Some neat ideas here! I think to do it user friendly and logical a mixer has to be "open" to possibilities.
Mario +10!!!
VideoTrack, Yes, logicaly sound.... but having a "freeze" option on individual regenerated track would allow to use the segment on particular bars or not simply by going to "bar option" and do mute/unmute thing. It would solve many requests in "one" feature.
For that to happen "easy" way, for user that is, re-generations should reside in individual "subtracks" of the mixer. Clearly visible and available for Mute/Unmute/Solo/Freeze operation. So it does not take too much space, collapsible? In the same way you showed a concept of collapsible mixer some time ago.
Pipeline, Why on the bottom? Why not Sub-tracked to original mixer track they were generated from? And as I mentioned in "wishlist" request, do these "regenerations" on request. One click "+" gives you next regeneration in sub track, leaving original (or previous) in place. For example 2962: organ, rhythm... Next Regeneration would be created as subtrack with name lets say: 2962: R1 organ, rhythm... 2962: R2 organ, rhythm... etc.
... VideoTrack, Yes, logicaly sound.... but having a "freeze" option on individual regenerated track would allow to use the segment on particular bars or not simply by going to "bar option" and do mute/unmute thing. It would solve many requests in "one" feature. ...
As mentioned, I only provided my thoughts on the 'basic' form of operation. Yes, there are many additional possibilities.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
Some interesting ideas here. My biggest fear as I have stated is that major changes to the program could cause years of smoothing out and more and more problems. I have heard from so many people here regarding frustration of bugs and problems that rock on for years not having time or resources to fix in the program. To me this is a whole can of worms just waiting to be opened.
Okay so one wants to stay in BiaB and not leave to a DAW. In order to accomplish this. The program would need far more that just a few extra audio tracks. It would need a true mixer with FX busses, convenient routing. Far better implementation of plugins, better looping and comping tools. Basically it would need to be completely changed into a full figured DAW with everything that a DAW has. Why? Because if it didn’t people would keep asking for more features, more options, more upgrades. Eventually the core program as we know it now and as thousands of others use it would slowly cease to exist.
To my thinking a far more practical approach is to refine the programs available and not totally replace them. We have BiaB with full DAW implementation. It’s called RB, now before anyone says but RB is a little bit shakey, let’s imagine what if RB received a complete make over instead of BiaB rebuilding RB adding to its already rich feature set, better routing, better plugins, solid 64 bit audio engine, unlimited tracks, a more flexible mixer view, modern GUI, a simple one button movement to send a file from BiaB to RB seamlessly without closing one program and opening another. Like an auto open/close feature.
Imagine RB if functions, had the features, and looked like a top flight DAW like a studio one, Cubase, Cakewalk, Reaper. Leave BiaB to do what it does best build a track base, play before full generation. Handle simple but complex arrangements, and leave the tracking, mixing, and mastering to a true DAW.
The reason I propose this is it keeps PGMs release cycle intact. Allowing for BiaB to have some minor upgrades or basic core feature refinements each year for both win and Mac. It allows the developers to continue to add really cool content of RTs, RDs, etc. the company thrives financially, but uses resources to, on the side put a small team on RB and make it what everyone has wanted for years a true companion to BiaB. A rich deep Powerful, stable, DAW that rivals the biggies, yet has all the BiaB power behind it. Bar to bar regen, multiriffs in multiple places, Unlimited RT/RD/midi features. Layer type comping, rich full featured automation of everything.
If this happens to BiaB instead we risk a complete disruption of the core program and maybe several years of major issues as the program is rewritten. RewriteRB instead it doesn’t exist for Mac and this could be implemented as well. Those who use it can use the existing version. The new version can come along with out pressure. Take a whole year for a team to develop it.
Let the plugin be refined to the point it is stable, and solid and has all the basic features working, for those who choose to work in third party DAWs.
Just my thoughts on a plan that would keep all users happy. And give PGM a solid path.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 12/09/1904:14 AM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
Rob, I agree that keeping BiaB as BiaB and not a DAW is paramount.
I also agree that RB could stand an upgrade. BUT if RB has all of the bells and whistles of a full DAW like Studio One, Cubase, Reaper, etc, will consumers be willing to pay for those upgrades? If one has to fork out $100 to $400 USD for RB might they be better getting an already established DAW?
As far as BiaB goes I am a firm believer that it needs a major rewrite. I should include all open tracks for user discretion, include real time signatures other than just 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4, etc, while keeping its main function of a backing track generator. Sure it may take some time to work out the bugs but IMHO that would be better then continuing getting 50 new features while ignoring what is wrong with the program now.
For the record I am not a BiaB hater. In fact virtually all of my songs start in BiaB. BiaB is the second most used music program in my arsenal, with Studio One being used more.
YMMV
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I would agree with A rewrite if it didn’t upset the annual release cycle as that is what helps PGM survive. Another approach is to not rewrite but slowly pound out all nagging bugs in the program rather 50 new features amp up the RT/RD program. But I hear ya.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 12/09/1906:39 AM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
I would agree with A rewrite if it didn’t upset the annual release cycle as that is what helps PGM survive. Another approach is to not rewrite but slowly pound out all nagging bugs in the program rather 50 new features amp up the RT/RD program. But I hear ya.
Yes, this would be ideal for sure. My take is, whether right or wrong, is that the program's code is so old that it really can't be changed. Doing so may be like trying to put Lamborghini engine in an old Chevy Nova, it ain't gonna work! If things like opening up all tracks, adding different time signatures, etc, were easier I would have thought they would have been done by now.
Maybe PGMusic could work on a rewrite and instead of a new 50 feature upgrade they could issue new RTs, RDs, and MIDI stuff that would work on the previous years program. We get new stuff and they get to continue working on a rewrite.
YMMV
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Guys!!! We are making this far more complicated than it needs to be!!!
First of all, this is NOT the thread to talk about new time sigs or true mixers or complete rewrites of Realband! SHEEEESH! When you start talking about all that then, yes, it starts to be overwhelmingly huge!
BUT, if we bring the conversation back to MultiRiffs, or better yet, forget MultiRiffs and just focus on bar-by-bar regeneration, this becomes a WHOLE LOT EASIER to accomplish without anything even approaching a full rewrite of BIAB!
Below is a simple way to add bar-by-bar regeneration using the BIAB code that already exists and no new channels or anything new that is complicated.
1) let me choose a single track for regeneration - BIAB already has the ability to only generate one track as I do it all the time by freezing every track except the one I need changed. and BIAB already has the mechanism to select a single track at the top of the screen.
2) let me select bars for regeneration - BIAB already allows us to select bars for various reasons so that code is already there
3) set an Undo flag here and store state
4) generate only the bars selected on only the selected track - BIAB can be coded to regenerate only those bars (OR an even simpler way would be to regenerate the entire track in memory and then splice the new bars into the proper place in the original track after the complete track is regenerated. BIAB already knows how to generate a complete track!)
5) let me hear the changes - BIAB already provides all of this functionality because the track at this point is simply a BIAB track!
6) provide an undo capability to revert back to the the state in step #3 above if I don't like the result and even pre-select the bars so I can easily roll it again!
This approach would require very little new code and absolutely no special new features. It would also be extremely fast since only a small section of a single track would be generated each time I roll.
From a workflow standpoint this would be super smooth! I just create my BIAB song, select the track and bars I want regenerated and then click the Regen button a few times until I hear what I like! Super easy and fast!
One improvement to the above would be to track the riffs BIAB assembled during a regen session so that subsequent regens in that session do not bring back the same set of riffs. This would ensure each time I click the Regen button during a regen session I'd get something new.
I think after the big 32 > 64 write a total re-write will be down the track away. But the bar to bar re-gen that has been requested for years would be good to see, when I used RealBand all the time this is what I used endlessly as it was so simple just highlight the bars (or beats) of the track and re-gen. A lot of users prefer Biab over RealBand because the tracks are generated direct to RAM so it's instant, but we may just get that feature in the Biab Plugin now.
Here's a way that the current MultiRiffs can be improved, with just a bit or programming. : Here's the flow if you're in a current song: 1. When you select MutiRiff, it will ask if you want your master (all unmuted tracks) for the MultiRiff Audio guide track. If so BB will render it to stereo wav with Audio muted. BB will save current song frozen. 2. The rendered Audio master will be loaded into the MultiRiff session. A riff will be chosen by soloing or selecting in a dialog. 3. The current song will be restored, frozen tracks loaded back into ram and the Selected Riff will be brought back into the Audio track. 4. If a section needs a re-gen or new section added it will go back into MutiRiff again, gen that section. 5. Back to original song it will paste or paste overwrite the new section into the Audio track.
You're right. I got off track on this thread and I apologize for that.
I agree that a bar by bar regeneration as you described is an option that I would like to see.
No problem at all Mario! There are so many improvement opportunities it is easy to do!
I am quite impressed with all of the thought everyone is putting into this feature but I cannot help but think we will all be better served if PGM just keeps it simple and keeps it inline. There are way too many BIAB rabbitholes to fall into!
JJJ, dude you are right on. I got way off too. The reason being I hate the idea of super/major changes they always bring super/major issues. Simple is good. Your thoughts on bar by bar is spot on. I can see that being very powerful for BiaB users. I still think it’s time for some deep love for RB instead. I wouldn’t mind seeing RB be an upgrade cost, but only if it was upgraded to be similar to a big time DAW. Make it have deep comping, routing, unlimited tracks, advanced plugins and plugin chains like Studio one. Modern GUI and work flow.
I envision a one click button in BiaB where when you create a track bed and your ready to add personal tracks, vocals and such. Click the button and BiaB closes and a newly upgraded RB opens automatically. Allowing full DAW functions.
That and polish up the plugin to a solid complete but basic solution.
Next keep pounding out the RTs!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
Callie just posted a new video for how to use MultiRiffs at the top of this forum today.
It didn't look too hard to use. I may reference this video for when I want to use the feature. It was featured to just use on 4 bars so that was great.
I watched it and I am still disappointed at the convoluted way this was implemented! I would MUCH prefer generating in place and not being required to drag and drop WAV files into the audio channel. I saw some strangeness as well. What happened to the rest of the mandolin track? What if I wanted to keep that track and just change a few bars of it? And what happens if I wanted to change several bars on some other tracks? And how would I reintegrate all of those Multiriffs into BIAB?
It would have been far more useful if I could just select my bars and click regenerate to generate those bars only!
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