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Morning all
Jazz Up, Jazz Down has few details in the manual. There are so many things to be mindful off when building songs, this kind of goes unnoticed so I've never given it a whole lot of thought until I embarked on another search this morning for more info on an item in the same menu. I've always thought BIAB had 'jazz' overtones even in country/folk/ and other non-jazz styles. Could this be the reason?
I don't work with jazz styles, so I'd like to set it "off" and be done with it.
Does this feature have a permanent "check off" setting anywhere?
Does it have to be set for each song, and then reset upon return to that song?
There are only several lines in the menu.
If you've discovered more about the effect of jazz up/jazz down, I'd love to hear about it.
Thanks - Ian
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Here's one place:
There is a checkbox in Opt., Preferences, Overrides for Allow Embellishment of Chords, and right under that, two buttons to select 'Jazz' or 'Pop/Country'.
These have been there for awhile, and do seem to affect MIDI. I doubt they could have any effect at all on Real Tracks.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I'm a noob, so I apologize if this is obvious or old hat. (Or totally irrelevant!)
Every once in a blue moon, I'll hear an inappropriate dominant chord (usually the piano) played over a major chord. There is a checkbox somewhere that enables playing dominant chords for all majors. I also saw another setting to allow dominant chords just over the V major (which makes more sense to me). I'm not sure if those settings apply to chord subs or just to soloists playing over changes. (This also probably related closely to the "bluesy" check boxes, which I think applies just to soloists.) Could that be related to your issue and causing the "jazzed up" sound you're trying to avoid?
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Quote:
These have been there for awhile, and do seem to affect MIDI. I doubt they could have any effect at all on Real Tracks.
They definitely don't. I've messed with that extensively. If you use a jazz Real Style, the players will do what they will do. In fact, I've noticed that if you type in, say, G13, the piano or guitar may play just G9. If you type in, say, Fmaj7, the guitar may be playing an F6. Regardless, they are immune to the chord-sub overrides. Which makes perfect sense to me.
Last edited by Schnazola; 02/17/10 10:39 AM.
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Quote:
There is a checkbox somewhere that enables playing dominant chords for all majors. I also saw another setting to allow dominant chords just over the V major (which makes more sense to me).
Where is that, please?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
Quote:
If you use a jazz Real Style, the players will do what they will do. In fact, I've noticed that if you type in, say, G13, the piano or guitar may play just G9. If you type in, say, Fmaj7, the guitar may be playing a F6. Regardless, they are immune to the chord-sub overrides. Which makes perfect sense to me.
This sometimes poses a bit of a challenge for me as a composer, when I really would like to hear the exact chord I wrote, at least in the first chorus. For this reason, I generally compose using MIDI piano and guitar until the song is nearly done, then switch to Real Tracks.
Most of the time, this works great, except when a chord doesn't seem to be supported in a particular Real Track. For example, a few of the Real Track pianists do not recognize a mMaj7 chord, and just drop out when that chord comes up. I've reported that, and it's getting better with each new update.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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"Jazz up" has very few details to describe, Ian, because it does a lot less than people seem to hope (or fear).
If you "jazz up" your tune, it merely changes certain chord values for only that one tune to modern ones. An A is automatically made into an Amaj7, for example. Minor triads become minor 7ths. Nothing happens to your style. Melody stays as is. It is not a rash maneuver. The process is exactly reversible; if you don't care for your jazzed-up result or if you want to try a jazz arrangement in a folk style, jazz things down.
Jazz Up is just a one-shot deal that re-writes one set of chords and doesn't carry though to anything else, anywhere, ever. There's no way to turn it off, because it's never turned on.
___
Larry
______
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Thanks so far to:
Matt - I visited the Prefs and made sure the setting you suggested was unchecked for Pop/Country.
Schnaz - was unable to find the adjustments you mentioned.
Allis - Basically what you are saying is that if I use say a pop/country style, that an A chord will remain an A chord and not become an A maj7 UNLESS I click on Jazz Up.?
Neither Jazz Up nor Jazz Down are default settings, but a choice.
Can't tell if it affects RTs or only Midi.
Thanks -Ian
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Quote:
Where is that, please?
Quote:
Schnaz - was unable to find the adjustments you mentioned.
I promise when I get home tonight I will try to locate that stuff -- in as many places as I can. I've been pressing so many buttons, I don't remember what I've done and where I've seen them. I am CERTAIN I saw a setting for the "okay to play dominants on the V major chord" or some such. Again, it could be related to soloists only.
(Where is the "BOSS BUTTON" on these forums?!!!!)
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Quote:
Basically what you are saying is that if I use say a pop/country style, that an A chord will remain an A chord and not become an A maj7 UNLESS I click on Jazz Up.?
Neither Jazz Up nor Jazz Down are default settings, but a choice.
Choice? What isn't? But that thing is certainly not a setting.
It is only a helpful utility program that will straighten up chords for you (quite well), without your having to slog through and type them in individually.
Styles interpret the symbols on a chord sheet in their own ways, but they do not replace the symbols with new ones; that is what Jazz Up/Down does. Try it on your songs a few times and you'll see how it works much quicker than by listening to me. It will not affect anything other than the song you run it on. If you don't save its results, it makes no permanent alteration, even to that. There are no hidden effects.
Larry
______
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Quote:
Quote:
These have been there for awhile, and do seem to affect MIDI. I doubt they could have any effect at all on Real Tracks.
They definitely don't. I've messed with that extensively. If you use a jazz Real Style, the players will do what they will do.
Schnaz, you may modestly insist you're a "noob," but this BiaB orgy of yours is turning you into a site resource already. That was a helpful, knowledgeable remark right there. Thanks for mentioning it.
Larry
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Larry
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Real Tracks are audio files so these settings are not going to change anything. If it's a jazz RT, then those jazzy chords were recorded but if you're using a country RT, probably not. When you think about it, it really becomes apparant just how big a job it is to put together these RT's files. A minor 9th vs a minor 11th for example. How many different jazz chord variations is it practical to record into one RT? Not just the basic chord either, what about voicings and inversions? I don't know the answer but they've done a great job so far but like anything else, the RT's don't have everything for everybody. This is why PG is not giving up on midi, there's much more control but then you're subject to the quality of whatever midi synth you have. Everything has it's Catch 22.
Bob
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I'm not at home yet (still goofing off at work), so I haven't had the chance to hunt down the "dominant chord options" in BIAB. But I found this blurb in the new-features section on page 26 of the 2009.5 manual:
"Better playing on the 'V' chord, since it is usually played as a V7 chord. Options added to allow a RealTrack to treat the V7 chord as a V (useful in rock styles), or to treat all 7th chords as major triads (useful in blues)."
The second half of the second sentence puzzles me, though, because it would seem to me that the opposite would be true; that is, it is useful in blues to treat major triads as dominants. But anyway . . .
Later.
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Okay, I think I found it -- and not a moment too soon, b/c it's after 1:15 am, and my damn alarm is set for 5:30. Guh!
It is a soloist setting, not a chord-sub thing (unless it's also somewhere else). Sorry for mentioning this whole thing in the context of Jazz-up/down of chords and chord subs. My bad.
If you press the Soloist button, the Select Soloist panel opens up. Pretty complex thing, that. But -- Lo!! -- there's more. Press the Edit... button on the right to open the Soloist Editor window. On the bottom right are all sorts of boxes to check regarding the treatment of major chords, dominant chords, and the V chord in particular.
I'm not sure I understand the bottom one: "Treat all 7th chords like Major." Does that mean Maj7 or Dom7? I don't see how treating Dom7 chords like simple major triads can make a solo sound more bluesy. On the other hand, I can see how treating Maj7 and Maj9 chords as simple major triads would make a solo sound more "bluesy." And since the word "dominant" was used for the other check boxes, I'm assuming that "7th" means Maj7.
But I suppose that's something ELSE to try out! TOMORROW!
Uh, I mean later today!
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Hey Schnaz - I hope you're getting through the day OK after your dedicated research.  I wanted to say "thanks" for running this down. As much as I love BIAB, finding full explanations of all the features in the manual is sometimes hard to come by - that's why the collective experience of this Forum is so great. Cheers - Ian
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You're welcome, Ian.
I hit the snooze button a few times and got into work a bit late, but I'll make it up later. I'm not tired now but will be this afternoon; that's when it catches up with me.
I, too, find the manual and the Help files a bit lacking, but I know how hard it is to write a great users guide. But I'll tell you what's remarkably good: the tips that pop up when you hover your mouse pointer over an item. They are fairly robust and often provide enough info to obviate a trip to the Help files or manual. The PGM software dudes who are responsible for the user interface are to be commended for taking the time to work those link tags into the program. Very convenient, I think, and greatly increases the usability of BIAB.
If I stumble across anything like the soloist dominant thing for chord subs, I'll let you know, but I infer from Matt's comment that it doesn't exist, and he would know. (He was obviously being polite.)
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Thanks, but far from it. I know enough to know I don't know everything about this program, as I am rightly called to task every so often for a blown answer I may give. About the soloist dominant thing, the reason I never saw that is that I don't use the Soloist feature. [That's what I'm here for.]
However, I accept the compliment about trying to be polite. Thanks!
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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