I think PG-Music needs to have an over view course web page for absolute beginners on this topic "making the melody track such that it does not turn people new to BIAB off". The beginner steps through the course topics in prerequisite sequence after they get the overview. If they think they know a topic they (don't drill down into the details but instead skip to the next topic). So as an example entering melodies could be a topic with two sub topics (manual notation entry and midi instrument playing entry). When I first got BIAB in 2012 I would process that topic but now I would skip that topic.
Part of the output section of the course should be "select Midi Super Track" rather than "Select Midi Instrument". I just tried this and to my ear some of the piano super tracks sound like real pianos a student would play. If I was forced to bet I would bet real instrument.
The course could have a sort criteria such as "low budget" "high budget" or "little time" or "endless learning time". I would chose "low budget" "Little Time" at present but that could change.
[ But there are a plethora of excellent third party sounds ranging from free to very expensive. I have a large library of them that I have collected over the years. Kontakt is my go to sound source for most of my sounds.
Peace and stay safe.
Here are a few at the top of my list which have all found a place in my music. I generally wait for a sale. So Mario, what are a couple at the top of your list?
The blue_street horns sound fantastic. Love it! I just testing all my horns and no hit me where these hit me. Be sure to holler when you see a sale or I will keep my eye on it and do the same. So you know of one on the horizon?? I definitely would like to get this into some of my music. Thanks for sharing, and glad I asked!
..."select Midi Super Track" rather than "Select Midi Instrument". I just tried this and to my ear some of the piano super tracks sound like real pianos a student would play. If I was forced to bet I would bet real instrument.
Yes and no. Yes, MST's are real musicians playing real keys, so you get all the timing and pressure nuances (i.e., articulations) of the artist. So this is the best of the front end. But the back end audio output is still the same (I assume GM) synth that plays all you BIAB midi. So you are hearing 50% optimized sound.
So no, you are not hearing a real instrument and would lose your bet. Rather you are still hearing the GM Sound Synth in BIAB (pianos can be very good in GM). This is a critical point to understand.
I will leave it up to others to further clarify or correct as needed. Hope I don't sound preachy. You appear to be traveling on a road upon which I have spent a lot of self discovery. So my intentions are good.
..."select Midi Super Track" rather than "Select Midi Instrument". I just tried this and to my ear some of the piano super tracks sound like real pianos a student would play. If I was forced to bet I would bet real instrument.
Yes and no. Yes, MST's are real musicians playing real keys, so you get all the timing and pressure nuances (i.e., articulations) of the artist. So this is the best of the front end. But the back end audio output is still the same (I assume GM) synth that plays all you BIAB midi. So you are hearing 50% optimized sound.
So no, you are not hearing a real instrument and would lose your bet. Rather you are still hearing the GM Sound Synth in BIAB (pianos can be very good in GM). This is a critical point to understand.
I will leave it up to others to further clarify or correct as needed. Hope I don't sound preachy. You appear to be traveling on a road upon which I have spent a lot of self discovery. So my intentions are good.
Dan
I get playing guitar or piano and sending midi signals out and recording it in the computer in midi (guitar triple play for example). So here (with the proper software) you can see your playing in notation. This is something I have considered doing but it has not been that high a priority so I never went down that path.
Regarding doing this yes more so in my 20s I could play most music that comes my way and I could record lift and probably learn to play it on a midi feed guitar and if I knew how might be able to get it in the BIAB melody track. However (for reasons I won't get into) this is not what I am after. I want to enter notation in BIAB and have it sound better than the current BIAB regular midi tracks which I gather are GM (general midi). Another way to put it. I want to avoid playing midi guitar or keyboard with all the timing problems it creates, having to fix this notation (having to simplify it or rewrite it which is a heck of a lot of work). Instead it is just a lot faster to know that timing and notes I want and enter the notation correctly the first time and as I said above if possible have it sound like a real instrument.
So here is the question. Are these virtual instrument products one can purchase ( https://indiginus.com/blue_street.html ) single note midi samplings that are picked up when notation is entered in BIAB? I ask this because I gather each note such as A 440 has a midi number and along with this there are other midi components that give it the real instrument quality.
The suggestions everyone are giving are great and I say thanks. However so many questions remain. In other words that course is missing.
Maybe this is the way to get that course I am talking about. I googled these two search strings ....#1 "how to make the band in a box midi melody tracks sound better" ....#2 "how to make the notation I enter into the band in a box midi melody track sound better".
These videos appear as though they should be part of this course (I THINK). If I knew for sure this would get me where I want to go I might trek down this path faster.
Here is another way to put it. Lets say I want the notation I enter to sound like a real sax playing simple notes (nothing fancy) rather than a fake sax. I would rather spend x amount of money, plug it in and its done rather than go out and try to create this sound myself not knowing if I can ever pull it off. Maybe I might want the notes to sound like bowed violin on one song and on another song sound like plucked violin and on another song sound like muted string plucked violin. Or maybe BIAB has a way using the bar settings to switch these real instrument midi sounds within the same song. Again, all part of this course I am suggesting (well I just tried that with the melody track and it worked). So here I might want part of the song violin bowed, another part violin plucked, another violin muted plucking. That at times may make it seem more real.
John, I think one of the points that others are making in their way is that MIDI has no sound at all. It is completely dependent upon the MIDI synth (hardware or software) you use. Choices are almost endless, as is budget.
So I'm not picking on you when I select this quote from your previous post: I want to enter notation in BIAB and have it sound better than the current BIAB regular midi tracks which I gather are GM (general midi)".
Any MIDI track - current, regular or whatever you call it - or PG Music's MIDI Super Tracks, makes a sound through the MIDI synth YOU use on YOUR system. Remember, MIDI has no sound. In addition to GM (General MIDI) sounds, there is GM2 supported by BIAB. Most MIDI synths will play those GM2 sounds, and they are almost always better, but the sound is only ever going to be as good as your choice MIDI synth. Then there are the dozens or great sound libraries that are not General MIDI compatible or GM2 compatible (or Yamaha's standard, either) and they can sound even better. All of those are indeed "single note samplings" as you call it and are likely to sound much better, and cost you.
I used to use a Roland Integra-7 MIDI hardware synth. It's the best they make. I've continued to use that for day-to-day work, but I recently found an easy way to use my music notation software, Presonus Notion 6, and their built-in London Symphony Orchestra sounds. I often export the BIAB MIDI to Notion, render the sounds to audio, and then load that audio track in BIAB after muting the melody and soloist tracks. Since I most often use jazz and classical sounds, this meets my needs. Almost anyone else is going to have different needs. To use your example, I specify in Notion notation that my violin tones will be bowed or plucked, or that my trumpet uses a cup mute, straight mute, or is played open. But keep in mind what I'm doing is NOT the normal way most do it. Explore the advice you've been getting about Kontakt library sounds, for example.
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What categories of midi synths are there. Are they categorized into hardware and software. If so how to install them such BIAB can use them? So I assume if you buy a box that is a hardware synth you plug it in the USB and load the software and BIAB picks it up. If it is software you use the BIAB plug in process (never done this so it is new to me). I am thinking GM and GM2 must be software synth and installed with BIAB (a guess).
But these all drill down to that same google search. The fastest easiest way to throw some money at the problem and get those notes one enters to sound better.
I am in effect making this thread the course (not terribly well organized but maybe it will get PG Music thinking). I have to take a break for a while. Other priority commitments. Will get back to this.
Some software libraries use GM or GM2 but many do not, and if you pay for a good library, you probably won't use GM or GM2 sounds because you'll have better available.
Most hardware synths will support GM and GM2. Some, like my Roland, add better sounds too. You get them in BIAB by using a Patch Map. I can explain more about that (I've written some).
But first -
Have you ever seen PG Music's page on this topic? It really old but it's still a great way to begin. Go here: https://www.pgmusic.com/dare-to-compare.htm Just keep in mind that sounds can be much better now than in these demos.
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Again, thanks Matt. That's a great comparison. I understand how the real tracks work. I found myself focusing on the midi melody track sound while comparing.
What PG-Music might consider is upgrading this page to make the samples a database that can easily be kept up to date with the latest competing midi synth options available. The question becomes "What might go in each database record and how might this information be presented to the BIAB user?". Here are ideas.
Synth Products database which has an associated list. .....Name .....Company .....Software or hardware synth .....Comments maybe. How it works, etc. .....Link to the company product web page .....a link to help on installing it
Samples Database within each song. .....pointer to the Synth Products database record to get the Synth name and company .....The sample. .....A link to pull up the above product information for the specific product.
The products list could be before or after the song samples (something the database designer and PG Music management would work out). Either way as a new synth comes out and is entered in the PG Music database it gets applied automatically to both the products list and the song samples.
This clearly would be a great aspect to the course. I think it would be the graduation stage of the course. Picture it. One hears the improvements, chooses one, goes directly to knowing how to install it and use it and earlier in the course they learned all the prerequisite knowledge needed to understand what they were doing at a deeper level. When one starts the course one is made aware of the final graduation benefit of this page. More food for PG Music's thoughts.
The user interface of the indiginus.com VST instruments Mario mentioned is rather unique as note velocities are used to select instrument articulations. I've attached a screen shot of an Indiginus acoustic guitar interface. I've also attached a copy of the user manual for you to take a look at. Keyboard keyswitches seem to be a more common method to select articulations.
You have to look close to find them but if you find a VST instrument you're interested in the user manuals are worth downloading and can be a goldmine for figuring out how some of these things work. You can learn a lot just by browsing through a manual.
The video below uses the acoustic guitar VST to provide some tips for getting realistic sounding performances from guitar VST instruments.
Again, thanks Matt. That's a great comparison. I understand how the real tracks work. I found myself focusing on the midi melody track sound while comparing.
What PG-Music might consider is upgrading this page to make the samples a database that can easily be kept up to date with the latest competing midi synth options available. The question becomes "What might go in each database record?". Here are ideas.
Synth Products database which has an associated list. .....Name .....Company .....Software or hardware synth .....Comments maybe. How it works, etc. .....Link to the company product web page .....a link to help on installing it
Samples Database within each song. .....pointer to the Synth Products database record to get the Synth name and company .....The sample. .....A link to pull up the above product information for the specific product.
This would not necessarily repeat with each song example. It could be an up front database that ties in with the song examples. Maybe it should be after the samples but mentioned up front (something the database designer and PG Music management would work out). Either way as a new synth comes out and is enter in the PG Music database it gets applied automatically to both what I list above and also to the samples.
This clearly would be a great aspect to the course. I think it would be the graduation stage of the course. Picture it. One hears the improvements, chooses one, goes directly to knowing how to install it and use it and earlier in the course they learned all the prerequisite knowledge needed to understand what they were doing at a deeper level. When one starts the course one is made aware of the final graduation benefit of this page. More food for PG Music's thoughts.
What a great idea. I'd support the idea if you put it in the wishlist.
Thanks Jim, wow the Renegade synth sure sounds exactly like an acoustic guitar.
So here is the question that maybe should be part of that database idea. How does this get on the BIAB melody track? Does it create notes? In other words a link to a page such as the one you supplied but an associated page on how it appears or interfaces with BIAB. This is important to keep in mind. I can not use a DAW at a jam. I can not use mp3 at a jam. I can only use BIAB period. Why? Because I have no idea who is going to show up for sure and I have no choice but use the BIAB to adjust the chorus very last minute to the number of choruses we need for the solos. In fact people try to get others to change their mind last minute. Totally unpredictable. So all these wonderful products need to be linked to BIAB. The jam always goes on. The melody player does not show. I turn on the melody track and BIAB does it. We still get to play our solos that we practiced.
I did create a wish list entry for a BIAB midi course to tie all this stuff together for BIAB use. I put it in the videos wish list (Seems appropriate since new videos may emerge from such a course). It has a pointer to this thread.
John, I'm glad that gave you some needed background. This topic is complex!
Over the last 15 years we've dropped more than a few hints to PG Music to update that Dare to Compare page. As they used to sell some of the products there (like the SD-20 I have, and Coyote Forte) but to my knowledge do not anymore, they may have less incentive to update the info. But I agree with you that it would be a superb way to allow new users to realize and choose good sound, and then take it the next step to install. We users could probably write this by combining our knowledge. At the least, we can proof anything PG Music makes, and perhaps contribute a recording of the same sample file if PG Music doesn't have a particular synth. I'll head to the Wishlist and give you a +1.
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The demonstration is showing the VST instrument at its best when played by a talented musician that is very familiar with the instrument and using VSTs. But, it does sound good, doesn't it!
The Melody channel uses midi channel 4 by default. You can change that by going to Ctrl + E and selecting the Channels button.
You add a VST instrument. One way is to click on the "Plugins" tab of the mixer and click on the 2nd plugin slot on the Melody channel to open the "VST/DXi Plugins" window. Navigate all the way to the bottom of the list and select "Add VST Plugin ...". This opens a file explorer window so you can navigate and select the VST file.
Then you'll need to open the VST instrument settings and set it up to respond to midi channel 4.
Thanks Jim, your info below could be a start on how to install or interface the VST with BIAB :-) A video waiting :-)
Quote:
The Melody channel uses midi channel 4 by default. You can change that by going to Ctrl + E and selecting the Channels button.
You add a VST instrument. One way is to click on the "Plugins" tab of the mixer and click on the 2nd plugin slot on the Melody channel to open the "VST/DXi Plugins" window. Navigate all the way to the bottom of the list and select "Add VST Plugin ...". This opens a file explorer window so you can navigate and select the VST file.
Then you'll need to open the VST instrument settings and set it up to respond to midi channel 4.
I noticed that the Melody track and the Thru track are the only two that have the top plugin set to "Coyote WT" and "SampleTank 2.x". I am making a guess that these are synthesizer software and also guessing that another track could be set for midi if it has these two in its top plugin. Is that correct? Also if they are synthesizer software how can two be allowed? This area is so full of questions. Clearly PG Music needs a well thought out course for people to get up and running quickly.
But I agree with you that it would be a superb way to allow new users to realize and choose good sound, and then take it the next step to install. We users could probably write this by combining our knowledge.
Regarding this I learned to use OBS studio along with Microsoft Movie maker to create videos for my Jazz jams Club. OBS studio to create them in chunks and MS Movie Maker to edit them (append them together and strip out unwanted stuff). They seem to both work flawlessly and are free. If PG music ever set up a database as I suggested maybe it could be set up for allowing an unlimited number of videos to be linked for setting up a Synth or VST for BIAB.
For thoroughly authentic piano and organ sounds you might want to check out physical instrument simulations such as -> Pianoteq
I use Synthogy Ivory II for my VST MIDI controlled Piano. I find it quite impressive. The full install library requires 77Gb of disk space. Certainly not the cheapest product available, but the sound and performance is staggering.
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All this control comes at a cost though. A keyboard player may not be able to access all the articulation keys while playing live. Some sound modules work better in DAWs while others excel in live settings but sound bland in a DAW.
+1
Many attendants in my face-to-face clinics (pre covid19 isolation) tell stories of their sophisticated sample libraries being amazing in studio but disappointing on stage. I think the top of the ice cream is obtained by customization those particular sounds that we are going to use live, editing layers, combining patches, minimizing articulations or replacing them with more 'colored' sounds on stage even though they sound exaggerated in the studio. This can be achieved both with external modules and with virtual instrument plugins.
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Got ya. Reminds me of the lyrics, "... moma always told me not to look into the eye of the sun, but mama, that's where the fun is" 
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