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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 457
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 457 |
I'm thinking most specifically about MIDI drum tracks here, which is when the balance between the various pieces of kit is, to me, most egregious. You know, there's a good reason why a studio engineer mics every piece of a drummer's kit. What BiaB does to MIDI drum tracks makes it pretty obvious why it should be done.
The bass drum is almost always WAY too loud with the Standard and Room sets. Not so bad with the jazz set, but then the jazz set's bass drum sounds like one is thumping a soft pillow. If a side stick is being used, it usually isn't loud enough. The hi-hat is almost never loud enough, and there aren't enough options that include a ride cymbal (imo). Plus, sometimes there's a perfect balance of items except one. Like those sticks that get knocked together. Those things drive me nuts. I would love to be able to kill their output entirely, which would turn an aggravating track into a very nice one.
I don't know how PGM would go about implementing such a feat. I just know it needs to be done. But there's a big problem with this request and that is that it isn't possible to edit a track unless it is the melody or soloist track. So until PGM changes this fault, my request can't make it to first base. And I'm stuck with having to export the MIDI drums to a program like Cakewalk, which uses all sorts of arcane looking symbols for the various percussion items, and do the editing there.
I can hear your keys clattering already. Why don't I just use DrumTracks instead? Why indeed. Okay, I'll agree that they do seem to be better balanced. But you know, for starters, I have come across more variability, and even more interesting drum tracks that are MIDI than I have as DrumTracks. When I do a search through the DrumTracks for a type of feel, I usually come back to the same three or four styles that fit what I'm looking for. In this regard, I've found there to be a much better offering of MIDI tracks than DrumTracks. Surprised me, but I find it to be true.
So yet another wish that might, if I'm very lucky, be realized in my lifetime.
Oh, almost forgot to mention -- I'm using Cakewalk's excellent TTS-1 synth to realize my MIDI tracks.
Last edited by cooltouch; 01/16/20 04:05 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,286
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,286 |
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Veteran
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,691 |
Use better synths there are literally hundreds of chooses. Also use drum synths like ez drummer, slate drums, jamstix etc.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 167
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 167 |
I understand why you want to balance the kits pieces. What I don't get is why you want to do it on a MIDI velocity level. The natural palce for me would be within the drum synth (if it has a built-in mixer) or within the DAW (if I route the pieces from the drum VST to individual audio tracks).
Or do you want to have more control within BiaB itself? I was assuming that anyone who cares so much about the sound will do the mix in a DAW.
Masi
Band-in-a-Box, BiaB-plugin, Reaper, Win10 64bit, i7-8565U, 24GB RAM (always latest versions)
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,173
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,173 |
Did I read correctly that you are using TTS1 for drums. If so why there are many drum VSTi’s out there. Either way if you are using a DAW to mix then it is normally a very simple process the select the kick and reduce the velocity. To select the kick (or whatever note) is often just a matter of clicking or right clicking on the piano keyboard represented on the piano roll view in most DAWs. Then pulling down the offending note.
Most DAWs also have humanise option that sets individual levels for velocity. In a halfway reasonable VSTi a drum kit can be set up to the levels and tones you like before applying the MIDI data. I use Addictive Drums 2 or even Cakewalks (Digital Sound Factories) Session Drummer 3 and the choices are endless.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
My thoughts
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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Joined: Nov 2012
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If ever there was a poster who really should include his BBox version (if not more specs) in his profile info, I haven't seen one yet.
Case in point: Just how old is your BBox if you think it's impossible to tweak velocity levels of specific notes (or get rid of them entirely, for that matter) unless it's on the Melody/Soloist track?? Because,let me tell you, with the Piano Roll, you absolutely can!
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
The TTS 1 has a flaw with the default kick. It's stuck at a velocity of 127 which is why it's so loud. Years ago Biab added a popup when you first use it that says "Change default kick drum from part 34 to 35? (not sure about the exact number). Whatever it is just say yes. The TTS 1 is over 20 years old and Roland has never fixed that. That's what you get with a freebie.
As for the question in general regarding midi instrument or individual drum kit parts volume levels, they can either be controlled with the plugin or the Biab piano roll.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 457
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 457 |
I wasn't getting the too-loud kick in TTS-1, at first at least. I was getting it in BiaB. In fact, I've found more often than not that TTS-1 actually brings down the loudness of the kick to more bearable levels much of the time, but not all of the time. I wasn't aware of the kick being stuck on 127 in TTS-1, so I went and had a look at a couple of my files with MIDI drums. Yep, well, one of them did. But the curious thing about it is, it also had a section where the kick had been reduced, and you know what? I couldn't hear any volume difference. So I dunno what's up with that. But as long as it isn't letting things get out of hand, I'm fine with that.
I realize there are lots of VSTs out there that are better than TTS-1, but as a GM synth, it works very well for initial playback and tuning of pieces that I've translated over from BiaB. In most cases, if I've liked the drum patterns I found in BiaB, I didn't mess with them in CW unless I felt that a volume adjustment was necessary. I've found the sets available in TTS-1 to be adequate for my needs. I do have a few drum and percussion VSTs, and I've used them a few times, but most of the time I haven't felt them to be necessary.
Plus, right now, until I upgrade my machine, I'm having to be cognizant of the overhead caused by the addition of each VST. I'm on the ragged edge of functionality right now with my 11-year-old box. It's been a good machine, but I'm afraid the time for its retirement has come.
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
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I wasn't getting the too-loud kick in TTS-1, at first at least. I was getting it in BiaB. In fact, I've found more often than not that TTS-1 actually brings down the loudness of the kick to more bearable levels much of the time, but not all of the time. Sounds like your Normalize Midi prefs may be at play here. See if turning that of/on makes things better or worse. Maybe by finding the sweet spot upper limit might help. I'm on the ragged edge of functionality right now with my 11-year-old box. It's been a good machine, but I'm afraid the time for its retirement has come. If by that you're inferring that your version of BBox is equally old, then that will explain a great deal 
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
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The overall question about midi volumes has nothing to do with Biab or any other midi playback program. When someone creates a midi file they obviously have to use a synth to hear what they're doing. They will balance the parts according to that synth and it sounds good TO THEM. You as a user may not have the same synth that was used to create the file and even if you did what sounded great to the original creator of that file may not be how you want to hear it. If you're using a GM synth one of the big differences between GM synths is how they balanced the individual instruments. The TTS 1 did it their way, Ketron does it their way, etc. Rebalancing all that is up to the user and especially with midi drum kits. They can be all over the place and what you pay for with a midi drum synth module other than the sounds themselves is the midi control they give you. Not all midi editing features are the same, far from it. Biab gives you some control but it's really the synth you're using that's the most important part of this.
Biab is based on GM and it gives you the basic framework of your song and sounds but it's up to you to take that and customize it however you want. It's not simply plug and pray.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I haven't used TTS-1 in a long time but if I remember correctly you could modify a patch then save it in the user section. Thus you could lower the kick drum volume and safe it, then later use that kit in your song(s). YMMV
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I remember trying that and it didn't work. It was said by someone that this was a flaw in the TTS 1, the default kick drum was locked at a velocity of 127 which is why a Biab patch came out giving you the option to click Yes to that popup question to change the kick drum number.
This is different from taking a midi file that was created using the TTS 1 and loading it into a DAW and using a different drum synth. Doing that you can change that kick drum to whatever value you want. But, the other side of that coin, you take a midi file and play it with the TTS 1 the kick is locked at 127 regardless of what the Event Editor says the velocities should be. All you can do then is change the kick drum. Biab simply automated that with the popup.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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