But why is idea of freezing selected bars and generating(re-generating) unfrozen sections is not better?
I'm just talking the basics of being able to regenerate a section and leave the rest as it is like in RealBand. You could implemented this in many different ways to give options. If you just want it done to one section of one instrument without changing chords just to give a different riff.
Or if you change the chords and need to generate up all tracks in that section then you could have the color, freezing, un-freezing, inverting like you say.
I'm sure there would be more ways you could implement this but you need that basic function of being able to regenerate any section else none of it will work.
Why are you scared of RB? What's up with that? I use it ALL THE TIME especially the selective generation part. It has 48 freaking tracks! You don't even need to mess with an already generated track by highlighting certain bars to change, just arm a new track and use that.
Say you want to wind up with 7 instruments. You can start with one Biab style for all 7 if you want but with RB you can have a different style for each track along with different chords for each track plus different part markers. RB is a DAW you have full control over everything!
You want to test an and experiment? You can set up 5 different tracks for each instrument each with it's own chord grid and style. Midi or audio. Different synths for the midi tracks, different RT's for the audio tracks. For your 7 instrument song you are STILL only using 35 of the 48 available tracks! Do you see the possibilities here? AND, this is using each track to individually test each instrument. You can break each track down into groups of bars and separately generate those sections. How many choices would have then? 35 tracks broken up into say 8 bar sections? Are you kidding me? You could spend months auditioning and mixing all those combinations of styles, chords, drum tracks, fills, all using midi and audio.
RB is not perfect but it is NOT some useless POS program that crashes all the time! Anything can be improved including RB but because of all the criticism it looks like all focus is on the plugin. OK fine. It can't replace RB yet but it's getting there but for now RB is pretty much solving all your concerns.
I just don't get all the disdain for RB. It's fantastic imho.
I just don't get all the disdain for RB. It's fantastic imho.
One of my favorite sayings: "Everything's easier when you know how"
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Bob, I do not know how to put it gently...as this was just discussed in another forum topic. I feel that RB is 8-10 years behind top 5 DAWS. I do not want to invest my very limited time to learn something that had not seen love in loooooooooooooonnng time
I have only 2 major and 2 mild complaints about BIAB.
1)Bar freeze/ partial bar regeneration. 2)GUI!! Flexible, modular, scalable with auto hide mixer. -- 3)More mixer channels (+ dedicated midi channel) 4)Significantly reduce regeneration time. I think it can be accomplished if bar freeze is done the right way.
When these are done, and I have HOPE that all of these will be done sooner or later, most of my complaints will vanish, leaving room for occasional wish-list suggestions and laid back discussion As of now, I can pretty much avoid using scary RB.
Bob. it is just a matter of taste. That's all. Some years ago I visited parts of Asia. People cooked weird stuff on the streets, like brains and intestines for example. You can smell this delicacy from far away. I am sure, locals loved that smell and taste. I was scared...To me, it was far from what I would consider to be made for human consumption.
And a mirror example. I have Asian friend and once he said something about wine that went like this: How can you take delicious, sweet fruit and make such crap out of it.
I think you are being too harsh. Certain workflow means a lot to some people, including me... Some folks grew into the workflow of RB, they know it inside out. I get that.
Some people do not like Cakewalk, to me it is the BEST DAW ever! I grew up with it, I know my way around and features that I use regularly are missing from all other DAWs from Cubase to Mixcraft and everything in between.
I think to most advocates of RB it is about getting from point A to point B. To most of us, it is getting to point A to point B in a comfort coach with AC running and a toilet around the corner. Is it fair to request comfort for paid software? I believe so. But hey, this ticket is complimentary, you do not have to use it
...most importantly Noel why you !! Free Version Have Anything to do with this,,?
beatmaster,
I'm not quite sure what to say to your above comment.
I'd have thought that you'd know me much better than that after being on the forum for a while. I was seriously disappointed to read these words.
If I have done anything to you that deserved such an attack, please let me know what it is so that I can address it and we can clear the air.
For those who read this thread.... I agree with Jazzmammal because what he said is my experience of Realband. I don't use it as a DAW, I use is as an extension of BIAB to do things that BIAB cannot do and it works really well for me. I find it a valuable stepping stone between BIAB and Reaper.
I'm more than a little disappointed to read your statement. I don't think anyone here deserved to be jumped on for offering their own honest views and helpful advice.
You don't have to agree with anyone's particular views, but don't lower the tone of this fantastic forum by denigrating the honest works put forward by others, nor do you score anything for the unwarranted innuendo.
Nobody set out to personally admonish you. Why the attack? I personally find this very disappointing. Lets all work together to deliver a better game.
I could add "I'm listening", but I definitely won't. That kind of provocation would not be helpful.
A better game, please. We would all be better for it.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
<< One of my most annoying issues with BIAB is regeneration time. With any small change I sit and wait and wwwaaaaiiiittt... Life is precious, but I do not feel that when I am just looking at the screen waiting for regeneration to finish. Trying out things, I could make well over 100 changes in one tune that I would want to audition.
Ideally I would want regeneration times to be a fraction what they are now... About 75% faster.
My computer is fast enough >>
Here's some suggestions that addresses these issues you have while remaining completely within BIAB - No DAW's allowed. (In Creating tracks not editing)
. Starting with your initial Chord chart and Style selection - Save it in a dedicated project folder . With every change you make that you are somewhat or completely satisfied with, do a Save As and save that version of the project to the dedicated project folder . You are saving the above projects saved at different completion levels so you can always revert to a prior project level if things get messed up with auditions and instrument changes. You do this because you can program in dozens of changes and instruments in a single generation of a BIAB project. . regarding Regenerations - Rather than waste time by generating each and every single change, use the Chord Chart (particularly the UNUSED BARS Section) to enter your chord change experiments and instrument auditions. You can literally generate 100 chord changes in a single generation and at the same time do it with dozens of instruments. Regeneration times would be a fraction of what they are now. . .
For example, if your song is 90 bars in length, There are 165 unused bars that can be utilized to program experimental chord changes, chord progression changes, marker changes, tempo changes, shots, holds, rests, etc. These would be placed in the unused bars below your song chart and could be deactivated before rendering your song but also rendered if desired to be inserted and used in your project.
You can reconstruct single bars, multiple bars or entire sections. Generation time will increase a few seconds but you will have generated possibly dozens of snippets to audition and save for use in your final project. Every time you regenerate, these extra bars will also generate so multiple regenerations will result in hundreds of possible snippets.
Simply by using a feature in the Mixer Tracks that allows up to 10 instrument changes per track, utilize this feature to have specific instruments to come in and out at various bars which will force the BIAB search engine to more creatively and randomly search and select that instruments audio snippets. . For example - Alternately place a banjo and guitar on a track so that they change every two bars, every 4 bars, every 6 bars and every 8 bars to create different phrases within just 8 instrument changes.
Hopefully, there's something in these suggestions that will aid in speeding up generations in yours and others workflow.
This is the Wishlist forum so requesting faster generation times is completely legit but Rustyspoon included the words Possible Solutions. Real Band is the solution right now and the plugin could be another soon.
When it was created in 2008 it was SPECIFICALLY described as a new program that addresses things that Biab cannot do such as generating specific sections of a track. As a DAW RB only works on what you tell it to do so generating a few bars in the middle of a single track is pretty much immediate.
The fact RB is now over 10 years old does not mean it's been stagnant. The only thing new in the world is the history you haven't learned yet. I was a tester when RB was first introduced, there has been a TON of development just like with the plugin now. It may not be as far along as some would like but it works pretty well as it is.
RB is just another tool. A professional auto mechanic wants and needs the best so he will pay 12K for a set of Snap On tools. The best. A backyard hobbyist will have a mismatched collection of all kinds of tools that can't touch those Snap Ons. How much do you want to pay for the best? For $500 RB would be awesome I'm sure.
Below is what I posted yesterday but PGM deleted it. ----------------------------- I have used most of the top DAWs. And Realband is not even remotely close to being in the same league as the top DAWs. Plain and simple. It is incredibly sluggish with an awful GUI. It suffers from much of the BIAB excessive dialog window disease. I know this will sound harsh but it looks and feels like a prototype of a DAW that was never finished.
Just add true inline regeneration and/or add freeze bars selectively in BIAB. Then clean up the BIAB GUI and let Realband become a legacy product that its few hardcore fans can use to their hearts content while the rest of us finish our projects in a modern DAW.
I’ve used many of the top DAWs including several in recording studios. I have not used RealBand so I can’t comment on that. But I do wish BIAB could add regeneration of a selection. If not, then selectively freezing bars could help too.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Charlie, first of all, thank you for extensive reply. The core of techniques you describe are workarounds. However, I am requesting a faster regenerations "out of the box" as I feel it should be. It was probably "ok" for the year 2005-2010, but 10 years later.... This is my request
I believe a well thought out, user friendly bar freeze could potentially solve 2 big issues with BIAB.
----------- Bob, "The fact RB is now over 10 years old does not mean it's been stagnant." Sorry, I feel it is stagnant, compared all top DAWs. The possible solutions that I mentioned on top of my post relate particulary to BIAB, not solutions in general.
"RB is just another tool." Agreed., just not the one I would use ----
JJJ, On personal level I agree with most you said. I sincerely hoped that 2020 would bring some positive change to BIAB program, but things I was hoping to see were not there and the most advertised feature did not work as I hoped for. Hopefully, they are just working on true improvements behind the curtains. If they are not, somebody has to waken them, before it is too late. I have patience, but I do wish to see progress, especially in the software part, The RT/RD part I am satisfied 95% with.
P.S. I believe Noel and Charlie mentioned using MIDI tracks for chording, for faster generation. This is not my workflow. I have to and I want to hear how it sounds with actual RTs. used in the project and how these RT's react to changes as a group, not individual tracks.
I support the request, however, I don't know enough about the internals of the program to understand the complexity required to deliver.
Nevertheless, faster generation is an improvement definitely worthy of consideration.
+1
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I want to say that I also support the request for a button for faster regeneration and say that my remarks have not been to convey the idea I don't but rather note my previous comments addressed the question posed in the title.
Regarding the question, "possible solutions?", first, the definition of 'workaround' on Google is that a workaround is "a method for overcoming a problem or limitation in a program or system." accepting that as a valid definition, the techniques I described above should not be considered workarounds no more than having to type on the keyboard to enter chords onto the Chord Chart. Respectfully, every method, technique, tool or feature I mention above are all normal components of the BIAB program and no procedure ventures outside of what are normal results of utilizing the functions.
For instance, there's nothing unusual and out of the ordinary of having 165 unused bars available to program shots, holds, rests and chord progressions to generate small audio clips to possibly use in your project. Audio is a definite component of BIAB as demonstrated by the Audio Track, Audio editor, ACW, Performance Tracks and the Audio Recording function. Placing multiple instruments on a track will always be faster than designating single instruments per track if the method is compatible with a song project.
My comments above are directed toward defining workaround, regarding faster re-generations, I don't see how any programming change can result in faster generations than using the unused bars of a song project to program 20-30 audio clips to audition and cut/paste into your project from a single generation of the song. I consider that a possible solution option and not a workaround.
But like others , I support the request because a programming change can produce a faster generation in a much simpler process than anything I've mentioned.
+1 for the idea of faster RealTracks and RealDrums regeneration. Faster regeneration is a never ending goal I think PG Music has always sought to obtain.
The issue might be that since each improvement is small and happens over the course of years it is difficult to notice the improvement while using the product every day. This is similar to how quick any Windows computer feels after a new operating system install but then slows down through daily use. The operating system slowdown is not noticeable until the day you notice it. Then it is in your face every day. I suspect, but do not know, that the cumulative reduction of RealTracks and RealDrums regeneration time has been reduced and would be noticeable if a comparison test was performed.
What would I consider a comparison test that could demonstrate a noticeable improvement in RealTrack and RealDrum regeneration time? I'd say a new install of 2010 Band-in-a-Box UltraPlus PAK against a new install of 2020 Band-in-a-Box UltraPlusPAK, on two computers having the same specifications and operating system using the same song file that loads the same instrument tracks.
The UltraPlus PAK programs provide the most content without providing wave audio files. Because part of the regeneration process is finding the correct RealTracks and RealDrums and converting the wma files to WAV files it would not be fair to use the Audiophile packages.
I would expect the comparison test to use two, comparable computers to prevent the 2010 program from accidentally using files introduced after the release of 2010.
The song file would need to use RealDrums and RealTracks that were released in 2010 or earlier so they would be available to both programs.
Perhaps PG Music will read this thread and think a comparison test is a good idea for marketing purposes. Perhaps a long time user will have the needed resources and think such a comparison test is interesting. Maybe such a person will post a comparison test video to YouTube.
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