PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Win 10 forced updates - any plan on going to Linux?

Having worked with various IT departments, and been at the receiving end of either poor IT practices, or failure of IT to follow their own procedures, I can assure you that all IT groups are not created equal. Having been at the mercy of of MS patches not properly vetted by the responsible group prior to distribution (e.g., SharePoint), time and money are key impacts.

The point: Many (if not most) home users are not in the business of vetting OS patches (or applications for that matter). So yes, it behooves the home user to become as informed as possible on good backup/restoration practices. But flawed/problematic updates are often beyond what the home user has at their disposal to deal with. I don't mean that as an insult to the home user, but rather as what the situation is.

A quick aside: When the home computer users are eventually forced to download software apps each time to use them (i.e., like the main frame days), and pay a monthly/yearly subscription fee (Office 365 and others), the user will be faced with a crossroads situation. Granted, many large corporations/companies have "leased" software and support for years, but a quick analogy: Does one want to buy a tool and use it, or rent it ad infinitum at a higher overall cost.

Jazz Mammal,
Concerning the data breaches, how many people do you know that were harmed and got just compensation? Just sayin'...

Hi Rich, nothing is perfect especially if it concerns computers and the internet. I get my info form the IT company who handles our system at a CPA firm. Federal law makes us partially responsible if there's a data breach that affects clients. We have to have a data security plan available for inspection by the IRS. Since I'm an Enrolled Agent licensed by the IRS and I also have private clients this applies to me at home as well.

1. Win 10. Anything older is a useless POS.
2. ALL updates must be current.
3. Use Defender, nothing else because it's integrated
into the OS.

This is just the beginning, the 8 hour tax update seminar I attended last December spent 45 minutes going over all the stuff I should be doing.

New hardware is part of this. New CPU's and mobo's are built with security in mind, the latest Win 10 updates will patch an older system but not close to what those same updates do with a new system.

Win 7 is a joke now, you should think of computers in dog years. A 10 year old PC is like 70 years old in the real world.

When someone says an update locked up their machine all day that tells me it's probably a 3rd party AV software problem. Dump it and use Defender, problem solved.

Over the last 15 years or so I've had a half dozen PC's running this music software with very few issues. All bone stock and fully updated OS installs. The worst problems were caused by a bad power supply nothing to do with the OS or updates.

Of course YMMV.

Bob

Hi Jazzmamal (Bob)

Not disagreeing with most of what you wrote. I have enough experience in the computer, realtime, data processing and system design/development (going back to even the teletype and core memory days (not quite to Eniac), to HPC Super Computer environments to misperceive that anything in the computer world (or otherwise) is perfect. But, a software app or system is only a joke if it cannot perform the required task and meet the user's requirements. Some of the software I still use (e.g., SONAR (versions 5 and X1 as well as several associated plugins/apps, etc.) work quite well on platforms prior to Windows 10. I have no need to abandon those apps, as they perform as I require them to (sorry about the long winded rebuttal to your Windows 7 assessment).

My point here is that some of the older versions of software perform better than the latest major versions (if in fact there are newer versions). Some of those apps run well on Windows 7, but may not run, or may run poorly on Windows 10. I tend to go with what works for me. Lastly, those vintage systems don't need to be on-line. Any data transferred to another system is thoroughly checked (nothing is perfect though). In the old days, one could hardware-write-protect hard-drives and silos, where you had to physically be at the system to write enable them (that's another era). But consumer hardware (e.g. our PC's) are inherently vulnerable from the software right down to the CPU's.

In your environment (tax preparation), most of the corporate level tax preparation and associated accounting programs will require (as you state) the latest, patched versions of the hosting system/OS for legal, regulatory and compatibility reasons. Understood.

My previous comment referred to people harmed (financially) by data breaches and not receiving just compensation. Those responsible for the data breaches as you accurately point out are "partially" responsible (recall Equifax, the IRS, Office of Personnel Management (OPM), and other firms/organizations had up to 6 months to notify those affected). Even then, the offer of some lame, fly-by-night Identity Protection Service for a limited time period was the only compensation. That's the (bad) joke.

And you are right..."Nothing is Perfect"...not Windows 7, not Windows 10.

Best wishes during the tax season,

Rich

P.S. I expect this thread will soon be archived to the dungeon.

Ooh ... Very subjective. :-)

Personally(!) I've far far more problems on Win10 than Win7.

This is also very subjective: Personally I abhor the interface, though it's perhaps better than Win8/8.1.

For the record I have and still occasionally use Win2k, Win7 (twice: once dual-boot, once in a VirtualBox), Win8.1 (updated from Win8) and Win10. I have eight PCs, all running Linux as their primary OS, mostly Ubuntu, but my music-studio PC runs AVLinux (only).

Having revisited BIAB(2013!), with a larger screen, I'm feeling more comfortable with it and might consider getting a recent copy, but I really want to run it on that studio PC, though I might just accept the 10" notepad if I can make it useable enough.

_If_ BIAB will run reliably as a VST on AVLinux, I'd seriously consider that new version, but as it stands, if I have to get a new laptop, with it's own Win10 just for BIAB, particularly as I'd want to use it mostly via a Focusrite Saffire so it would also need Firewire or Thunderbolt, I really can't see me being prepared to part with the cash that would entail.

I get that and everybody's home set up is different but...when we post on a forum like this answers and general info tends to be exactly that, general. It's for the majority which is really 51% or higher. Generally speaking, average computer users should be doing exactly what I described. Newer mid range or better hardware running a fully updated Win 10 system. That puts you in the $800-$1,000 range. No mods, no tweaks. In 15 years, I've never had all the weird problems some report on these forums.

Of course now to make me look like an idiot I just got a notification about how the latest update from last week can delete your entire desktop on some systems. Lovely, ain't that great! Didn't happen to me but still...It's not really deleted, the fix is to uninstall the update and your desktop is restored but can you imagine what's going through someone's mind when they see that?

No free lunch in this world, all we can do is be informed and deal with it.

Bob

Sadly the fix seems to vary and sometimes, allegedly at least, there is no fix ... it's really lost.

I haven't had that either, fingers crossed, but I have a couple of friends who have.

On the whole, I agree with you. I also don't advocate 'clever' tweaks preferring plain vanilla, other than that I almost always turn off all of Windows own 'bling'. I don't have the patience to wait for fancy sliding menus, smooth opening windows and the like, and I detest spurious beeps, boops and jingles _especially_ though a PA or monitors.

I use a PCB CAD package as part of my semi-retired day job and it sometimes seems like every week there's some new Win10 update that's broken something else in it ... things that have worked fine for years. There are workarounds, but some are just a nuisance. Win7 didn't do that. Win2k didn't do that.



Indeed.

“Ours is not to wonder why. Ours is just to do or die.” ― Alfred Lord Tennyson

Gordon.

In my working days even before Win10 we had a team of 5 or so specialists that spent weeks going over updates before they were deployed. Yep well before Win10 there were updates being sent out second Tuesday or Wednesday (in Australia) every month. Rarely did we have issues.

These days I just let Win10 do it’s thing so far I’ve been very lucky. But most of the machines that people ask me to look at have either been modified, infected, or neglected maybe tweaked by some “expert”. That is not to say my devices won’t break but I feel there is little choice.

I rarely if ever update both my Win10 devices in the same week. I have my desktop that gets all. Then usually a week or so later (when I’m getting ready to play somewhere) I update the machine I use on stage. I also at that time transfer any songs I’ve changed in the month and put the gig together.

And don’t kid yourself that a Linux box is indestructible. In my good old days I would have to help folks with various Linux and Unix flavours. But I’m past all that now and I sleep better (talk to myself a bit but sleep better I think).

I have a "vintage" 2011 Dell laptop running Windows 7 Home Edition. In 2016 or so, the Microsoft application that looked at your hardware and reported if your computer qualified for the free upgrade to Windows 10 disqualified this computer because the hardware was obsolete.

After Microsoft support for Windows 7 ended I saw +++ THIS +++ ZD Net article and decided to try updating once again. The computer is running build 1909 Windows 10 Home Edition with no issues.

I did a few things to prepare the laptop. I recovered some storage space by deleting unwanted programs, temporary files and downloads. I ran the trim command on the solid state drive (SSD). I used multiple utility programs to make sure all laptop hardware drivers were up to date. Finally I created a Microsoft Live account.

I used the Windows Media Creator (WMC) utility program and a 16 gigabyte USB memory stick to create a bootable build 1909 Windows 10 Home image.

I enabled the boot from USB option in the laptop bios settings. (Yes the laptop is so old it has bios instead of UEFI).

I inserted the USB memory stick and restarted. The boot program asks you to select if you want a "fresh" install (that deletes files and formats the storage drive) or to keep existing files and settings. I selected to keep files and settings.

The last step in the update is to enter a 26 digit product code or obtain a digital license. I provided my Microsoft Live user name and password and the install was verified with a digital license.

I haven't noticed any difference in performance and all the old programs I've tested so far work. My only complaints are I don't like the looks of Windows 10 as compared to Windows 7 and I don't like the solitaire program included with Windows 10.

Of course they didn't because it was the wild, wild west with those old OS's. There were hacked copies of Win2K and Win 7 easily available for anybody to use. My nephew was a teenage hacker who had his copy and I had a guy I met at a computer show build me a new box 15 or so years ago with a hacked copy of Win 7. My nephew is now making about 150K with Citibank as an IT manager. I bought him a legal copy of Win2K so he could get his certs going.

The thing that so many people don't get is data breaches are not just some kid sitting in his mothers basement, they're highly organized international crime syndicates, many government backed by Russia, China, N. Korea etc. We're talking about billions and billions of dollars. MS decided the only way to get a handle on this was to control the OS as much as possible. That's why they're constantly pushing people to upgrade to Win 10. They have no control over older OS's, too many unauthorized copies around. The overarching reason for all these updates is security. Even if any one of us is highly unlikely to be targeted or affected individually, globally it's a huge problem.

It's similar to this Coronavirus thing. It's affected just a tiny fraction of the number of people who have died from the flu each year yet the whole world is in a panic over this. Why? Nobody has a good handle on it yet, China is fudging their numbers and you can't trust them anyway so everybody is freaking out.

Same thing is going on with computer viruses and malware. The difference is those don't have the potential to literally kill you but financially they're a very big deal. MS isn't concerned with any one individual's PC, it's the worldwide ecosystem of PC's and stopping the spread of these very sophisticated little effing pieces of software criminals keep coming up with.

You'll never stop some systems getting infected because certain otherwise very smart people are stupid when it comes to this. They use "password", "12345" and crap like that for passwords. They click on very clever email links that fool people who are not paying attention to what the email url looks like. So some systems are always going to get infected, the question is how to stop it from spreading?

To me, we all need to do our small part, only go online with Win 10 and let MS do their thing with updates. Yes, they might mess with software that is important to you. Well, getting a flu shot every year messes with some people too but overall it's very necessary.

Bob

Hmm, yes, OK, point taken.

I'm sensible, well behaved and security aware, but there are severe threats and there are idiots.

Back somewhere around year 2000 we learned that our company had inadvertently made our full list of usernames and passwords publicly accessible in an encrypted file. It took only half an hour to decrypt that file. There were lots of stupid passwords, including that of the then financial director, whose password was his surname.

I hadn't intended this to become an OS advocacy thing, so I'll stop here on OSs.



I will add that I've just bought a copy of 2020 to try.

I'm running it at present in VirtualBox on a Linux host and it seems to be running just fine. I do not yet have USB/MIDI through to the VirtualBox, which might prove to be an issue, but it's too early to say.

I plan also to try the VST running inside a Linux VST host. I'm encouraged enough by what I've seen so far that I'll put some effort into it if needed.

The other thing I'll add is that 2020 addresses well my main complaint with the 2013 on which I gave up ... the interface is now clean, tidy and no longer overwhelming.

Good job guys.

Even if I don't succeed with BIAB somehow on Linux, I think I'd be comfortable using the new interface even on that notepad computer ... good grief, have I really had that notepad since at least 2013?

Yeah, I think we've covered the OS thing enough, haha.

I just noticed this is your 5th post here so welcome to the forum Gordon. You're very well informed so keep posting, this is one of the best music forums anywhere. Interesting you've got Biab running using Virtualbox. I've read about Linux but never got into it. Keep us informed about that.

Bob

Fifth post since 2015 ... Hmm, tardy :-)

I've learned that BIAB uses the VST3 standard, which is only really in Beta on Linux at present, so I'll likely wait a while for things to settle.

So far I've failed to get a proper connection between USB and the VirtualBox, which is a well known frustration, though it's supposed to be doable ... work in progress. There also appears no clean interface with the Jack Audio Connection Kit, which rather ties the hands at getting BIAB talking with anything much else under Linux.

I have a DIN-MIDI to USB adaptor, so could send MIDI to two separate PCs, but then I likely end up with that notepad PC plus a USB audio interface feeding into the mixer. All of the rest of my setup is in the 19" rack, so that would be a shame ... I'm trying to reduce the number of boxes, not increase it. Ho Hum.

Ah, actually BIAB also offers VST2, which I believe is well supported via LinVst.

Wise man, alas a lot of DAW and VST software houses are dropping all Windows versions except 10.

I had bought an 64bit LTSB W10 (2016 - enterprise stripped) version alas dropped by microsuck recently.

Very very stable, almost Win2000 like. Then it didn't work with the latest NVDIA installers, so i went ' back' to Win10 Pro.
Nothing but problems due them friggin' updates. Even Windows Update Switch 2 didn't save my [*****].

Reinstalled my old LTSB boot partition again, updated the drivers and installed those NVDIA drivers manually.
It works, no friggin' bloatware, no Edge, no Cortana and all that telemetry buls**t.
At times i use Take Ownership in the Program Data and documents/users folders for permissions installation issues.
Alas that screws up the junctions in Application Data.

I use 360 Total Security premium, mainly because of their manual windows patch updating for security kbs.
And Privatefirewall plus some 3rd party PUP remover tools etc. Palemoon or Firefox with Ublock.
Edited the hosts file with a lot of unwanted sites from a listing.

I sometimes wonder if MAC users face all this trouble just to have a working computer.

BTW after the LTSB reinstallation, Q360 said there were no patches needed, lucky me.

On my laptop i had a bought legal 8.1 enterprise running, 5 years without problems, but windows update screwed that up.
Telling me that my officially bought license was not valid all of a sudden.

1 hour on the phone and all the microsuck guy said after letting him remotely control this laptop was,
that he could only arrange for my original 8.0 license was conversion to Win 10 pro. But i needed to reinstall all new from scratch.

PS i bought some expensive office version (365?) from MS, a while back for ' upgrading' from Office 2003.
Only problems, with 2 bought licenses.
Now on free Libre Office, perfect, no updates or licensing sh*t.

Fiddler,

Valid point about current DAWs, VSTs waning support for Windows 7. In my case, Cakewalk's SONAR version 5 (running on XP Pro) and SONAR X1 running on Win 7, and all the other support software, soft synths, etc., does more than I need it to do. I have the latest version of Studio One (a nice DAW) on a stock Windows 10 box, but don't use it for any of my own work...just there to help a few friends out.

Some drawbacks to many of the newer DAWs and earlier versions of some (e.g., Cubase, ProTools, etc.): Even after you register and activate your software, the "phone home" function sporadically validates your license via a USB fob and/or embedded software… internet connection is required. And if the company goes out of business or modifies their license agreement, and then your USB based license fob fails, you now have a brick. Three reasons I stuck with SONAR: (1) It works very well for me; (2) they had a very reasonable license and use agreement, and (3) good customer support, updates, and after installation, I never had to do anything else to keep using SONAR...not required to be on-line, no intrusive telemetry, nothing. I know SONAR is back, having been resurrected by a company in the far-east, but I have no experience with them. Cakewalk's earlier demise was having been bought out twice by two different companies that...you know the rest.

For me, the soft synths I have are quite good, but I usually record/create my own midi files and route them through either my Yamaha Motif keyboard or Yamaha Rack synth, both of which have amazing sounds and are configurable in many ways. With the high cost of many of the soft synths these days, it would be more economical for me to buy another hardware synth if I needed more features, sounds, etc. (and the better ones are upgradeable with more/improved voices, etc. that can be purchased separately). For my guitars with synth capability, and my keyboards, I record both the analog and midi. Capturing and printing the notation then becomes especially easy (since I am neither a great or efficient transcriber).

Windows 10: The previous major update (Features 1903), did not go well (read the Win 10 forums). The current major update (1909) includes 1903. I and others still have the same and more issues. Familiar scenario: Update downloads, Installs, then upon the Microsoft induced reboots to complete the update, in the "working on updates" stage, you get the several hours of stuck at 90% . 14 hours at 90% is ridiculous. I have had to back out both updates more than once to get back to an operational system. Not a quick endeavor. For those disbelievers, buckle up, the ride will get bumpier in the future. And while you’re at it (pun intended), make sure to get your home "upgraded" to a "Smart Home".

Regards,
Richard

I am the OP. i Finally figured out why my Win7 updates were taking like 2+ days. My Internet download speed was 7Mbps and I always thought this speed was pretty good (most downloads seemed okay to me). Now that (I have my first reason to apply all the updates and I am as of this morning running at 520Mbps) I am doing the updates. On my laptop it took 2.5 hours. On my Desktop I figure 1.25 hours (still running). Now that is reasonable for such a large catch up.


So Microsoft might have been a bit smarter to test the download speed and provide a popup if it is slow. The popup would have some suggestions.

Windows 11 is two months old and you're wanting to go back to 2018 and talk about about Windows 7?

Hint: check your audio drivers and power settings. Microsoft makes sure to inject some variability into your life.

Wow! June 2018. How time flies when one is having sooooooooooooooo much fun :-) It seems like Yesterday.

The BIAB system requirements say BIAB 2022 runs on Win7 and if they say it does it should. Reaper is supported back to Win Xp. Cakewalk does not support Win7 but I found no bugs so far running it under Win7 while doing everything I need which is admittedly not that taxing on a DAW (yet).

Regarding BIAB saying it runs on Win7 so far so good except the VST Plugin has bugs both running under Reaper and Cakewalk. The standalone Plugin also has issues. I give odds of 90% the BIAB Plugin bugs have nothing to do with Win7 (10% odds I could be wrong). For example maybe it is me. I am new to the plugin and maybe it has some quirks I do not know how to work around yet. I have a series of emails with PGmusic going on this issue. Having said that it is pretty close to being able to do what I am after. It gets the chord labels into a Reaper Midi track perfectly. However getting the chords from BIAB into the Plugin has issues (I have to clean up beyond the chorus and if the chorus size is unusual part way into the end of the chorus).

My preference (as the creator of BIAB backing tracks for my Jazz Jam Club member participants) is not to bother with a watered down plug in at all. Instead use all the power BIAB has to offer (great program) and export the tracks as I have been doing but add in the added feature of the ability to export chord and section labels as well that are formatted for whatever DAWs the user uses with a simple checkbox to switch it on. In my case I would switch on Reaper and Audacity (section labels and chord labels for both). However maybe a new club member could be using whatever DAW and I could be creating these for 5+ DAWs. I have no way to predict so the more the better.