really want to get into deep programming of BIAB. But I am impressed with the content in this thread and very interested in where it can go.
So a big +1 from me.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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All, This is the first in a series of threads about updating the midi Stylemaker. +++ This +++ is a link to the second thread.
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Since there has been some debate over the (in)ability of Biab to correctly play jazz chords in midi styles... I now want to add some proof of the absurd and disturbing mistakes (bugs?) biab makes. To avoid needless discussion:I disabled “natural arrangement” in Preferences/Arrangement I turned off “simple bass” in Overrides For each instrument I turned off natural arrangement and embellishment Please, if you want to debate harmony.... Check if you’re familiar with diminished harmony or every mode of melodic minor or you know the difference between phrygian and phrygian natural 13. If you’re not familiar with it, that’s cool, but this discussion is really intended for intermediate or advanced players who like to practice and improve their playing. No offense. Piano bugshttps://www.dropbox.com/s/mrz7u3ceic3dgnn/PIANOPARTBRUBK.pdf?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/co371tn8w8f76uq/PIANOPARTBR300.pdf?dl=0Bass bugshttps://www.dropbox.com/s/3mia8zswdzmdo30/BRUBECKBALLADBASSPART.pdf?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/s1r7f68j8uiky7d/BASSPARTBRUSH300.pdf?dl=0So, why do I care? Biab could be the best tool to learn to reharmonize tunes. As the midi style player works today, it is really bad for practicing and improving your playing. Biab has potential for learning and teaching. Say you want to substitute II-V with Vsus4b9 (jazz piano book)... for now, biab doesn’t have the harmonic sophistication and just plays wrong. This makes the student uneasy and is unhelpful. It makes you sound bad even if you are right. Alternatives?Yamaha arrangers are the closest to “perfect” for amateur jazz musicians or students, harmony-wise. Since it has no notation or chord player like in Biab and it is really geared towards left hand harmony input (one touch chords...), it is not as good. Imagine being a trumpet player and freeing your left hand to play all the changes... None of the other softwares really know sus4b9. At least, biab gets it right sometimes.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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It's hard to argue with that evidence.
It appears that improvements are required.
+1
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Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac Videos
With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll also keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.
From overviews of new features and walkthroughs of the 202 new RealTracks, to highlights of XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAKs 18, the 2025 49-PAK, and in-depth tutorials — you’ll find everything you need to explore what’s new in Band-in-a-Box® 2025.
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Mac Videos — we’ll be adding more videos as they’re released!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until July 31, 2025! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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