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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Dec 2016
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I think understanding both the instrument you are trying to emulate and also the VSTi you are using are important. Sometime back I purchased an AmpleSound Taylor (AGT) VST. I was a bit disappointed with the sound thinking I wish I’d bought the Martin.
Last week I decided to bite the bullet and buy the AmpleSound Precision Bass (ABP) to redo some bass parts I’m not happy with. (I have a real Precision I bought in 1970 or so that I left with my daughter)
Whilst learning the ABP I very quickly learnt I was using the AGT all wrong. In a nutshell the VST is so powerful I was getting lost.
I know how to play guitar and have both a Maton Acoustic and a Telecaster with me but find recording my own stuff not nearly so good as good sample based stuff. I actually prefer to use good sampled instruments and/or BIAB RealTracks.
These days it seems there are many really well recorded instruments that are well worth using IMHO.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/03/20 12:43 AM.
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BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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...
3. Drums. After years of frustrating keyboard entry and grid entry. I sprung for Jamstix. Big step up in realism but still not what I was hoping for. 2 years ago, I bought EZDrummer 2 and I haven’t looked back and have never been disappointed with the results. Incredibly realistic. Excellent tweak ability. Easy to use. ,,, Drum plugins have come a long way. EZDrummer 2 lets you copy the midi stream from the plugin into a DAW which makes it easy to study the midi stream to understand what allows it to sound realistic. Some plugins have builtin mixers to control the audio for each drum instrument, effects and multiple audio outputs. Most guitar plugins include a large library of strumming and / or finger picking patterns and allow slash chords to program the bass strings independent of the chords. Then there are keyswitch notes that select different articulations like fret noise, hand mute or harmonics. All of these dedicated tools help to generate a midi stream that will sound realistic. It's a good time to have audio production as a hobby.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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3. Drums. After years of frustrating keyboard entry and grid entry. I sprung for Jamstix. Big step up in realism but still not what I was hoping for. 2 years ago, I bought EZDrummer 2 and I haven’t looked back and have never been disappointed with the results. Incredibly realistic. Excellent tweak ability. Easy to use. ,,, Drum plugins have come a long way. EZDrummer 2 lets you copy the midi stream from the plugin into a DAW which makes it easy to study the midi stream to understand what allows it to sound realistic. Some plugins have builtin mixers to control the audio for each drum instrument, effects and multiple audio outputs. Most guitar plugins include a large library of strumming and / or finger picking patterns and allow slash chords to program the bass strings independent of the chords. Then there are keyswitch notes that select different articulations like fret noise, hand mute or harmonics. All of these dedicated tools help to generate a midi stream that will sound realistic. It's a good time to have audio production as a hobby. Agreed. EZ Drummer midi files were played by top drawer drummers, as are Groove Monkee drum midi. The sampled kits in EZ Drummer are outstanding. I've never even bothered looking at the MIDI because I don't need to - all of the elements are there for song composition without any issue. So easy to use.
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The magic with making Midi sound real is in the nuances, as I mentioned previously. Most live players do NOT think about the nuances in the music as they play. We simply play the parts. For example when I play my guitar, I think about the song, the music, the notes, the groove, the feel and my tone. Sometimes it's conscious and most of the time it's not. What I'm not thinking about is the fret noise, the pick noise, the note slurs, the natural vibrato I use, and a dozen other things...etc.
So if you, as a midi player, wanted to copy my performance via midi and make it sound just like my playing, you not only have to consider all the things I do.... and replicate them, but you also have to figure out where and when to incorporate the things I do not think about when I'm playing and place them in the music at the right time, the right level, and the right sequence. To not do that or to place them incorrectly , not enough, or too much, results in a performance that once again, doesn't pass the "sounds real" test.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, it is, but it certainly takes a level of talent and understanding of the instrument, and how it's played, that you are trying to replicate in a professional manner.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi everyone  This thread has been really helpful as I was thinking of posting something along these lines. My position is slightly different - I basically want to be able to have nice sounding samples to use as melodies for my BIAB tracks. I don't plan on using these as fully polished pieces of music, but I would like to have good sounding demos to go along with the sheet music that I sell. At the moment, BIAB does a good job (on the whole) of providing a nice rhythm section, but it's a little ruined with rubbish general MIDI playing the melody. I fully appreciate what everyone has said about playing with the MIDI commands to fine-tune a line to make it sound real. Unfortunately I just don't have time for that (other than some basic dynamics/articulations which are part of the sheet music anyway); I'd just like to have some instruments that sound better than the default sounds. What would people recommend in this situation? I'm willing to splash out if it's worth it. Thanks!
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For those new to the need for better MIDI sound, the first question is do you want a hardware or software solution? The following page was written by PG Music. It is quite dated now, but it’s still a good way to get an introduction. https://www.pgmusic.com/dare-to-compare.htm In particular, compare the Ketron to the TSS-1. Hardware is easier. The drawbacks include finding a patch map (but many of us have written them, and there are ways to make conversions); and recordings must be done in real time. Software ranges from free to tremendously expensive, and can be complex to set up.
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Hi everyone .............. I fully appreciate what everyone has said about playing with the MIDI commands to fine-tune a line to make it sound real. Unfortunately I just don't have time for that (other than some basic dynamics/articulations which are part of the sheet music anyway); I'd just like to have some instruments that sound better than the default sounds. What would people recommend in this situation? I'm willing to splash out if it's worth it. Thanks! The first question I would ask is what instrument do you want to play your lead lines? If you say any brass, string instruments, or woodwinds then you would have to use some MIDI commands to add some realism. The best instruments to use that require little MIDI knowledge are pianos, organs, vibes, etc. Personally when I am auditioning a lead MIDI file I choose vibes. There are many VSTis for pianos, organs, etc. Google/bing them and you will find them. There are some good ones that are either free or inexpensive and of course there are some that are very expensive. But for what you goal is the expensive ones are not needed. Also don't overlook soundfonts or SFZ sounds. You might have a SFZ player if you have the PC version of BiaB: note I don't know about the Mac side. Some of the free sounds for those players can be very good. I hope this helps.
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Hi Matt and Mario
Thanks for your responses - you've both given me lots to think about and I'm starting to wonder if actually I would like something more comprehensive than simply better sounds for melodies.
As great as BIAB is for backings to songs and jazz standards, it might be nice to breathe life into my other (more classical) works, so perhaps I need something a bit more wide-ranging.
I think I'll go and do some research!
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Hi Matt and Mario
Thanks for your responses - you've both given me lots to think about and I'm starting to wonder if actually I would like something more comprehensive than simply better sounds for melodies.
As great as BIAB is for backings to songs and jazz standards, it might be nice to breathe life into my other (more classical) works, so perhaps I need something a bit more wide-ranging.
I think I'll go and do some research!
This is in part an arranging question - and is the main reason, up to now, I have avoided BIAB. The kind of music I compose is relatively non-dependent on brass or woodwind solo instruments. I don't know if that's because the types of music I enjoy generally doesn't use those (although I recently picked up a Wynton Marsalis' In Gabriel's Garden which is glorious), or if I've migrated to writing/arranging songs which don't depend on those instruments. I play all manner of guitars to enough satisfaction to make my recordings of such listenable to myself and others. Chicken or Egg?
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OK, there are several threads running through this. As a disabled musician, editing music scores to study the rhythm and influence that a particular rhythm holds is really the basics of music. For me the way I choose which midi or Realtrack set I am going to learn and study for the week. I have worked out a system for the 77 midi sets and the 354 realtracks. I write out and cut strips up to 300 on real tracks 100,200,300 then I write Real 10's, 10, 20, 30,40,50, but I have included the word real on those. Then I write my ones out real 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. Then I do the same for the midi sets, 10,20,30,40,50,60,70 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 onto paper strips roll each one up like spliced tape and pick out the 10's and 1, for midi. and picking a real 100,10's and 1's for the Real Tracks. That way I am exposed to different styles. and try to practice that style.
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Expecting ourselves to carry enough attention to just do that score. I doubt most of us could easily do that. It is better to mix and match styles in Biab there are plenty. Then we can develop our tones. I think midi is more creative, but you have to develop musical qualities to discern what's good and what else you have to add something into it.
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I forgot to add I stuff them into a baggie and shake it.
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If you own a Mac I would consider getting logic Pro X. It is a pretty good DAW and it has a good range of reasonable quality instruments of all kinds. You would have everything covered as far as honing your skills goes.
Getting a 'natural' sound out of midi is probably just as much about learning how to manipulate midi than about the instruments.
Logic also comes with a brilliant Drummer. I use it all the time although I do use EZ Drummer for the instrument sounds.
There are heaps of tutorials on Logic.
Last edited by Chris Dent; 04/21/20 02:30 PM.
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