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I've happily posted works on the internet without any thought to officially registered copyright, membership in PRO's, formal publishing or any other such stuff above my place in the music business. Up to me, I'd continue to do so happily.
Lately, I've gone back to Fiverr looking for people to play a lead instrument on a chordal arrangement made in BIAB. I asked for something "melodic". Now, I know they give rights to commercial use and it is considered a "work for hire"...but this is about right and wrong, and not about "rights".
What if what they come up with is really uniquely "melodic" in the sense that it becomes "the song"? What if it is so coherent and beautiful that it could stand alone even without my "backing"? I truly hope that happens, and that it is not simply joining the harmony....if that makes sense.
There is, to my mind, a continuum between playing along and composing within limits where a collaborator/musician affects the outcome to such a degree that he/she ought to be considered a co-writer.
While I ponder that, I think I need to prepare for such contingencies to share in a more concrete "business" way not just credit but ownership.
But I don't have a clue how, even if I can figure out "when".
What do I need to do? If it's good advice, I might even start doing it for myself (and my back catalogue and collaborations).
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/27/20 02:22 PM.
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When people hire me to play on their tracks, I do a lot of preparation to build on what they already have, not introduce something that might warrant a co-write decision. I use their music to suggest the harmony, counterpoint, or even hook. I think that takes more skill than just doing my own thing.
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You are hiring a musician to perform on your session, in other words a session musician. Part of the agreement should be the musician receives money up front and in return signs away their rights to any audio they provide you.
One of the reasons people hire session musicians is to have access to their creativity. I've heard that most of the signature riffs you hear in popular music were created by session musicians "on demand". The producer says "we need something special" and they deliver time after time.
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Thanks, Matt. I'm assuming, though, when people hire you to play on their tracks, they have already written a melody. All I "wrote" was a chord progression. I suppose there is melody in there (even if it's just the root notes), but it's not coherent and beautiful.
Likely what I will get back is improv over chords. That's probably not "co-write" worthy. But it is possible that I'll get back something I can also do for myself--draw out a melody from the progression that stands alone and "becomes" the composition or the song. It's melody that is copyright-able, and rightly so. Nobody hums chords. And to my mind, regardless of whether or not they worked for hire, that is something worth recognizing.
Note: I'm speaking as a song-writer. The world of composition has never really been my world, and both law and custom may apply differently.
Jim. Yes, they sign away rights to audio. I can use it any way I see fit. But there remains that component on the continuum when a simple improv or lead-line becomes the piece itself. Not a riff. Not a phrase. The piece.
I'm not trying to protect myself here. I'm trying to do the right thing.
Anyway, answers that tell me how to do THIS will also inform me how to do it for solo works and other collaborations, past and future.
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/27/20 03:01 PM.
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Tangmo,
I understand your intent and where you're coming from. The law is one thing but what's right is another.
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Jim is correct. That's what session musicians get paid to do, there's no "agreement" per se, it's just an industry standard and it's always been done that way. It's a fair arguement that they should get some kind of royalty - in most countries, artists/producers/session musicians get a performance royalty, or "performance in a sound recording". The U.S. is one of a very small group of countries that does not pay that royalty. Efforts have been made, and continue to be made, to change this, but the radio broadcasters lobby is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the U.S. and they have thus far completely blocked that from happening. They should not, IMO, get a co-writer credit on the songs they play on however. If a session musician ever asked me for that, I would tell them (not very politely) to pack their gear and take a hike. They get paid a fee to perform a service - they get paid regardless if the song ever gets recorded, or becomes a hit, or not. They assume none of the risk, take on none of the responsibility of trying to get the song recorded, or played, etc. To get paid master or demo scale, and get writing credit on top of that, is double dipping and there's no way I would ever go along with that. It should be addressed in the performance in a sound recording, and that's not happening because of broadcasters. Watch a bit of the videos below of legendary session guitarist Reggie Young. He played some of the most iconic guitar licks in history, and he didn't get songwriter credit for any of them - never expected to. He DID argue later in life that they (studio musicians) should get a performance royalty, and I agree with that. But that's entirely different than writing credit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEkHO6jxjchttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-6zd-z1qm8
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Tangmo, no, none of the artists I played for gave me a song with no melody. A chord progression alone is not copyright-able so I suppose I would negotiate at this point, and depending on what results I might ask to be a co-writer. The song would not be finished enough without a melody for me to do my session work.
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Roger, I don't know how or if you collaborate and/or share song-writing credits but imagine this: Someone brings you a really nice, somewhat unusual chord progression and demos it strumming on acoustic for three minutes. You write a melody line for it. Would you not think it was reasonable that you get at least a share of the writer's credit? That's essentially what I've done...wrote a (hopefully) good progression. It's something beyond the usual, and because it is BIAB, it's something more produced and polished than a guitar strumming. My guy might spice up the progression with complimentary lines, licks, etc. Is he a co-writer? No. Neither is PGMusic or the players on RealTracks. He got paid and I got what I got. But my guy MIGHT write a beautiful, coherent, hummable melody from my progression that works as a complete piece of music on its own, even if it no longer needs my progression at all. Is he a co-writer? Forgetting what the law says...I think he is. My having paid him does not mean he is not. If music business lawyers need to get involved to justify their existence, we'd just call it an advance on future royalties.  Indeed, he may even turn out to be the primary writer. And I'm not the least bit sad about it! A good number of my songs have started this way...someone else's chord progression in a produced work (backing?) inspires my vocal melody. (on the music side of the write). I guarantee you, I think I'm co-writer of the music...but I'd NEVER EVER contest that if he thought differently. I would not have done MY bit if he had not does his. Again, song-writing and music composition may be two different worlds and models. I'm not trying to parse the two. I'm not trying to protect myself. I'm not trying to either follow or break custom. I'm just looking for coherent info on how to set up shop so I can do what I want.
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Seems like the only solution to your personal dilemma is for you to also write the melody lines and pay the 5er musicians to play the melody you wrote.
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I've been writing songs for a living since 1985, and have cowritten hundreds of songs with other writers during that time. All I'm telling you is what I've always done, what all of my peers have always done, and the general way the business has always been done, and provided the Reggie Young example.
If you feel morally compelled to give someone writer credit, knock yourself out. It's really that simple, it's your song-your choice. Over the years I've had artists record songs of mine and make changes to them (Trace Adkins & Ricky Van Shelton made substantial changes that I disagreed with) without asking for or receiving songwriter credit. I've also had artists/producers try to 'strong arm' me into giving them writing credit on songs that they've made no change to whatsoever, with the stated threat that if I don't, they won't record the song(s) - in which case I've always said no, usually in a pretty colorful manner. I've also had a substantial number of artists record songs of mine and copy the demo I produced, on more than one occasion note-for-note. The musicians who played the signature licks/solos didn't get writer credit, and I didn't get production credit on those projects either.
For me personally, if I sit down in a room with someone to write, and a song gets written during that time, they are a co-writer on it - doesn't matter if they don't have a word or a note in the song, my feeling has always been that I wouldn't have written what I wrote if that person hadn't been there...maybe they said or did something that spurred a thought. Not everyone does it that way, that's just me.
Bottom line is, if you genuinely feel the person in question made a substantial contribution to the WRITING of the song, by all means give them a piece of the writer credit. But understand there is a significant difference between WRITING and PRODUCTION. Coming up with a great solo, or intro, or turnaround, or ending; a grooving bass line or drum pattern; adding pushes, stops, or any dynamic movements - things like that are production, not songwriting - and it has been my experience, and is my opinion, that those do not warrant songwriting credit, unless the musician(s) in question are willing to waive their payment for playing on the project as side men.
Hope all that stuff clarifies what I was saying. Cheers.
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Thanks, Roger. You're not the first professional song-writer I've "talked" with and I value your perspective on all this. I actually agree with everything you said...especially the part about adding some color to a refusal to be strong-armed. I'll be happy to collaborate on vocabulary, but I have the feeling you've got it covered. What I will do is listen to my guy's contribution all by itself. If it sounds like a lead-line or improv over chords, he got paid and I am satisfied. If it sounds like a real coherent melody, then I'll decide and come up with a way to notate it. Hell, I may even post it like that for "comment". The real purpose of the thread, though, is to say I just feel like I've been playing in the internet sand-box for a long time and, even though I have no plans or any real dreams of turning "professional", I'd like to organize my "hobby" in a more professional manner. It can't hurt. And if it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, I'd just feel better about it and more willing to "reach out", if that makes sense.
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/28/20 06:09 AM.
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Seems like the only solution to your personal dilemma is for you to also write the melody lines and pay the 5er musicians to play the melody you wrote.
I laugh maniacally now, but one day it may still happen.
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I've been writing songs for a living since 1985, and have cowritten hundreds of songs with other writers during that time. All I'm telling you is what I've always done, what all of my peers have always done, and the general way the business has always been done, and provided the Reggie Young example.
If you feel morally compelled to give someone writer credit, knock yourself out. It's really that simple, it's your song-your choice. Over the years I've had artists record songs of mine and make changes to them (Trace Adkins & Ricky Van Shelton made substantial changes that I disagreed with) without asking for or receiving songwriter credit. I've also had artists/producers try to 'strong arm' me into giving them writing credit on songs that they've made no change to whatsoever, with the stated threat that if I don't, they won't record the song(s) - in which case I've always said no, usually in a pretty colorful manner. I've also had a substantial number of artists record songs of mine and copy the demo I produced, on more than one occasion note-for-note. The musicians who played the signature licks/solos didn't get writer credit, and I didn't get production credit on those projects either.
For me personally, if I sit down in a room with someone to write, and a song gets written during that time, they are a co-writer on it - doesn't matter if they don't have a word or a note in the song, my feeling has always been that I wouldn't have written what I wrote if that person hadn't been there...maybe they said or did something that spurred a thought. Not everyone does it that way, that's just me.
Bottom line is, if you genuinely feel the person in question made a substantial contribution to the WRITING of the song, by all means give them a piece of the writer credit. But understand there is a significant difference between WRITING and PRODUCTION. Coming up with a great solo, or intro, or turnaround, or ending; a grooving bass line or drum pattern; adding pushes, stops, or any dynamic movements - things like that are production, not songwriting - and it has been my experience, and is my opinion, that those do not warrant songwriting credit, unless the musician(s) in question are willing to waive their payment for playing on the project as side men.
Hope all that stuff clarifies what I was saying. Cheers. In the early days and I am sure even to today, people have forced people to add "writers" to their songs so they have to split the proceeds. They used to do it with Elvis' stuff all the time, basically if you wanted Elvis to record your song, you need to play ball etc. I agree with what you are saying here. Production choices etc. are not co-writing the song. I also agree that if the guy talking in a commercial get's paid every time it airs, the guys or girls playing the music should to and they still don't here in the US. Many songs that the "wrecking crew" folks played on would not have been what they were without their (the studio musicians) contributions so there should have been a way for them to get something other than union scale for their work, but that is the way it works still.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Watched the videos Roger linked. Just makes me that much more determined to do what's right. My fiverr guy will make more money than I will. But if he actually accomplishes what I asked for...
We'll see.
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Imagine a very-berry talented hairstylist will start shaving his/hers "logo" on customers heads...
...And then you apply for a 500K executive job and you win that bid.
Would the stylist be entitled to "royalty" because he perfected your "looks" that he/she might presume tipped the scale in your favor when you got the job?
I see it like this, if you like what you got, tip the performer or even better, spread the word about him/her.
P.S. Just having fun. Interesting discussion.
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Imagine, now, a very talented hairstylist using your head as a canvas to create a new logo and use pictures and video of it to turn his TM into a 500K asset. His money or yours? I offered my "head" and paid him for the "haircut" and if it turns into something beyond my real expectations...(fades out pondering).
*******************
The conundrum isn't whether or not to do it. Roger told me I could do it if I want to. So there.
It's more of a judgement call concerning WHEN I might want to do it. That depends on how far above it stands.
HOW! Now that's the real problem. If I want to and think it's right, HOW the hell do I do it in a (semi) professional manner?
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/28/20 03:10 PM.
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As to the how, you don't have a lot of options. If you're wanting (insisting) on giving songwriting credit to someone who may or may not be deserving of it, all you have to do is determine how much of your copyright (property) you would like to give away.
50%? 25%? More, or less? Totally up to you.
Just understand you will now be co-owners on a piece of intellectual property, in perpetuity. You can't do anything with the song without your co-writer's approval or blessing. A movie studio wants to put your song in a feature film, but your "cowriter" won't agree to the contract? It's dead in the water.
I applaud the moral position driving your thought process, but the business side of it doesn't make sense. One of my old publishers had a plaque on his desk that said "Emotion + Business = Big Mistakes".
I'll also say this, as someone who feeds his family by writing songs. If I were to make a melodic suggestion on your song, and you offered me co-writing credit, I wouldn't take it. Because I (and this is me personally) don't want my name on anything that I don't feel like I made a significant contribution to.
Follow your own conscience on this, I hope I'm not backseat driving. I just think you should have all the information to consider that you can get.
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Roger, thanks for that. What if the rights were assigned to a publishing company that I owned 100% of. Would my guy have a say in whether a not a piece was placed? I'm talking about the rights to the composition, no matter who recorded it...not necessarily the rights to the audio that will eventually likely make its way to the showcase here.
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/28/20 04:00 PM.
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Possibly, but there's no obligation (or real incentive) for the prospective cowriter to give you their share of the publishing. Again, once you give writing credit, you have given away property. In that scenario, if I'm the co-writer, there's no way I'd give you my publishing. The way the royalty structure on a song works, half of the revenue is the writer share and the other half is the publishing share. So on a 50/50 co-write, each writer's royalties are 25% of the total, the other 25% being the publishing share.
Asking someone to give you their publishing is asking them to relinquish half of their potential income. No way in hell I would do that.
Again, and I say this very respectfully....you're trying to be very kind and generous in a business setting - that's rarely a good move. It's called the music business, not music benevolence.
As I read what I've responded with to you, I recognize that some of it may come across as harsh or greedy....but when art and commerce intersect, it's a pretty big collision. For years and years, I had to swallow bitter pill after bitter pill because songwriters are, and always have been, the lowest rung on the music business ladder and consequently get stepped on the most. I've seen a lot of peers and friends make really bad business decisions that effected them for the rest of their lives. Perhaps I err too much on the side of "keeping what's yours", but it's because of how many repeated times I've seen songwriters duped in business dealings because it's our nature to consider what we do "art", when everyone else in the business views what we do as "commerce".
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Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAK Sets On Sale Now - Until May 15, 2026!
All of our XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs are on sale until May 15th, 2026!
It's the perfect time to expand your Band-in-a-Box® style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs. These additional styles for Band-in-a-Box® offer a wide range of genres designed to fit seamlessly into your projects. Each style is professionally arranged and mixed, helping enhance your songs while saving you time.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-10 includes 1,000 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 includes 3,700 styles (and 35 MIDI styles)!
The XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs are not included in any Band-in-a-Box® package.
The XPro Styles PAKs 1-10 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
The Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the Xtra Styles PAK Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version as they require the RealTracks included in the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box today with XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAK Sets!
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