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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299 |
Thx a lot, fellow travelers, Jim -once again- raises an important question: why don’t you make (Real) User tracks? That is the key question. In MIDI, the “algorithm” does some of the work for you. In Realtracks, this does not work. In BIAB you can make styles by making a MIDI song where you have 2 bar-, 1 bar, half a bar, 1-beat chords. If your MIDI file is long enough, say 32 bars and 3 choruses without any copying and pasting, it works. This way you get more than 15 variations for each “case”: 2 bar chord, 1 bar, half a bar... (Most factory styles are not so elaborate and stick with 5 variations, but still...) Even this “simple” workflow takes me on average 30 hours for only bass and drums and a little piano. One style. Being fed up with hearing the same lines in different styles, as PGMUSIC does, I never use a line twice and that makes it more fun to play along with. Biab, Yamaha and Roland then have an algorithm that translates chord and scale tones to all possible chords. Yamaha and Roland are scale based, Korg has a really sophisticated algorithm that is scale and chord based. Biab is scale or chord based, but the algorithm only knows a few chords. A good algorithm should know about 26 different possible chords: 7 modes of Major, Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, 1 mode of wholetone, 2 modes of diminished, 2 modes of Augmented. Roland, Yamaha and Korg do a great job at this, but don’t have a good song based software with lead sheets like BIAB. BIAB is both ahead (song, sheet, melody) and behind (harmony...) In User Tracks you would, to have a good variety and modern harmony, have to record 32 bars, 3 choruses for every chord type (to make it intresting, you could make songs that overlap, of course...). That is 96 bars times 26 chords... quick math for a 120 bpm style: 10 hours of playing! For each instrument! For each style! And that’s if you played perfectly on each take. And not taking the time to correct velocity bumps, adjusting microphones and all... That is why all jazz Realstyles share the same sixteen bass parts, piano parts, drum parts. And get boring after some time. Cause you select a different style, but, in reality, you get the same drums or bass... Algorithms do the work for you. Realtracks don’t have that possibility. In the future, with stuff like Melodyne, it will be possible to use the same procedure in audio as in MIDI and sound good. It is already possible, but sounds quirky. At this time, harmony-wise, realtracks are at a dead end. Even at the rate of the minimum wage,  I think MIDI is a good alternative with all the great libraries out there. If only PGMUSIC stepped up their algorithm.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20,318
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I feel sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say here.
I think that RealTracks simply substitute exotic chords it does not know with 'similar' chords that it does know.
Please correct me if that assumption is incorrect.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 299 |
You got it absolutely right. And, hey, who can blame them since they have much too much chords on their list? Even Wayne Shorter would wonder how to play some of these chords, and he is way out there, harmonically, stacking triads on top of other triads, like Dave Liebman explains. On the one hand, they should simplify it, there are only 16 or so important chords, even in modern jazz. Really, who uses the third mode of harmonic minor, save for Richie Beirach or Hancock? Harmonic.minor, if you have the first sixth and fifth mode, that will do. But, we need melodic minor, augmented, wholetone and diminished and diminished dominant... On the other, since they managed to get the piano part right for most chords (sadly not for phrygian or susb9 chords, widely used in modern jazz since Miles’ sketches of Spain), they should work on the bass part. Have you heard the altered chord clashing with the bass? It’s horrendous. Same goes with the MIDI styles: skip a lot of chords or link them to the chord-scale so they share the same scale tones... and get the parts play the modern chords right like lydian(augmented or not), phrygian and altered. Levine and Berklee teached us how to play good music, if Yamaha and Roland can do the right harmonic thing, PGMUSIC should know how. On a side note... Oliver Gannon, the OG in PGMUSIC, (I’m so hilarious...) plays old fashioned jazz, but in an intricate modern way, like Ed Bickert, Ron Escheté or Jim Hall. If you check his guitar comping disk, a lot of the really great substitutions he uses are just that: phrygian, altered, diminished, augmented. The things he does to the old 251? Wow. Miles Black, same thing, very advanced player. Why can’t these guys advise the tech guys on a better algorithm? Renee Rosnes... Slap those IT-guys and girls over the head with some modern harmony until they get it. 
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,814
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Posts: 10,814 |
For the sake of keeping a great discussion going, lets let our mind wander and think things through a little bit.
First, the majority of PG Music's RealTracks don't have audio material for all twelve key signatures. How do I know this? Because RealTracks that do have audio in all twelve key signatures are identified in their RealTracks label. My guess is the number of key signatures used to create the audio in a specific RealTrack will vary depending on the audio content as well as the tempo range the RealTrack is expected to support. I would think most RealTracks average audio content in four to five key signatures. The rest of the key signatures are handled by software transposition or pitch shifting.
How big a tempo range does a RealTrack cover? Again it depends on a RealTracks audio content. Generally speaking slow tempos have smaller tempo ranges than fast tempos.
Since UserTracks were introduced in 2014 PG Music has switched the time and pitch shifting software either once and possibly twice. Each software switch dramatically improves rendering sound quality.
Forum member Seeker proved creating audio content for some UserTracks can be automated. Seeker used midi and high quality sound libraries to create wonderful sounding UserTracks. Once he got his system in place Seeker cranked out more than 500 UserTracks over a two year time span.
Dzjang, you seem to know modern Jazz. My guess is you know what key signatures are most often used, what time signatures are popular and the tempos of many modern Jazz songs. What instruments do PG Music RealTracks lack? What tempos and time signatures are under represented?
As you can tell I'm thinking midi and sound libraries can be used to create missing link UserTracks. You may have to use a combination of programs or tools to create the midi tracks that include all the chords you desire but once you have the midi tracks they can be used again and again and again to create all the UserTracks you desire.
One last point. A UserTrack is made of the contents inside a folder. A PG Music song file and audio file combine into one file pair by sharing a label. The label can be anything, it doesn't matter, as long as the song file and audio file label is the same. You can have a file pair called "a.sgu" and "a.wav" if you want. The UserTrack folder can have one file pair or 1,000 file pairs, it doesn't matter as long as each file pair has a unique name. Band-in-a-Box and RealBand uses the sgu file to determine what the paired audio file contains. That means UserTracks content can grow over time. It doesn't have to all be done at once. Create one, release it and let customer feedback determine what's missing.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
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Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
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Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac Videos
With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll also keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.
From overviews of new features and walkthroughs of the 202 new RealTracks, to highlights of XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAKs 18, the 2025 49-PAK, and in-depth tutorials — you’ll find everything you need to explore what’s new in Band-in-a-Box® 2025.
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Mac Videos — we’ll be adding more videos as they’re released!
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Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
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2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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