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Joined: Oct 2008
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 734 |
Quote: I had to swallow bitter pill after bitter pill because songwriters are, and always have been, the lowest rung on the music business ladder and consequently get stepped on the most. I've seen a lot of peers and friends make really bad business decisions that effected them for the rest of their lives. Perhaps I err too much on the side of "keeping what's yours", but it's because of how many repeated times I've seen songwriters duped in business dealings because it's our nature to consider what we do "art", when everyone else in the business views what we do as "commerce".
This. Roger is correct. The people who want to be in the music business who end up most successful, if successful means able to earn a living (to some that is not the definition, but I digress) are usually the people who are good at both the music and the business.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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When you hire a musician in a work for hire agreement, the only "right thing" is that you own the music and the musician got paid and doesn't own it.
Great, great example: Carol Kaye. Most in demand bass player in session history. She is responsible for more iconic bass lines in the pop songs of the 60's that I care to list here.
Take the time to watch the documentary film The Wrecking Crew. In it she describes how she would go to a session and they would have charts for her. She would think they were boring and would often create her own lines. Nancy Sinatra's These Boots are Made for Walking.... that's Carol's bass line. Sonny & Cher, The Beach Boys, the Temptations..... all among her clients and all have classic bass lines that she invented on the spot for them. She got a paycheck and that's the end of it. She probably didn't get any credit on the album other than Bass: C.Kaye.
You have no obligation to even mention them. If you want to, you can.
And when it comes to myself....If I hire someone, and I have, they don't get any credit or share of the income from the commercial use I make of the song. All the publisher or library want to know from me is that I own 100% of the master rights and have signed agreements with any one else on the music and can legally represent the music in full.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Tangmo,
If you simply string together a chord progression and then try to rip off session musicians to put together a melody and claim it's your own, you are nothing more than a thief.
Either write a complete song and then hire session musicians to improvise around it or don't take other people's ideas and claim they're yours.
I can't believe this discussion has progressed to where it has without someone pointing that out for you. You know it's wrong or you wouldn't have asked the question.
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 303 |
Here's a famous example that illustrates this thread's topic. The band released this song a couple of years before the next two recordings. Paul wrote the majority of this song (contrary to what most think). He comes up with quite the chord change sequence after "went into a dream". (It's the "ah" part.) Paul threw in some notes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Dh-I0_m5Y "A Day In The Life" Beatles Joe South wrote quite a good rocker based on that chord sequence, adding some notes here and there, and a good beat. He sings "nah, nah, nah, nah". (See how he added the "n" to change things up!) Joe South was a brilliant songwriter (IMO), one of my favs. Paul was a brilliant songwriter, one of my favs. In addition, he was one of the two most famous (and powerful) songwriters in the world at that time. "Hush" is credited solely to Joe South. If any songwriter could ever have claimed copyright infringement due to a chord sequence, that would have been the time and the claimant. Here's Joe South's superior original (IMO) of "Hush" and the biggest cover hit by Deep Purple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M9se64HoTg "Hush" Joe South https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1PNvopXjbg "Hush" Deep Purple
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381 |
If anybody is interested, here's the "request" I made at Fiverr.
I'm looking for a flutist (or other wind instrument) familiar with, and competent in, the Byzantine scale for an approximately three minute piece harmonized to that scale in a hard-rock/metal setting. The piece is designed to show off the possibilities of the Byzantine scale, but I don't want endless scale runs. I'd like a coherent, melodic lead-line that uses only notes found in the scale and based off of chord tones. The enclosed sample is a rendering of the body of the piece. An intro may be added later if there is any interest at Fiverr. I'm not in a hurry and don't mind if you aren't either, if you understand the project.
Do I need to explain on a forum heavily populated with musicians the difference between a "melody" and a "melodic lead line"?
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/30/20 03:13 AM.
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Expert
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381 |
Tangmo,
If you simply string together a chord progression and then try to rip off session musicians to put together a melody and claim it's your own, you are nothing more than a thief.
Either write a complete song and then hire session musicians to improvise around it or don't take other people's ideas and claim they're yours.
I can't believe this discussion has progressed to where it has without someone pointing that out for you. You know it's wrong or you wouldn't have asked the question. I'll admit the first time I read that, I was pretty steamed. But I calmed down and thought about a little while. I thought to myself, 'Surely Bob could not have actually read my posts in this thread and come to the conclusion that I was intending to do any such thing. Indeed, it should have been obvious that I was trying to find out how to do the exact opposite of that. Therefor, logically, he must have some other reason for making a post that strongly appears to be an attempt to accuse, judge, and re-educate me.' ************************* I'm not an "OK, man...whatever" kinda hippy. I'm a sharp-tongued, clear-eyed, kick-[*****] kinda hippy. Being decent IS good business. I want to do the "right" thing so I can sleep at night. The facts are: IF my guy composes (even on the fly) an actual melody for this piece, HE is the one who should copyright it, and I (Tangmo) am the one who should be asking for a share. I could register all day, but I cannot claim ownership on anything but the MASTER--the recording. It would be the melody HE WROTE that even IS copyright-able. And if, all alone, it sounds like a melody (and maybe even if it doesn't) I'm going to tell HIM that. It doesn't matter what the law "allows". If it allows me to pay for a melody and claim credit...it also allows me to do differently. I am not properly set up to do either. It doesn't matter if he wrote a melody as a work-for-hire. In my position, I can tell the law to suck it. If you want to help me do that with links that discuss the current realities, so I can turn a hobby into an avocation, feel free. Google has not been helpful. Everything so far is either snippets attached to a service being sold, or so old that it mentions CDBaby still acting as a CD Wharehouse. I don't expect I'll find any info that suggests I do what I want...I'll settle for info that gives me the ammo necessary to do what I want.
Last edited by Tangmo; 05/30/20 05:24 AM.
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Tangmo.... your very next post puts you over 1000 posts.... nice milestone to hit.
Secondly.... do what you want with regard to credits on any album liners or whatever. Unless it's on an album, there's generally no place to give credit anyway.
Simply list the studio musicians on each song. Many of the albums I have did that. Guests that were not in the band would set in and play and they were given credit for their work. I have no clue what kind of agreement they signed but I can guarantee you this... they did sign an agreement and they stuck to the terms in it as far as ownership and pay.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2019
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Generally speaking, if a musician is paid a fee to play on a recording, it is a tacit waiving of ownership of a part of the song. It's double dipping otherwise.
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Tangmo,
I gave the whole thread a quick read through and I posted my thoughts about it. If you're looking for a debate then just keep on looking because I'm not interested in participating.
My initial response is the same as it is now. The impression I got is that you came up with a chord progression and wanted other people to play over it so you could take their ideas and flesh out a melody.
I couldn't possibly care less about what you do. Don't post things if you want to take issue with other people's responses when it's not what you want to hear.
Take care.
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