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On just the topic of mMaj7 chords, I use this chord type all the time in Brazilian jazz. It has always worked correctly for many years.
In the very early days of RealTracks, however, I would sometimes have a piano part simply drop out on this chord, but when I reported it, a patch was issued.
About the other issues raised, I have some testing to do before commenting further. I am skeptical about some of what I’ve read.
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This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast. Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord. Bob
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Pipeline
You are in the know!
If we would treat the “mother” chord for stylemaker as mixolydian, then you could easily define all chords that biab displays as some alteration of the mother chord. We would have to treat mixolydian as Herbie Hancock does in Maiden Voyage: all the scale notes are possible! (As Marl Levine points out in the Jazz Piano Book)
The only things to watch out for are the (real) avoid notes: the third for sus chords and for phrygian, the b6 in minor chords, the unaltered 4th in major.
Passing tones could be macro notes: if next note is a whole step up, then insert chromatic below... if next note is a half step above, then insert chromatic (or scale tone) above the next tone.
What to do with “out” notes? I wouldn’t know.
There’s only three scales (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor) and two symmetrical scales to consider. And in harmonic and melodic minor a few of the modes aren’t really used.
I can’t see any chord in biab’s chord list not fitting the 21 possible scale chords (three most important scales) or the 2 symmetrical ones.
As long as bass and piano/guitar stick to scale tones and passing tones, you should be good. If you really want a specific voicing, use midi. So, if on C7alt the bass plays b9 or #9, that’s not really important. It fits the scale of the moment.
You could add the augmented scale, but I truly believe it’s not a scale that is used in composing, as much as it is an improvisational thing.
Thx for the reply and your wonderful work on reaper plugin.
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/26/19 07:31 PM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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The solution might lie just around the corner.
The bass player is illiterate, plays b7 on mMaj7, a natural 9 on a b9 chord...
The piano player is often right!
As Jazzmammal suggested, there is something with the styles.
If you pick any style, the bass part only knows 7 seventh chords!
But, in some styles, the piano player is like Guitar George: he knows all the chords.
So, where can we find the culprit?
The riff option
In some styles, where the piano player “nails” it, you could see that the “riff” option is checked.
File>Stylemaker>Edit current Style
In stylemaker: Style>Misc. Settings check the box that says “Riff” voicing type uses chord tones.
The pop up text goes like this: Riff voicing is an option... To do a simple transpose (ignoring chord type) deselect this. (!?&#€”****).
More important: guitar and piano MACRO NOTES
If the guitar and piano are getting it right... check the style patterns. They were made using MACRO notes. These play the chords nicely and are not confined to seven 7th chords!
Still... the bass player is not affected by this setting. Since most styles have simple bass lines (root and 5th) it goes unnoticed. But some nice walking bass lines reveal the tone deafness of the bass part. To the point of clashing regularly with the piano and guitar part!
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 12:18 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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I got it figured out, now!
Biab Styles know NO complex chords
Not even mMaj7 or a b9
for Piano/Guitar most styles use MACRO NOTES
MACRO NOTES know ALL the chords
since Bass has NO MACRO NOTES, it uses the style parameter: u guessed it
7 seventh chords only!
Not even mMaj7 or a b9
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 01:47 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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OK, I'll bite. What are Macro Notes?
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Just for fun, let me ask another question. DZjang, is your BIAB up to date?
Within the last year there was an update to RealTracks that fixed a number of instances of the bass not playing slash roots. I don't know what else may have been changed, so I'm just checking if you are running the latest. I didn't see this mentioned. Thanks.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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He's focused strictly on midi right now, not interested in the RT's.
The Macro notes are a parameter inside the Stylemaker that Jan discovered controls the chords for the chording instruments but not the bass.
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This is very interesting. So what you are saying, at least in this case, is that the only way to get a CmMaj7 is via the chord builder. This could be a game changer for me. I will mess around with other chords as time permits, i.e. we still have family visiting from the west coast. Well that's what I thought I was saying but now I just created a new song and inputted a Cmmaj7 (just like this, I didn't even capitalize the second m) and it took it just fine. I swear in the first test song it wouldn't take it. Who knows, but it looks like Matt is right as usual. No problem inputting that chord. Bob I just inputted CmMaj7 and Cmmaj7. When I typed Cmmaj7 is showed up on the chord sheet as CmMaj7! However in both cases the correct chord was played. I have used CmMaj7 many times with no problems. YMMV
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MIDI only? OK, thanks, Bob.
Anyone who has odd things happen with chord data entry should first check if there are any user-defined entries in this file: /BB/Dada/pgshortc.txt
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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If anyone wants to know how bad the midi styles work.
Here’s an easy one
Make a new style
Every note has to fit C7, says Pgmusic.
Ok, let.s make bass notes root 5-b7-9 and reverse but starting on the root: so: root-(up)9-(downward from here)-b7-5
Make at least one 8 beats-pattern, one 4 beats, two beats, one beat is too short...
Do the same with B-part
Enter some piano,chords. Let’s say, rootless Bill Evans, old but not stale. Play 3-b7 in your left and 2-5 in your right hand and switch it up a little.you can click them on the staff or record them, keep it simple.
Do the same for the 4 beat, 2 beat patterns, make at least one pattern here and
Do the same for B
Enter a strings arpeggio: mix the notes of “root-3-5-b7-9”. Make it musical, but stick to these notes.
Save your style as r2357 or a name like that.
Make a lead sheet with the following chords:
Cmaj7 (2 bars, 1 bar, 1 bar)
CmMaj7 (same, you can change it if you like to 1 bar, 2 bars, 1 bar)
C13b9 (same)
C7alt
Listen closely to what biab presents to you. You will see that bass AND piano part play a bunch of downright wrong notes. It will make you rather sad, possibly angry.
Now do the same lead sheet with dizzy style or a bebop walking bass style. You’ll see a different pattern. The bass player plays a lot of wrong notes, but the piano player does a great job.
If you check the style maker you won’t see voicings but singlenotes: MACRO NOTES.
I ve learned a lot by trying all of this.
And I remain truly disappointed in biab, a software I have been using and buying and LOVING since the nineties.
Though the realtracks are often sublime (though more than a little old fashioned, as if Kind Of Blue was the last jazz record...), I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed.
Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed.
Last edited by Dzjang; 07/27/19 09:10 AM.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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... snip ... I truly believe that midi is more flexible from the users’ standpoint. No manufacturer can supply you with all possible styles. But you can easily make your own or tweak them. Can’t do that with realtracks... moreover, you could get great styles from specialists like Bob Norton or exchange styles with other users.
And, with all these great plugins in Kontakt, UVI and sampletank, I am convinced that there is going to be a MIDI revival. Especially for acoustic music, jazz, folk, country, blues. If you use Bob Norton’s styles on Microsoft Gm wavetable, you ask yourself: what’s the big deal. Hook them up to Kontakt or Sampletank and be ready to be blown away. Now they sound way better than a lot of stock styles.
My MIDI revival claim sounds off? Make a leadsheet with slow moving chord changes. Use an acoustic guitar and drum plugin, a quality one... Select Oregon-styles. Press play. Be amazed.
Not entertained yet? Lower the velocities of the oregon styles. Try again. Be amazed. I agree 100 percent. PG Music had not paid much attention to midi lately however 35 new midi styles were released with +++ Xtra Styles PAK # 5 +++ in July, 2018. One of the strengths of Band-in-a-Box is it allows you to work with audio, midi and loops in addition to it's collection of styles, RealTracks and Super Midi Tracks.
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A bit lost by the recent treads but I love the midi-love being expressed.
To my understanding the ability to play chord extensions is related to the midi-style selected. Piano and guitar can play the many extensions accurately only if the style includes Chord Notes. However, this option is not available for bass or the other non-chordal instruments. Does that summarize the current findings?
So Dzjang can you restate the wish? What exactly do you want BIAB to do?
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Hey Musicstudent, for piano and guitar, you don’t input notes in the style maker, but Macro Notes. Each of these macro notes refer to a playing style: for guitar it’s fast or slow strumming, rootless voicings or other.
This, of course limits the possibilities for the piano and guitar also. If you would like piano or guitar play only two notes, or an arpeggiated groove, that won’t work.
To summarize
Dear PGMusic
Could you please update the stylemaker or the style-machine so that styles can play all the chords that Biab can input on the chord window?
Best regards,
Jan
PS: open up the input on guitar, piano, strings et al... to include scale or chord based input. Limiting stylemakers to using macro notes is limiting.
PPS: users go through great lengths to input correct chords or buy packs like the New Real Books by Norton... at this time the Bass part is wrong (if the style includes 9ths and 7ths, like on RnB or jazz styles) if your song contains chords with altered ninths, mMaj7. NRB’s 1-2-3 are filled with intricate chords and this helps you progress as a player. Please, make it sound right.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Really nice detective work Jan. I knew this was related to the styles but I've never investigated exactly how that works. The Stylemaker has been available forever but I can name maybe 3 people who understand it and one of those is Bob Norton and another was Mac who hasn't posted here for 3-4 years. Otherwise nobody writes about it, it's probably the single most underused part of the program. Everybody simply uses the styles given to us and that's the end of it.
If these changes to the Stylemaker can be done and then applied to existing styles then by all means it should be done. Sadly, there's only a few midi jazz styles anyway, it should not be that hard to do.
Bob
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Don't really understand all of this and don't really want to get into deep programming of BIAB. But I am impressed with the content in this thread and very interested in where it can go.
So a big +1 from me.
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All, This is the first in a series of threads about updating the midi Stylemaker. +++ This +++ is a link to the second thread.
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Since there has been some debate over the (in)ability of Biab to correctly play jazz chords in midi styles... I now want to add some proof of the absurd and disturbing mistakes (bugs?) biab makes. To avoid needless discussion:I disabled “natural arrangement” in Preferences/Arrangement I turned off “simple bass” in Overrides For each instrument I turned off natural arrangement and embellishment Please, if you want to debate harmony.... Check if you’re familiar with diminished harmony or every mode of melodic minor or you know the difference between phrygian and phrygian natural 13. If you’re not familiar with it, that’s cool, but this discussion is really intended for intermediate or advanced players who like to practice and improve their playing. No offense. Piano bugshttps://www.dropbox.com/s/mrz7u3ceic3dgnn/PIANOPARTBRUBK.pdf?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/co371tn8w8f76uq/PIANOPARTBR300.pdf?dl=0Bass bugshttps://www.dropbox.com/s/3mia8zswdzmdo30/BRUBECKBALLADBASSPART.pdf?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/s1r7f68j8uiky7d/BASSPARTBRUSH300.pdf?dl=0So, why do I care? Biab could be the best tool to learn to reharmonize tunes. As the midi style player works today, it is really bad for practicing and improving your playing. Biab has potential for learning and teaching. Say you want to substitute II-V with Vsus4b9 (jazz piano book)... for now, biab doesn’t have the harmonic sophistication and just plays wrong. This makes the student uneasy and is unhelpful. It makes you sound bad even if you are right. Alternatives?Yamaha arrangers are the closest to “perfect” for amateur jazz musicians or students, harmony-wise. Since it has no notation or chord player like in Biab and it is really geared towards left hand harmony input (one touch chords...), it is not as good. Imagine being a trumpet player and freeing your left hand to play all the changes... None of the other softwares really know sus4b9. At least, biab gets it right sometimes.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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It's hard to argue with that evidence.
It appears that improvements are required.
+1
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
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Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
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