PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Why don't outstanding musicians and vocalist's get national or worldwide attention?

Why don't outstanding musicians and vocalist's get national or worldwide attention?

Does John Q. Public even have the capacity to understand when they're hearing something exceptional? Or do they just respond to a drum machine and a synthesized handful of notes accompanied by a pitch corrected voice "singing" repetitive lyrics?

Does it take a hot female singer in a skimpy outfit "twerking" or a handsome square jawed dude in a cowboy hat?

Would the American public recognize talent if it bit them on the a*s?

These are just questions. Your thoughts please.

I don't profess to know the answer, but this 'still' showing the audience captivation while Foxes and Fossils perform with outstanding talent says something...

FWIW before I would cast doubt upon the “capacity” of listeners (at least from a general perspective:) ) I would suggest say around a zillion other reasons with the following seeming most apparent to me.

- the popularity of the genre or the sub-genre. The Americana styles we listen to will never show on a pop chart but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a large appreciative audience. It’s just not counted in the tens of millions.

- the potential the artist has for exposure including dollars behind them and/or their ability to self promote.

- the, dare I say, catchy variable. Beyond sheer talent is there something about the music that is engaging from a lyrical and melodic perspective.

- the alignment of the stars and planets

- etc.

Bud

The studios no longer have the control they once had. Musicians and writers would labor in the vineyards of Nashville, on country roads, and in the studios, in a handful of which hits were produced. It was as fair as it could be, and it worked, in that the cream rose to the top. The musician community, for lack of a better phrase, was also an important factor, as well as the business community. Just thoughts. Is that anywhere near the target?

Many years ago I was playing at the Palm Beach Hyatt and Tom Scott walked in. He was leading the band for the "Steve & Eyde" tour (they were big stars in the 1980s).

We got to talking and Tom put it this way (I'm paraphrasing). I know there is a sax player playing in a Holiday Inn somewhere like Valparaiso that can put me in his back pocket. But I had the connections, was at the right place at the right time, showed up straight and handled the gig.

Tom had the connections. His father is television composer Nathan Scott, who had more than 850 television credits and more than 100 film credits as a composer, orchestrator, and conductor. It helps to know the right people, and helps more to be related to the right people.

In most forms of art, the gatekeepers decide what the public deems popular. Back then the gatekeepers were the Labels. I really don't know who the gatekeepers are now.

The public is very obedient, they like what they are told to like. That goes in art and fashion. And popular music is not much more than fashion. The public doesn't know how to listen to music, it just knows what to like to be in with the in crowd.

So there is a lot of luck involved, you have to know the right people and it really doesn't matter if you are good or not, auto-tune will fix your bad intonation, studio musicians will cut the parts for you, and if you are one of the lucky ones, you can be a star.

Insights and incites by Notes

"The public is very obedient, they like what they are told to like. That goes in art and fashion. And popular music is not much more than fashion. The public doesn't know how to listen to music, it just knows what to like to be in with the in crowd"

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So true, go to any concert be it music or comedy or even watch a comedy show on tv that has an audience, and the audience for the most part is so wound up that they will almost laugh at anything the comedian says.

If it's a sit down concert they will also stand up or wave their phone torch lights to the rhythm of the music if the performer tells them to do so.

"The public is very obedient, they like what they are told to like. That goes in art and fashion. And popular music is not much more than fashion. The public doesn't know how to listen to music, it just knows what to like to be in with the in crowd"

So true. A lot of that is due to "corporate music" as they rule the radio waves. You can hear the same radio station, regardless of genre, in many different cities with the only difference being the local commercials. Plus, if one song is a hit soon after there will be 15 songs with the same style and chord progressions, all played on those stations.

Another factor, at least around here, is that there is little diversity in radio stations. We only have a few genre choices. Its not like the 60's when we had a number of jazz, classical, pop, country, etc competing with each other, again do to "corporate music".

If you want to hear some good music you must get on the Internet and/or listen to some local college stations. There is a lot of music I don't like on them but you will hear artists you will never hear on "corporate music". YMMV

Largely because outstanding to you and outstanding to me are not necessarily the same.



See above. Not everybody thinks the drum machine and pitch correction is the antichrist. I once had a band leader who was a luddite when it came to technology. He used to rant against drum machines, going on and on about how they sound too "sterile". Then we needed a drummer. Know what the primary requisite was? "Has to be able to keep perfect time." Well, what keeps more perfect time than a computer clock chip that CAN'T drift out of time?



Yep. People hear with their eyes first. Janis Joplin was that last truly ugly star.



Nope. People agree with whatever the media shoves down their throat. You just need to look around at the world right now. How many people still say "the Russians hacked the election in 2016". Then ask them "HOW did they do that?" They have no idea, but the liberal media told them that it was true, so it became true. Just like the popular anti 2A arguments that discount ANY fact that doesn't fit their agenda. I have a rifle and 4 handguns. None of them have ever left the house on their own and shot someone. Nor has my car left the garage on his own and run anybody over. But the heavily left slanted media says things are so, and they become so. The same thing applies for performing artists. We get who the A&R people at the labels say we get. Self produced and indie people don't have a chance of ever playing the Enormodome that they travel to in their plane unless they cozy up to the right people, and that takes them out of the indie area when they align with a label.

Take a minute and visit the home page of Anne DeChant and take a listen. She is an UBER talented writer and singer, but only by word of mouth will people ever hear of her. Particularly listen to Sunday Morning Drive, Water In Whiskey, Swing and Running Red Lights. They are outstanding songs. (You can probably also find them on youtube. ) It's hard to find studio versions on youtube though. She is on her 6th CD and tours the southeast when Covid allows, but only by fans who tell fans will she become more popular.

And that's really the state of music anymore.

To the original question, it depends what your goal is. I was in a band that never got out of the basement. We were a really good Stevie Nicks copy band, but trying to market that was a nightmare, so it just went away. The other 4 people continued on but as just another bar band, playing for wives, girlfriends and friends of the family. That wasn't my goal, so I did not continue with them. It had potential to be at "House Of Blues" and "Hard Rock Cafe" level, but never Enormodome, not playing other people's music.

They are very good, but are they ready for the "Enormodome" (which I call "that big venue in any city in the country)? Do they write? Will they ever put out a CD of their own work? (I literally don't know so I am asking.)

Down your way, in South Australia, you have The Hindley Street Country Club. They are the best cover band I have ever heard. Outside of being an outstanding cover band with a long roster of great players and singers, they will never be more than that. And they may not care about being more than that. One of the singers, Sarah Lloyde, is absolutely incredible. Mariah Carey level talent, Aretha Franklin powerful voice, drop dead good looks of a runway model. Sadly, because of the state of the art, she will be doing what she is doing now forever. Unless someone with strings to pull can line up a writing team, a great producer, and a top engineer, she has no chance. IF, huge if, I had money, I would fund that whole situation because she'd be star. No question. Carrie Underwood had the exposure of American Idol. I believe Sarah was on the Australian or British version but did not win. However, remember Chris Daughtry didn't win American Idol either.

Now look at the other side of it. How many people DO play The Enormodome that really aren't a whole lot better than your example? What's the difference? Promotion, money behind them, clothing, staging, show presentation... It simply isn't all about musical talent anymore. They have one video where the old guy playing piano does Piano Man better than Billy Joel. But he is on a bar patio, in shorts and a giveaway t-shirt. That doesn't sell $100 tickets. And remember, this is the music BUSINESS. We can all name dozens if not hundreds of people who should be playing The Enormodome but will never have the chance. It's packaging these days. We'll never see another Eagles who just stood at their mics and played and sang. Now it's lasers, flames, outlandish costuming, more dancing than singing. Different world these days. Sadly.

One more dime from me. We have a lot of Daryl's House fans. Remember back when Diane Birch was on? She is a FANTASTIC writer, piano player, and singer. Lots of gospel in her songs, great voice for the material she writes. She made one album called Bible Belt in 2009 that was killer. 2 years later she did a digital only release. In 2013 she did a 3rd, then in 2016, with no label, she did her last release. A talent like her and she pretty much vanished.

Check out Nothing But A Miracle and tell me if you don't think she evokes Carole King.

And somehow she never made it to The Enormodome. She now plays small festivals and wineries. Sad.

I could chime in with a couple "Man, what are you doing here" talents. Dare I say that we have more musical talent then we need? Only so many big stages to fill.

Eddie,

I'd never heard Diane Birch until that clip. Suffice it to say that I now have a new youtube folder with her name on it. I also subscribed to her channel.

I'm a big fan of Daryl's House. You know you're going to hear some good music whenever you load one of his clips.
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There have been lots of good responses. No right or wrong answers. I just wanted to see what you guys thought.

Please keep it coming.

And ain't she a looker? I could look at those huge brown eyes forever.

I never heard of Diane Birch either. She is fantastic. I must have missed that Daryl's House episode.

We are big fans of Daryl's House. We also liked Later... with Jools Holland. He showcased bands and single vocalists in a live setting. Some acts I have to mute but many were very good.

The hardest part is trying to understand Jules talking with whatever regional accent that is. Cockney maybe?

Diane Birch will likely never be an Enormodome artist, but I had hoped to see her play 3500-4000 seat venues. Just never happened for her.

Luck, right place at the right time all these are good answers. Some people don't know how to get this attention. Some don't want to do what it takes. There is a lot of things you have to be willing to give up or go without or sacrifice and many just won't do it. Saw a great Tommy Emmanuel interview once where he talked about being a child and wanting to be "up there" as he pointed to an imaginary stage. He wanted it so bad that he did everything in his power to get it and sacrificed pretty much everything in his life to get it as well. Now is he world famous? Not exactly. Guitarists know him, guitar lovers know him but you could probably mention him to a number of people who would answer with "who?". But he gets to make a living playing the guitar and writing songs. And to hear him tell it, it is a pretty good living. In his 60's now and 2018 or 2019 were his busiest years ever he says.

The people who can make it happen for someone with talent, won't even look at you unless you are already pretty successful, with a following and almost a guarantee that you can fill a place up consistently. Money talks as they say.

Just my 2 cents.

You an find the songs she did with Daryl on youtube somewhere. The version of Noting But A Miracle on LFDH was a better performance than on her album.

Did you like Pesco on guitar better than Theriot? I don't know why he made that change. I exchanged some emails with Pesco after it happened and he said it just came out of the blue and Daryl told him simply and tersely "I am going to make a change." and that was that. Eliot Lewis comes in to play small venues around Cleveland and I asked him and all he said was "Daryl makes those calls. It's his band." The tone in his voice was kind of a resigned tone of "But I wouldn't have done it."

My favorite 5 were Diane Birch, Chris Daughtry, Grace Potter, Joe Walsh and The O'Jays. The last 2 because of the local ties. It wasn't until Joe replaced Glenn Schwartz on The James Gang that they broke, and the O'Jays were/are legendary here. There's a story that hoes with the O'Jays but it's best not told in a public forum. It takes a dark turn toward the end.

I was almost up there.

We were in a band, touring college towns before DJs inherited that market. As our reputation grew we started to become the opening acts for major stars like The Four Seasons, The Association and others.

Bob Seger was making number 1 hits on Detroit radio which had been 'owned' by Motown for quite a few years, so Berry Gordy wanted an all-white band (business, not racist).

We had been opening for Motown Acts including a big revue in Cobo Hall and we were the first choice to be that all-white Motown act.

Our managers and lawyers started negotiating with Motown. Motown's last offer was 2 cents per record. Out of those royalties Motown would deduct inflated recording costs, inflated distribution costs and inflated promotion costs.

In addition to that they wanted all the publishing rights/royalties and have a Motown 'ghost writer' on all the songs so Motown got a piece of the songwriter's royalties even though they didn't write a note or a word.

When our team held out for 2.5 cents per record, Motown quit talking to us and chose another good band. Their second choice was "The Sunliners". Of course Motown wanted to own the band's name so they could hire, fire and run 4 bands around the country doing concerts at the same time, so the Sunliners changed their name to the Motown owned "Rare Earth" and I have no idea what kind of a deal they settled for.

It was disappointing at the time, but life doesn't always go the way we want it to. We were the first choice and clearly the better band.

But after that our band started fighting and broke up so I joined another.

I've made a life doing music and nothing but music for most of it. I did have 2 day gigs while investigating what it was to be normal, which I found to be terribly overrated.

I never got to play that enormoudome as a headliner, only an opening act, but I got to be treated as a peer by the top musicians of the day. I met a lot of lovely ladies, traveled all over the USA, married the woman of my dreams, and I'm living a happy life.

I wake up in the morning, go to bed at night, and in-between do what I want to do. That's success.

I have no debts. That's freedom.

There are a lot of us out here. We could be playing in a Holiday Inn in Valparaiso Indiana or Athens Georgia, but we're playing music and making a living at it. Many of us will be better musicians/singers and write better songs than the international stars and idols. That's just life. The best seeds don't always fall in the best soil. But we're not wage slaves to some faceless corporation and we're making a living doing what we would do for free, even if we won powerball.

There is more than one level of success.

Insights and incites by Notes

Speaking of outstanding vocalists who'll probably never get their due recognition, here's Morgan James doing an Aretha Franklin cover;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNGOad6yxlA&list=PL3r_j6sKne0di63XNGzZL1xvAH34-XcEs&index=5

How about a little...

Lay Down Sally - Eric Clapton (Morgan James Cover)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBLeEJzZfqE&list=PL3r_j6sKne0di63XNGzZL1xvAH34-XcEs&index=6