Ok John, you are persistent I will give you that. And I can be a bit slow on the uptake at times. But I think I am starting to understand a bit of the issue here.
I stated earlier that " none of this has really changed in the past decade...", but in fact it has. It used to be so much simpler then it is now.
Back circa 2000, when I first explored "making midi melody to sound real in BIAB", there were only three options 1) Internal computer sounds from the sound card (horrible), 2) External GM hardware synth (I still one in the closet) and 3) Coyote Forte GM software syth. That Coyte Forte GM software synth served me well for 20 years. In fact, I would still be using it today, and telling you to use it now, if it were not for the fact that BIAB killed it when they released BIABx64. So if you are working only with BIABx32, purchase a copy of Coyote Forte (not coyote wave) for $35 and call it a day.
Today working with Midi sounds in BIAB can be a horrendous chore to find a good sounds. Some of us solved this by taking our BIAB midi to our DAW where none GM sounds are the norm along with the tools to manage them. In my case, it was not until I started working with a midi control keyboard that I really appreciated the value of the midi creation (front-end). Otherwise, there are several GM sound players and VSTsynths, with very good sounds, which are being used in BIAB and have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, they border on needing a audio engineering degree to comprehend and setup. The good news is that there are folks here in the forum who can help direct.
So, I agree, better schooling and training is needed for us all on this topic. Problem is, that is generally not the priority (well at least for me) for making music. But like you said "we do what we have to do".
Thanks Dan. I can't use a DAW because I do not know how many participants in my Jazz jams are doing a solo. They hum and haw because they are nervous then they change their mind and go for it or they chicken out last minute. So I get the final last second decision, set the number of BIAB chorus repeats and click start and off we go. So I have to accept accept accept BIAB and learn to be happy with that. Acceptance is a skill required to be happy. We do what we go to do. Acceptance is a skill that helps us as we get old to. Its the same in market trading. Two trades have exactly the same signals. I take both. One gives me $100. The other gives me $3. I accept it and stay happy. I learned this well when I got in a marriage with a person with issues. I learned a bit of CBT thinking I could help them. In surprised me that instead I used CBT to changed and accept them and I could be happy that way to. In the end I decided to leave. We try but when we can't get we accept. Its a constant balancing act.
Well, I'm not necessarily thinking just melody. One of the big things I'm trying to do with MIDI is to write horn charts in Real Band. Someone posted a soft synth that does fantastic synth sounds of horns, and as far as I can tell, the difference in these is the articulations. I forget which one it was, but it seemed to be a VST, having it's own sound editor. You could pick a note and apply a sound effect like sforzando, or vibrato at the end of longer notes, etc.
I wasn't sure how it worked in the VST and didn't want to spend the money on the plug-in until I'm sure how it works.
It just seems as though I should be able to pick, say, a trumpet part, and apply a filter to all of the notes in that part that change the velocity of each note to be a little higher at the outset of the note, like a player blowing the note into the horn. Then apply a filter that sets the velocity to increase for longer duration notes, and/or add vibrato with velocities on longer notes.
Is there any such way to apply such "preset" horn articulations to MIDI notes, or if there isn't a way to do this, why isn't there? Surely someone has thought of this concept before.
BTW, the Indiginus Blue Street Horns is the VST that I'm referring to. How can I get those sounds into Real Band, or into my BIAB melody track? https://indiginus.com/blue_street.html
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Dan said "The Coyte Forte GM software synth only runs on the old BIAB 32 bit". So this means the Dare-To-Compare page needs to be a database softare for sure and it needs to ask the user what version of BIAB they have before it is displayed. Either that or the purchase button takes them to a system requirements page first so no time is wasted
Hey guys, I have to tune out for a few days as of right now. So my responses will come in late.
BTW, the Indiginus Blue Street Horns is the VST that I'm referring to. How can I get those sounds into Real Band, or into my BIAB melody track? https://indiginus.com/blue_street.html
On this topic, we are just waiting for Mario to tell us when the best time/price is to buy!
Otherwise, I am confident that the controls available in Reaper along with my midi controller will permit all those sounds in my melody track. Likely RB can do the same, but not so confident that BIAB can do this. Last I tried it struggled with VSTi plugins.
Well, I'm not necessarily thinking just melody. One of the big things I'm trying to do with MIDI is to write horn charts in Real Band. Someone posted a soft synth that does fantastic synth sounds of horns, and as far as I can tell, the difference in these is the articulations. I forget which one it was, but it seemed to be a VST, having it's own sound editor. You could pick a note and apply a sound effect like sforzando, or vibrato at the end of longer notes, etc.
I wasn't sure how it worked in the VST and didn't want to spend the money on the plug-in until I'm sure how it works.
It just seems as though I should be able to pick, say, a trumpet part, and apply a filter to all of the notes in that part that change the velocity of each note to be a little higher at the outset of the note, like a player blowing the note into the horn. Then apply a filter that sets the velocity to increase for longer duration notes, and/or add vibrato with velocities on longer notes.
Velocity has no bearing on how long the note is held. Velocity adjusts the initial attack and sound of the instrument. If you have only a one layer sound there will be no change in the initial note attack or sound. But if it has a number of layers then different velocity levels will change the initial attack and sound. For instance say a trumpet sound has 5 layers. A low velocity will give a soft attack and sound while a high velocity will give a loud trumpet blast and sound.
Sforzando, vibrato, and other articulations are controlled by MIDI CCs or key switches. Many times the mod wheel (CC1) will control expression (volume after the initial volume CC7 is set) in horns, woodwinds and strings. This will handle all of your volume changes. Vibrato is controlled by other CCs. Most of the good sound sources have a MIDI learn where you click on MIDI learn and move a slider or knob and from then on that slider or knob will control vibrato. In the really good sound sources you can preset the amount of vibrato and how long into the note the vibrato will start.
Originally Posted By: Funkifized
Is there any such way to apply such "preset" horn articulations to MIDI notes, or if there isn't a way to do this, why isn't there? Surely someone has thought of this concept before.
BTW, the Indiginus Blue Street Horns is the VST that I'm referring to. How can I get those sounds into Real Band, or into my BIAB melody track? https://indiginus.com/blue_street.html
The horn articulations you mentioned are accomplish by key switches. Say press a C1 note to get Sforzando or a C#1 to get legato, etc. The better the sound source the more key switch articulations and control you will get.
Note that the blue-steel requires the full version of Kontakt.
I hope that helps and good luck.
If you need help feel free to PM me.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
BTW, the Indiginus Blue Street Horns is the VST that I'm referring to. How can I get those sounds into Real Band, or into my BIAB melody track? https://indiginus.com/blue_street.html
On this topic, we are just waiting for Mario to tell us when the best time/price is to buy!
Otherwise, I am confident that the controls available in Reaper along with my midi controller will permit all those sounds in my melody track. Likely RB can do the same, but not so confident that BIAB can do this. Last I tried it struggled with VSTi plugins.
Don't laugh I'm waiting for it to go on sale! But I rarely if ever have seen Indiginus products go on sale. They are really good VSTis!
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
So, are these Blue Street Brass sounds MIDI or sampled real sounds? In don't understand how the VSP works. Would I be sequencing a horn line, editing it after the performance with effects like vibrato, microphone, etc., and then importing that sound performance into the DAW? The time align with the current track, which I created in BIAB?
Clueless.
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So, are these Blue Street Brass sounds MIDI or sampled real sounds? In don't understand how the VSP works. Would I be sequencing a horn line, editing it after the performance with effects like vibrato, microphone, etc., and then importing that sound performance into the DAW? The time align with the current track, which I created in BIAB?
Clueless.
They are MIDI but I use sampled instruments for their sounds.
I bring my BiaB tracks into my DAW. I would then set up a MIDI track in my DAW with Blue Street Brass as my sound source and a MIDI controller as my input device. For this I would probably use my MIDI wind controller. I could use my MIDI keyboard controller also. I would record the horn(s) while playing the other tracks.
If using a keyboard controller I could be adding key switch articulations and expression control via the mod wheel while playing. If using my wind controller expression is controlled via my breath and vibrato by my mouth piece. All other articulations would be done either by sound on sound recording (recording the articulations live while hearing the notes) or drawing them in in the piano roll view.
Last edited by MarioD; 06/27/2010:12 AM.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I'm not a keyboard player per se, would have a difficult time playing the notes in time, especially while using the other hand to twist nobs, move pitch wheels, etc. Is there a way to enter notes into a a MIDI file and edit the controllers/effects after the fact? Import a MIDI file to my DAW from Finale, but but then edit the notes to have articulations, fall-offs, vibrato, etc.?
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Of course Mario knows this stuff well, but let me add my perspective based on how I would likely use this, in a hope it clarifies rather than confuses
All these VSTs work a little differently. In this case these are individual real audio sounds. Individual notes triggered by individual midi notes. I can't determine if they are polyphonic, meaning if you hit a chord you get multiple notes, but I suspect it would. Just like Mario, all of BIAB comes over into my DAW to do this. If I were using this for a melody line, I would first just send the BIAB midi melody to this and here what it does. It should sound a lot better than any GM synth in BIAB. Now I can stop there. Or often if the melody line is simple, I will play it live with my controller keyboard. This allows more of me in the music.
Quote:
s there a way to enter notes into a a MIDI file and edit the controllers/effects after the fact?
Yes, of course. I don't see a lot of key switching which is typical in many of these to change parameters, rather, this looks like it has control commands (cc) to adjust in the midi line. The manual addresses these.
I have contacted Indiginus to see if we can get a special price reduction deal since we are such nice guys. I'll let you know.
I also notified the moderator and asked for this side bar discussion to be moved to a separate thread. hehe , We (I) really disrailed the OP long discussion.
I am back for a short while until I start working on my next recording :-)
Quote:
So, are these Blue Street Brass sounds MIDI or sampled real sounds? In don't understand how the VSP works.
You need go through the first part of my course :-) But I am serious. Give it a try. It is free :-) Skim the course and click the links to drill down to the details when you see the need.
So lets see if I have this clear. I am going to make some statements and maybe someone can tell me if I am correct or not on each.
First off I just determined I have BIAB 2018 32 bit and I updated my course about this topic. I also updated my course on how to switch back to 32 bit if you have the 64 bit (apparently 2019 comes standard with 32 bit - not sure about 2020).
Since I want the notation to have proper easy to sight read timing I enter the notes directly into BIAB. I then export the midi file out and bring it into a VST that can add articulations to the midi file (Can Renegate do this?). Now I bring my midi file back into BIAB and I run it through a synth that actually sounds like a real instrument (how to I get this real sound - I don't want it to sound like a tin can with great articulations). How to make it sound like a real (bass, sax, nylon string guitar, piano, flute, organ, vibes).
So simple! Can this be done? How? How much money roughly?
LoL. It's a question of money. Buy a few plugins like Ample Sound stuff, SaxLab, EZkeys and Superior drummer. Tip: rob a bank first.
But you'll need a lot of experience to get the best out of the best. Import BIAB stuff in a DAW, and then start messing with timing etc.
This is where BIAB really excels: with relatively little money it sounds quite good after a short period of time. Alas it comes at a price, as BIAB is full of quirks and buggy RT handling if you want specialities like half-timing RTs, change beat counts at a bar etc.
I am starting to think there is not enough (demand for making the BIAB midi melody tracks sound real) to motivate PG-Music to make pursuing this goal easy. Either that or it is a future priority.
......................... Now I bring my midi file back into BIAB and I run it through a synth that actually sounds like a real instrument (how to I get this real sound - I don't want it to sound like a tin can with great articulations). How to make it sound like a real (bass, sax, nylon string guitar, piano, flute, organ, vibes).
So simple! Can this be done? How? How much money roughly?
It's not so simple. BiaB is locked into General MIDI (GM) and it really has to be in order for everyone to be able to hear the same thing, i.e. GM is very easy to use.
You can get some realistic sounds using GM and the SFZ sounds that are included with BiaB. It takes a knowledge of the instrument you are trying to emulate and the MIDI skill via CCs to pull it off. (Note if you take a stock BiaB MIDI track and use a very expensive sound source it still be will static sounding; you need to animate it.) You can get a more realistic bass and nylon guitar by add some vibrato and slides. The piano and organ can sound realistic with the proper playing techniques. Depending on what GM or SFZ sound source you have other instruments can sound better also. Note that soundfonts and SFZ instruments have many different sounds of the same instrument available. Think like what trumpet sound do you want? Miles? Maynard Ferguson? Satchmo? Sax is one that you will need to spend some money on to get a good sound, but google/bing to see is some free ones will be OK.
Why doesn't PGM automatically do this for you? I surmise it is because every system is different. They know that when one really gets into MIDI one of the first things they do is to drop GM. Lets say you want to have a trumpet slur from a half tone up to the desired tone. My trumpet sound my be set for a half tone slur while your may be set for a two tone slur. Thus mine will sound OK and yours awful! There are no standard for things like that and there souldn't be. It is up to you to set up your instruments.
If you really want to get into better sounding MIDI it does cost. I would suggest you get either Kontakt or SampleTank, both around $400. (I chose Kontakt because of the number of third party sounds for it.) I would wait for a sale on either of these excellent programs. I know that Kontakt goes on sale occasionally for around half price.
BUT before I would spend that kind of money I would start learning MIDI and playing with the sounds you already have. I'm sure others will have suggestions also.
I hope this helps and good luck.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
A minimum investment for working with Midi. And no, you don't need years of piano lessons (although it won't hurt). The little guy, at ~99$ is over 20 years old and still fully functional. The bigger guy at $149 I picked up a couple years ago when I pushed to a next level. A relatively minor investment to go down this road.
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And I can be a bit slow on the uptake at times. 
But I think I am starting to understand a bit of the issue here. 
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