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TEST BENCHMARKS OF VARIOUS DAW MULTITRACK SOFTWARE AND AUDIO INTERFACES. the threads that follow offer in depth insights into the following. 1. PC and MAC OS's for recording studio work. 2. various daw multitrack software platforms; includeing their performance under load and plug in handling. 3. latencies of various audio interfaces includeing RTL (round trip). very knowledgeable people, both studio owners/users and "techies" offer lots of interesting comments, and insights. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/545208-dawbench-dsp-vi-universal-cross-platform-daw-benchmarks.htmlhttps://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html(a very looong thread) i regularly check the above as the daw/audio interface landscape is ever changeing. the threads will lead a daw user to software they can use to test their own rigs, if they wish. there is also lots of added info if one googles subjects such as RTL, latency monitoring software, daw plug in performance, daw performance benchmarks etcetc. hope the above helps people. respectfully. muso
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/17/20 11:07 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Couple of quick points: Careful, the first link about DAW choice starts in 2010. Ten very long forum pages in, they get up to date. The initial data was done on 32-bit operating systems. SONAR (now Cakewalk by Bandlab) was not included. The second link about interfaces starts in 2011 and will, I think, be very interesting only to those who need to squeeze the absolute most latency out of their recordings. Muso warned us it's a long thread, but you should know it's 150 pages. There is a little info in the last few you might skip to. Here's the last comparison of interfaces I could find a reference for. Scroll down to post #4430: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base-148.html
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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matt.
sometimes page 1 of a thread is later updated with new
info. so i referenced it all just in case.
so darned if i do. darned if i dont !!.
jeesh.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/17/20 11:51 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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No, you did the right thing. I'm not sure it would make any sense if you didn't do the whole thing and then let people decide. I was only trying to give another heads-up of what it all was. Thanks for posting.
Did you draw any conclusions? I was very interested (but not surprised) to see how highly the RME and Lynx interfaces consistently scored. Focusrite and Presonus, used by many here, seemed to fall all across the range.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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matt.
thankyou. respect to you.
yes, of course i lust after stuff like RME.(stellar reputation).
but, then i'm reading this week about usb 4 (!) and the very high throughput rates.
also the new intel evo platform. how will this change things ??
then i'm considering the fact that my current interfaces noise floor is way lower than the inherent noise level of a mic. at -120 something. then i add in the fact that at best my original song creative output is one a month as time permits.
(i work very hard on each song. but i'm getting older lol.)
AND of course there are other shifting sands of technology, and the obsolescence worry.
just this week i'm reading on the net how behringer has put together a team of software developers to do a new daw in the coming 18 months.
you can bet this will cause major competitive ripples in the recording market.
a lot of folks seem to really like their inexpensive euphoria interfaces.
in summary i try and keep my gear lust in check with balanced analysis.
btw i like the GSlutz forums because there is lots of gear analysis from low end to high end.
(ps. biab gets a great review on GS if you check in product reviews.)
i'm still not happy with current computing platforms for daw work.
we desperately need cheaper and much faster processors imho.
its takeing ages. like watching a tap dripping.
in various GS threads one sees how heavy load can throttle machines irrespective of platform.
have you seen some of the processor prices ?? my goodness.
its getting like a mortgage payment lol.
also frankly i really like a lot of the pc's i see advertised as custom built for recording studios from the likes of adk pro audio, scan uk, and pc audio labs and others.
i just cant justify the buy in , so i stay with 300 buck refurbs which have given me stellar service over the years , not one failure EVER.
(i5 processors with ssd's. ).
but those custom studio pc systems built for recording studios i often lust after. particularly the rack mounts.lol.
also my concern is for the poor musician who cant afford expensive computers and/or on going obsolescence.
very much, the studio scene has evolved to "if you wanna play you gotta pay" scenario. which is sad in many respects for poor musicians in poor countries.
(i'm following daw developments on the little 35 dollar raspberry pi which now runs reaper and traction. see you tube for more details. early days imho. but to naysayers i say its cute lol.)
respectfully
muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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more on computer benchmarking.
and some ideas for discussion.
in realband itself, it will tell you number of tracks for your rig.
action>>test performance.
my cheap refurb i5/ssd comes in at 191 mono 44.1 tracks.
yes, i know its a rough idea but it might be usefull
to some if testing a rig.
if i remember powertracks has the same test.
it would be nice if pg now expanded this test , to do a detailed benchmark type of deal people could run on their computer rigs. i would be happy to pay a few extra dollars.
maybe have a dummy 24 or 48 track test song in RB, maybe trak count user selectable ,and a user could then load in their favorite fx/instrument and other plug ins .
then the user could enter in such info as no of traks anticipated being recorded at one time,and recording rates etc etc. RB would report like some daws do, the cpu useage of each plug in. and a user could isolate possible problem areas like a slow disk drive or a rogue plug in or a slow processor etc etc.
so then RB reports back a final overview like.
"this rig will play back UP TO xxx no of traks , with yyy no of plug ins you have identified, while also recording zz no of inputs at a sampling rate of ."
and several more detailed tables could follow to show stats useing various sampling rates, maybe IDENTIFY problem plug ins with high cpu useage that might be problematic etc etc.
would other pg users find this usefull ??
possibly this might cut down the number of interractions with pg support where a user is wondering why there are problems on a low power rig that cant handle the load etc etc.
actually i would like also a standalone small version of such an application i could put on a small sd card or usb drive.
because i could then visit my local computer shops that are friendly to my needs,and run the standalone benchmark app on the new latest and greatest rigs;and/or on refurbs they sell that have come off lease when i was shopping for a new rig.
yes i'm aware that some stores dont like in store testing.
so i just walk away, and only deal with those stores that WILL let me test.
its amazeing if you think about it that a car dealer will allow a test run, but some computer dealers wont.
of course at the dealers i wouldnt expect to load in plug ins and RB etc etc.
but the smaller standalone app could report such things as track counts, input max in conjunction with playback counts at various sampling rates, and possible plug in counts max, assuming low cpu useage plug ins.
eg a report might look like this .
"this computer at 44.1 khz will allow recording 8 simultaneous input channels while playing back 24 tracks with xx number of plug ins each."
that type of idea.
as we move into the future and people upgrade their rigs this type of test utility could be rather usefull as pg add more features to biab/RB etc.
(of course we all know that recording lots of inputs concurrently on a slow machine can lead to problems while also running lots of plug ins/traks playing back in real time. at high sampling rates. ).
to any naysayers i say its kinda a "hope and pray" approach currently in buying a computer.
ie particularly for a new user , who visits a store, and buys some machine that might or might not meet their needs or have the power "oomph" for now and the next few years.
not all of us are wealthy enough to buy a new computer often.
i make this suggestion because over the years various recording forums have threads where obviously often the wrong computer purchase has been made that doesnt meet the users needs properly.
its just a basic spec idea, but i'm sure you get the idea, and i feel would help a pg user immensely in shopping for a new computer to run biab/rb/powertraks etc etc and their other softwares etc.
for example maybe biab will run happily on a persons current computer, but what about if/when (per the wishlist) biab itself is expanded to run many more realtraks channels ?
eg 16 like some users want. nice idea rustyspoon. ??
maybe the benchmark runs the first time a new pg user boots up ??
what do other pg users think of this idea ??
particularly as pg adds more features over time ?
all input welcome.
respectfully.
muso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/19/20 10:28 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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No, you did the right thing. I'm not sure it would make any sense if you didn't do the whole thing and then let people decide. I was only trying to give another heads-up of what it all was. Thanks for posting.
Did you draw any conclusions? I was very interested (but not surprised) to see how highly the RME and Lynx interfaces consistently scored. Focusrite and Presonus, used by many here, seemed to fall all across the range.
This is exactly why I ponied up for an RME Fireface 800. Rock solid for me. Mind you, I bought it used for the price of a Focusrite, so that helps.
I work here
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It should not be overlooked by novices, beginners or any recording hobbyist these computer specs, issues, and performance reliability can be reduced to zero using a hardware multi track unit that users can efficiently record straight out of the box and learn to operate completely over a period of use, exploration and testing of a few hours time.
They can also reduce the cost of computer hardware and software from thousands to hundreds of dollars if they want. Every hardware multi track whether it's a stand alone or hybrid still provides full compatibility to share tracks and projects with any DAW or VST, VSTi or other computer program one has access to.
These units will last for years or decades reliably and the OS and software never become obsolete.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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charlie.
respectfully i have concerns about useing a standalone hardware multitracker.
based on past experience.
as follows. (correct me if i'm wrong.)
some potential issues that have concerned me each time ive considered buying one lately.
1. will it last ??
in days of yore i had a little multitrack unit i would take on holiday with me for getting rough song ideas down. i had a part failure at one point. the cost of repair wasnt worth it.
which brings me to point 2.
2. parts availability in case of failure.
these type of units are great at first glance , and have good reputations , and might give years of service.
BUT what happens if it goes wrong down the road ??
will there be parts available once a new version comes ?? will there be service available ??
(its rather expensive for companies to keep inventories of old legacy parts.)
and possibly the cost for a user in a remote area to ship a unit to a service centre or back to a manufacturer might be just too much. so up in the attic it goes.
3. the guts of the machine useing internal custom SMT chips.
and obsolescence concern.
in the old days (goodness i feel old lol.) even a lot of smaller studios (as well as obviously lots of well funded big studios) often did their own hardware maintenance ; often small jobs , like fixing a channel in a mixing console needing a new op amp; or a circuit card on a recorder.
but these days dense surface mount tech has taken over and is often used in lots of products.
so, the question becomes ; how long will the units parts be available ??
can the unit be fixed ??
SMT is not like the old days.
4. navigating menus etc etc.
for the older musician menu navigation can often be an issue.
particularly if there are lots of them charlie, and screen size can often be also an issue.
also if no port is available for hooking up to a larger tv display say.
charlie i respect the concept and your comments but its the day to day operational "nitty gritty " aspects that concern me per the above and other issues like transferring traks
etc etc.
perhaps for novices , in a seperate thread you might go into more detail how you integrate the standalone multitracker with the computer/daw/biab/vst/vsti tech to form a total solution. i think a lot of people might find this interesting. particularly as you have obviously quite a serious computer rig .
frankly i feel it is fair to say that every tech option for a novice has pros and cons whatever the platform. whether computers and/or standalones and/or now tablets/celphones.
i WILL put in a plug for computer refurbs. they are affordable, readily available in laptops and there are always loads of computer shops around me that "fix them" .
and i dont even live in a big city.
my 300 buck refurb according to RB will do 191 traks which i would never ever use.
under 24 normally.
and ive had it for several years with nary one problem. maybe ive been lucky. i do everything on it.
i DO see your point with audio interfaces, but it all comes down to carefull selection/buying. and drivers.
ive rarely had a problem.
respectfully
muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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No intent to take the thread off topic and to only answer your direct questions:
<<respectfully i have concerns about useing a standalone hardware multitracker.
based on past experience.>>
<< 1. Will it Last?>>
Can it break? Of course. The better question is if it doesn't break, how long can it last?
The answer is decades. I purchased a Tascam DP004 in 2008. It works flawlessly today and has never crashed nor needed any repairs. I own a Zoom HD16 that was also manufactured in 2008 and it works flawlessly with never a crash nor any repairs. Including the original 80GB spinning Hard Drive. If and when it does crash, I have complete and current backup of the contents. I have a recovery ISO to create a replacement hard drive and I have 19 hard drives laying around. I recently sold a Tascam DP-24 that I purchased new in 2015 when they were first introduced. It worked flawlessly and I never had a malfunction or crash with it. It still looks pristine. I've had Zoom H1, H4 and H5. Zoom R16 and R24. Tascam 2488MKII neo, Tascam DP008 and never a mechanical issue or OS crash with any of them.
I've owned multi track recording devices since 1968. I learned to repair, service and maintain that type of equipment. I still own the Sears Reel To Reel Tape recorder from 1968 and it still works and can be used. I have a friend that still does all of his recording with a 2006 circa Roland BR1200 and his son has the BR1600 model purchased at the same time.
<< 2. parts availability in case of failure. these type of units are great at first glance , and have good reputations, and might give years of service. BUT what happens if it goes wrong down the road ??>>
The same thing that 'happens' to a refurbished computer that already has a history of some type of failure. Which is more likely for a failure to be a design or product failure? The refurbished unit or a retail release item? These hardware MTR devices, especially the more economical ones, have very few proprietary parts and are mostly designed using commonly available parts for cost savings. When it comes to mechanical parts that are most subject to wear and tear/abuse, a switch is a switch and a button is a button. There's almost assuredly there's a common replacement item that will work as long as it can be made to fit. While it may be an issue for a service center to replace an item to use a non-OEM part, any TV or CB shop can and do use non-OEM parts for non-warranty type repairs. Rather cheaply in most instances as well.
<< 3. the guts of the machine using internal custom SMT chips and obsolescence concern. >>
The main reason of SMT chip (or any other chip) failure is heat or abuse or a manufacturing defect. SMT common chips, ie: 555, 380, lm386, etc, capacitors, diodes and resisters are commonly available and are easily serviceable. If a chip has some sort of defect, that normally shows up well before a warranty ends.
<< 4. navigating menus etc etc. >>
Ease of navigation is a MAJOR selling point of stand alone multi track devices. Some are easier than others but I'm unaware of any MTR that has navigation complexity anywhere close to a DAW. One benefit of many hardware MTR's is that the items that are used occasionally or that may be features many users won't use or only use rarely are the items buried down in the menus. If reading the screen is a sight issue for someone, there are units that do offer video outputs for using an external video device. Shop for what you need.
Regarding the day to day operation of an MTR, the quick start guide is about as deep as it will get for most users. By the time one gets to recording their third track or so, they're pretty much at the expert level. Regardless if one is working with one track or 30 tracks, importing and exporting tracks, mixing and mastering is always the same.
I completely agree with you that every technical mode of recording will have pro's and con's and one of the major drawbacks of hardware is they are nowhere near as popular, complex, expensive or feature laden as a DAW based computer recording system will be. With that said, every hardware MTR since the early 2000's has the capability to import and export recorded tracks with any DAW. Unless you tell someone, a track recorded on a $100 Tascam DP004 is undisguisable from any 44.1/16 bit audio device at those same settings. I routinely connected a Presonus Studio 192 or 22VSL both with Xmax preamps to the line input of the DP004 and DP-24.
My $100 used Zoom HD16 has 190 Tracks. The DP-24 has 192 available tracks. (Those totals are without bouncing any tracks.)
Starting from scratch with a refurbished laptop at $300 and a basic focusrite 2i2 at $160 and a Behringer C-1 mic for $59 is $519. A novice can start from scratch with a Tascam DP-008with built in stereo condenser mics for $280.
I appreciate the opportunity to expand my thoughts about hardware versus computer and I agree that further discussion is more appropriate in its own thread.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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charlie.
my reply.
1. SMT/VLSI chips.
i always understood that MTR's utilised some custom propriatary engineered VLSI/SMT unique to each company/product, and its not as simple as useing just common parts one would find in any electronics catalogue.
2. BIAB/RB.
the user has to have a certain level of knowledge to use
BIAB , thus why not go the whole hog, and record all song audio in daw software on the same computer ??
like i've been doing for ages with no problems, like a slew of other people all over the world ??
the key is the right audio interface.
this part of your argument i dont get. one has already used BIAB to do a songs bed traks on computer. so why not use RB or another daw to do the rest on the same computer ??
so you have peaked my curiosity. what is your workflow on a song ??
beds/guide traks useing biab THEN MTR for vocs etc etc ??
is this because youve had probs with audio interfaces ??
what audio interface do you use currently ??
ps. every time ive tried screens/menus on an MTR, at a music store it just wasnt for me.
couldnt get on with it. much happier on computer. but thats me i guess.
-------------------------------------------------------------
back to original thread.
for benchmarkers and particularly DAWBENCH there are radio shows/podcasts , just google DAWBENCH radio show podcast.
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Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/26/20 11:17 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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charlie.
my reply.
1. SMT/VLSI chips.
i always understood that MTR's utilized some custom proprietary engineered VLSI/SMT unique to each company/product, and its not as simple as using just common parts one would find in any electronics catalogue.
True. It's also true this type chip is rare to be a failure issue. In the event it is, outside of a heat or abuse issue, such a failure would most assuredly occur within the warranty period. These proprietary chips can be updated to new versions via a firmware update and since they are also customized to the specific hardware unit, will never become obsolete. There are dozens of items in a complex CPU system that would likely fail before one would see a failure in a chip in even the most economical MTR unit with normal use.
2. BIAB/RB.
the user has to have a certain level of knowledge to use BIAB, thus why not go the whole hog, and record all song audio in daw software on the same computer like i've been doing for ages with no problems; Like a slew of other people all over the world??
the key is the right audio interface.
This a a more complex question than it appears. First, you're correct. It is a far more common procedure to create backing tracks in BIAB, move the tracks to a DAW for further editing, mixing and processing. First, part two, to create tracks with BIAB and move them to a DAW, no audio interface is necessary. The on-board sound card is completely sufficient.
The complexity of the question becomes relevant once a user's level of knowledge in the use of BIAB is applied to a project. The BIAB program functions as a very advanced multi track recorder in its own right in comparison to most stand alone hardware MTR devices. Applying MTR recording principles and techniques to a BIAB project allows for quite complex arrangements from within the BIAB project either before moving tracks to a DAW or without the need to move a project to a DAW. Very few, if any songs posted in the BIAB User's Showcase ever make mention that any BIAB MTR features have been applied to the song posted. There are many procedures BIAB algorithms can apply automatically that are faster, easier and are absolutely commercial grade quality that is on par with any DAW on the market. Once someone has learned how to access and take advantage of these features, they have to be really proficient in their use of the DAW they use to equal what BIAB has produced. It is easy to replicate the total number of tracks the normal song post in a BIAB User's Showcase song, the number of instruments, their arrangement of instruments including the number of vocal tracks and adding the Backing vocals without ever leaving the BIAB project.
If you have a song that uses a Style with 5 instruments that you move to your DAW, create 3 soloist tracks or 7 multi riffs to comp in the DAW, create two additional tracks of the same RT acoustic guitars and then top off your instrumentation with some RT Ooh's, Aaah's, a few bars of a fiddle and another few with a pedal steel guitar, a lead vocal and some vocal harmonies, for 22 total sum of tracks. This is a piece of cake to do totally within any recent version of BIAB, whether PC or Mac, including matching up the instrumental arrangement of bringing instruments and vocals in and out. Using RB or a DAW makes it easier visually or if one is not familiar with MTR recording techniques and principles.
this part of your argument i dont get. one has already used BIAB to do a songs bed tracks on computer. so why not use RB or another daw to do the rest on the same computer ??
1. It is easier to record your own live audio tracks to a hardware MTR than in a DAW and eliminates the need for an audio interface.
2. A Hardware MTR is more mobile for recording tracks than a computer recording set up. Some examples: You can go to a session player rather than one coming to you. You can move to a better recording environment than you may have. You can go to a remote place for a recording when it's inconvenient to record in your normal studio setting if your studio is in an apartment complex or you have a spouse or children trying to sleep or you live beside a busy street, railroad track or airport...
3. MTR recording is always latency free, driver failure free, in most cases, easier and has more inputs/outputs for access to external hardware.
4. Some MTR devices are excellent for mixing and adding effects to BIAB tracks without the need of a computer using an MTR can greatly reduce or eliminate CPU usage when mixing and adding effects created from the computer.
5. Most hardware MTR's today also are recognized as mass storage devices by a computer making transfer of files between the MTR and and computer/DAW fast and seamless.
so you have peaked my curiosity. what is your workflow on a song ??
beds/guide traks useing biab THEN MTR for vocs etc etc ??
is this because youve had probs with audio interfaces ??
what audio interface do you use currently ??
I have a wide range of recording workflow scenario's available. Using an MTR, I can capture up to 8 channels of audio either in my home studio or remotely while providing an additional 8 channel backup recording. Over the past few weeks, I sold my Tascam DP-24, DP004, Zoom R24 and have sent out on long term loan to a songwriting collaborator, my Tascam DP008.
At home, I still have a Zoom HD16 - 16 track/8 channel MTR. I also have a Presonus 22VSL 2/2 audio interface. A Presonus Studio 192 8 channel 26in/32out 8 preamp audio interface. The DAW's I have are RealBand, Cakewalk, Studio One 4.6, Protools 6, Ableton Live 9 and 10, Cubase and Studio One Artist. I mostly use RB or Studio One 4.6.
I'm aware that Forum user, Henry Clarke still uses a stand alone multi track recorder to record all of his vocals. At one time, so did Floyd Jane but I don't think he does in every case any longer. Several Forum members including Ed Shaw uses a stand alone multi track recorder too.
ps. every time ive tried screens/menus on an MTR, at a music store it just wasnt for me.
couldnt get on with it. much happier on computer. but thats me i guess.
I agree with you that MTR's are not for everyone. However, it's my opinion that using an MTR is a great choice for many BIAB users. There's no disputing that in most cases, an MTR will be cheaper, much easier to learn to use and become proficient on, requires much less supporting hardware and software, is better suited for remote applications, superb integration between the OS and hardware giving excellent reliability, integrates seamlessly with BIAB import and export of tracks, provides latency free recording and can provide years or decades of service without becoming obsolete.
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back to original thread.
for benchmarkers and particularly DAWBENCH there are radio shows/podcasts , just google DAWBENCH radio show podcast.
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Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 10/27/20 07:59 AM.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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charlie.
my reply/thoughts.
i welcome intelligent "friendly" discussion like this.
even if ones views are different to the other persons.
every happiness to you charlie.
you have a heck of a lot of firepower there.
and a lot of flexibility.
re MTRs. i have always had really poor eyesight forever since i was a kid.
so i use strong corrective eyewear of course, but its still a pain.lol. thus a problem with small screens.
i was purely wondering if the MTR use was because of any problems or frustrations with the usb audio interface. so thanks for clarifying that.
obviously your a seasoned user of biab rather than a new user that typically has a learning curve involved with setting up a computer as a recording studio.
in a previous life i made some pretty decent mic preamps for my use, but now the audio interfaces contain pretty decent ones. so no point.
if one has a low output dynamic mic, just use an in line booster for dynamics outputting to line in of the sound interface.
funnily enough , even though i have more than a few mics/gear lol i rather like the tascam tm 80 mic.
once i heard it on an opera singer , i was sold. so i'm not surprised some MTRs mics can be used.
i often recommend a new user to contact a company that specialises in building custom computers for recording studios.
like say scan uk , or sweetwater or others one can find by googling.
a TURNKEY deal, where just turn it on and the interface is pre installed etc etc,
and the computer is optimised for daw/recording studio work.
saves a lot of set up problems for a new user.
but of course things can get pricey, particularly at several thousand dollars because of high end processor prices between one and two thousand dollars for just the processor alone !!
but even then ive seen the odd problem. not lots, just the odd one here and there which any reputable vendor rapidly fixes. ive never bought a custom job myself because of my tech background, as i know how to deal with the set ups and other craziness/problems. lol.
frankly, and full disclosure, ive done over 90 songs in biab. from scratch ideas to full blown songs in conjunction with the daw i use. i do everything on the one refurb computer without problem. (an old powertraks user lol.)
beds/scratch in biab then off to the daw. rinse and repeat. biab traks >> daw.
i dont believe in scads of traks and plug ins.
my own methodology is if i have to use 80 traks and another ton of plug ins for example , i should re-evaluate the song. maybe the song is just no good.
i force myself to make hard song decisions, like they did in the old days with a few traks. eg studer b67's
i contend that if george martin had just biab/RB/reaper or any other daw , he would produce great songs. why ?? because the beatles had great songs.
so if i fail, its my own stupidity.
(BTW as an aside , what happened to PG user MAC ??. ton of experience he had. miss him.
hope he is ok. highly respected on these forums. was a user of multitrack studio.
little known daw but highly rated if i remember.
i was checking out MTS recently at multitrackstudio.com. its come a long way. now versions for tablet etc. i tested it once and no problems. )
BTW. i always pay for software, but i refuse to buy products with usb dongles, because you end up with a nest of them. it ends up in maintenance headaches for the user.
respectfully.
muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Yes, this was a good discussion and you asked questions that are pertinent to a user that may be considering the benefits and cons between a PC based studio or a hardware multi track option.
Forum User Mac had left the forum prior to my arrival here but he was certainly well respected and a knowledgeable person. His name still pops up here on the forum on occasion.
I've enjoyed the conversation with you and looking forward to speaking with you again soon.
Charlie
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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charlie. cheers.
re. MTRs.
got me thinking in the spirit of keeping an open mind.
if the following procedure is possible linking pg products and other daws on a computer with an MTR, i'll tell other people.
devils in the details lol.
DETAILED PROCEDURE.
what MTR's will do this ??
1. connect MTR to win over usb. sd card instantly recognised.
2. in win set up new folder. rename win folder to song name.
add in a simple text file constantly updated with settings info and other song details as the song evolves.
3. open biab. and arrange song in biab with guide bed traks.
save biab song constantly in song folder from step 2 as song evolves.
4. export guide stereo song mix from biab to song folder
from step 2.
(i'm always doing added back ups to other devices, just in case,eg i have a startech. i often do quikie backups also to the biab usb ultrapak drive.)
5. copy to MTR sd card the guide stereo mix (bed traks) from the win song folder using mousey..
6. record added traks in MTR on the MTR sd card .
vocs/other instruments/whatever synced with the guide stereo mix now on the MTR.
all in sync.
7. when all finished on MTR, copy MTR traks back to win song folder.(from step 2).
useing mousey , so now we have in win song folder the biab stereo song guide wav. plus the MTR recorded traks. (plus the little txt win text settings file.)
8. now individually export each real trak and/or midi from biab to the same win song folder. wav's and mids.
9. open up ones favorite daw. reaper/cubase/RB/mixcraft whatever floats your boat.
and import all biab traks and MTR traks from the win song folder.
10. arrange and test mix to taste useing whatever plug ins float your boat.
11. do final stereo mixdown in daw etc etc.
12. DONT FORGET BACK UPS JUST IN CASE.
i think that bout covers it.
doable charlie ?? what MTR's. ??
unfortunately as i said about my vision problems, i cant use MTR.
but the new tascam model 12 does look nice, even though i have concerns about maintenance and obsolescence down the road.
best to you.
muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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1. connect MTR to win over usb. sd card instantly recognized.
Pretty much every hardware MTR released over the last decade will do this. Both the ones that do and the few that don't allow for the removal of the SD card and insertion into your CPU and the card is read and accessible either method as mass storage. The cards are formatted with proprietary method that partitions the card so the proprietary files and folders are separate from a section partitioned so PC's can access the card and folders needed to transfer data between the two devices.
2. in win set up new folder. rename win folder to song name.
Yes. Folders can be created, deleted and renamed in windows the same as any mass storage device.
There may be some folders required by the MTR device that can't be renamed.
3. open biab. and arrange song in biab with guide bed tracks.
No hardware MTR will do this. To my knowledge, at this time, no MTR is setup to accept the BIAB VST but that is something that can be done with some MTR devices.
4. export guide stereo song mix from biab to song folder
from step 2.
Yes. Even the most economical MTR devices can do this as well as export/import individual tracks.
5. copy to MTR sd card the guide stereo mix (bed tracks) from the win song folder using mousey..
Yes.
6. record added tracks in MTR on the MTR sd card .
vocs/other instruments/whatever synced with the guide stereo mix now on the MTR.
all in sync.
Yes.
7. when all finished on MTR, copy MTR tracks back to win song folder.(from step 2).
using mousey , so now we have in win song folder the biab stereo song guide wav. plus the MTR recorded tracks. (plus the little txt win text settings file.)
Yes
8. now individually export each real track and/or midi from biab to the same win song folder. wav's and mids.
Yes
9. open up ones favorite daw. reaper/cubase/RB/mixcraft whatever floats your boat.
and import all biab tracks and MTR tracks from the win song folder.
Yes. It recognizes the SD card either connected through USB or direct insertion into the PC.
10. arrange and test mix to taste using whatever plug ins float your boat.
Yes. MTR tracks are audio files recognizable by all DAWs.
11. do final stereo mixdown in daw etc etc.
Yes. MTR tracks are audio files. Files can also be created and imported from the DAW to the MTR for mixdown and mastering by the hardware MTR.
12. DONT FORGET BACK UPS JUST IN CASE.
Yes. Every MTR I'm familiar with has backup/restore capability.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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charlie.
thanks so much.
i figured as much.
just wanted confirmation.
sorry for so much detail.
i'll tell friends etc etc.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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