Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Why would a song be considered to be written in F# when no other chords in the song are in that key?

Example, White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane. F# G F# G A C D A is the chord progression. The guitar solo is out of a F# minor scale more or less. That scale contains at least F# A and D.

It is pretty obvious what key something is in if it mostly stays in key. It is not so obvious when most of the notes are out of key.

Is this just a question of ease of writing in standard notation or first notes defines the key?

Thanks,

Billy


“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
More knowledgeable folks will answer but I would say the beginning chord defines the key.

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,114
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,114
It can be all over.

Readability is my overriding goal.

Sometimes jazz composers write in C because it's too difficult to figure out what key is best overall when it modulates frequently. Just write with lots of accidentals in the notation.

Other composers change the key signature for the bridge etc. and back in the last verse.

But if I had to pick a key signature that would work best overall, I surely would not choose F# unless I had to.

Bob is right, sometimes the first chord of a song is the correct key signature. Unfortunately, this fails as often as it works.


BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Off-Topic
E
eddie1261
Unregistered
eddie1261
Unregistered
E
F# minor with a modulation to the 3, which in an F minor scale is an A natural. Because when it comes back to the verse it reverts back to the F# minor that is the home key.

If you want a study in modulation, listen to Sergio Mendez' Never Gonna Let You Go. It changes key 22 times.

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,223
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,223
Like Eddie said, it works because of relative minors.
It changes from major to minor throughout the song.

The mysterious part is obviously the minor (F#)
Then when it goes to A it is an old classical move; go from relative minor to the major (adds mood like triumph, success etc)
Then revert back to the relative minor for the mystery effect again (or sad or however you perceive it in a given piece).

Point is it could be in either the key of F#(m) or A.
My training says instead of where it starts, in this situation look at where it ends.
One instructor told me in this particular minor/major situation to simply hit the right bass note when it ends.
In this case it would be the A .. but since it does technically start in F#m I wouldn't challenge it.
The chords want you to feel the minor/major change (the effect).

What makes this one interesting is the C and G chords, as these don't fit the basic scale and are a more unique change than the F#m to A in my opinion.

However neither is new
1-b3-4-1 is a common progression (A-C-D-A section; play that alone a few times and it becomes familiar) much like A-C-D-E ..

The half step modulation from F# to G isn't new either, but used in an unfamiliar way.
Combining the two creates a mood.
I actually wrote a song using F#m-G-F#m-Em (I added the Em at the end, but same effect basically).

As far as key, I can picture either being correct, but it would be F#m and not F# (implying major).

I like how this guy puts it -

Quote:
I often hear people discussing music theory as if it were a bunch of rules to be followed or broken. But to me this misses the point.

I like to compare music theory to gravity, and to ask people, “have you ever broken the law of gravity?” It’s a silly question and often gets silly answers, but I hope my point is clear: the law of gravity is not a rule to be followed or broken; it just is.

Like music theory, the law of gravity doesn’t tell you what to do, it merely tells you about cause and effect. Gravity doesn’t care whether or not you drop a rock you are holding; it just tells that *if* you let go of that rock, it will fall. You can choose whether or not to let go based on whether or not you want that rock to fall. Similarly, music theory doesn’t care whether or not you resolve a dominant chord to the tonic or not; if just tells you that *if* you resolve it that way, the result is satisfying in a particular way. You can choose whether or not to resolve it based on whether or not you want that particular sense of satisfaction.

Keep this in mind as you study music theory. No “rule” of music theory ever tells you what you must do; it merely helps you understand the effect of various different things you might try.


source - https://outsideshore.com/category/music-theory/


/just my thoughts on it


I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
A good example of a song not necessarily being in the key of the first chord is "Sweet Georgia Brown".

Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Hey Matt...this may have been written in F# for no better reason than that was the first chord.

When the original demo was made none of these people played well enough and Sly Stone had to play all the instruments. Grace Slick did teach Jefferson Airplane how to play the song. She was married to the drummer.

The half step up or down is pretty common in any key. F# to G in this case. It is easy to hear and recognize.

The A C D A by it could be in the key of A but there is no C major in the key of A.

This song became very popular for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that the singer/songwriter was a very good looking fashion model. Looking back it was a prototypical vision for the Haight Ashbury LSD drug culture.

It is still being used in 2020 in TV commercials and film.

Billy


“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Off-Topic
E
eddie1261
Unregistered
eddie1261
Unregistered
E
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
The A C D A by it could be in the key of A but there is no C major in the key of A.


Billy, pick up your guitar and play this progression.

C for 4 beats
Eb for 4 beats
F for 4 beats
Ab for 2 beats
Bb for 2 beats

Repeat a few times.

You are playing major chords with the notes of a C Aeolian (minor) scale as the roots.

There is no C in the key of A MAJOR. The keys of A have 7 modes. 4 of the A modes have a C natural in it. They just aren't the major flavor scales. Here's a chart. With an A as the root, 2,3,6 and 7 have a C natural.


Last edited by eddie1261; 09/16/20 02:30 PM.
Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,703
Thanks Eddie, I get what you are saying.

What I am saying is if you tell me we are playing in F# major and F# is the only triad used in the whole song, the key does not give me any useful information. Then if I have to sight read it everything becomes an accidental except the F#.


“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Off-Topic
E
eddie1261
Unregistered
eddie1261
Unregistered
E
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
Thanks Eddie, I get what you are saying.

What I am saying is if you tell me we are playing in F# major and F# is the only triad used in the whole song, the key does not give me any useful information.


Sure it does, and that's where a basis in theory comes into play. There are logical places to go from the root. Picking C for the easiest example, if your root chord is C, the logical next steps on that scale are the 4th (F), the 5th (G), the minor 2nd (Dm), the minor 6th (Am), and the major 3rd (E).

I wrote a song once as an exercise, in C, where the intervals of the notes never changed. So the chord progression was C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, G7 (with no G, just B-D-F) and then back to C.

But there's where it gets sticky. Those notes that I said made up the G7 are also the top 3 notes of a G#dim. So the theory purists would refer to that walk up a major scale as M m m M M m Dim M (octave).

So your starting chord really does give you a road map. Of course really interesting writing doesn't follow a formula. If it did every song would be so similar it would be boring. Just think of how many songs use that 1-5-6m-4 thing that Pachelbel wrote. These guys show this very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I&ab_channel=random804

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!

Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.

What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?

XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!

Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!

Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!

Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!

It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!

We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!

Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:

Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!

Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!

New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!

We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!

Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!

Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.

Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles

Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)

And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.

You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.

Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!

The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!

Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!

With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

  • The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
  • Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
  • Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
  • Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
  • Playable RealTracks Set 4
  • RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
  • SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
  • 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.

Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:

  • 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
  • FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
  • Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
  • Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
  • Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
  • RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe

Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Forum Statistics
Forums58
Topics84,623
Posts781,888
Members39,705
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
Newest Members
amndfnly87, AnSp, charlamma, DiehlHouse, hughb
39,705 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 171
WaoBand 113
rsdean 109
Al-David 103
DC Ron 97
dcuny 86
Noel96 77
Today's Birthdays
zportmann
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5