I love the idea of "tabs in the chord chart for representing sections". That would be a great addition to the product (which I've used for only two days now, but see right away the limitations on how song structure is currently handled.)
I wasn't aware that this feature had been requested so many times before. I'm only working with BiaB since a year now. I just wonder why it hasn't been implemented yet.
Obviously the colors for the chord sheet areas should be optional and user selectable. The colorpicker suggested by Pipeline I have seen in many other applications and it seems to be a straight forward and intuitive approach to me. Any new song would start with a white sheet anyway, leaving it up to the user to mark certain areas by colors, if desired.
No matter what such markers would look like, the important point of such a feature would be the independence of those markers from the real song structure used by BiaB for the song generation. That's what provides the flexibility for their usage. - Video makers could use it e.g. to mark the time positions of particular film scenes - arrangers could use it to mark solos, areas they want to keep or drop or whatever else they find worth to highlight.
I havn't come across the Medley Maker yet, but it looks like being worth digging a bit deeper. I just wonder how to get there in a DAW/Plugin context. BiaB standalone wouldn't be an option for me, having already dozens of recorded tracks for a song in my DAW. Usually I use BiaB only to embellish the songs, e.g. by creating additional instrument tracks or replacing existing ones. For doing so I use the DAW plugin.
Charlie. with respect, in any exchange of ideas , one always has to look at the other persons viewpoint. believe me, time and again ive tried to find a use for the medley maker. AND DESPERATELY TRIED MIGHTYLY TO SEE YOUR VIEWPOINT. MANY MANY TIMES ! but it just doesnt meet my needs. PLEASE look at pipelines graphic with TABS AT THE TOP OF CHORD VIEW. I FAR PREFER IT.
actually i'm surprised you wouldnt want this tabbed chord view, cos it DOES follow IN THIS CASE YOUR IDEA OF DOING ALL OF A SONG IN BB. and would lessen daw interraction.
the whole idea of tabs in the chord view, is an organised approach (please read up thread) so each tab in chord view equates to a marker in ones daw. for example if i want a tab in bb that says verse 3 or outtro or whatever that corresponds to the same marker tab in the daw. (in my case in reaper verse 3 or outtro whatever the case.)
I KNOW YOU SAY ONE CAN DO ALL IN BB CURRENTLY , BUT IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE WITH RESPECT. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. lets look at why , in my case i use reaper with BB providing the RT's etc. WHY ?? 1. i can move audio around way more easily than i can in bb. 2. i can test out plug ins much more easily. easily swapping them in/out. 3. i can lay down traks/mix much more easily, and finesse things like audio clip fade ins/outs and clip properties . as well as use automation and so many other features. just to name a few. and my workflow is faster and more fluid.
THUS I USE BB FOR WHAT ITS BEST AT. AND REAPS FOR WHAT ITS BEST AT. PLEASE LOOK AT PIPELINES TABBED CHORD VIEW GRAPHIC.
happy new year. muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
<< 1. i can move audio around way more easily than i can in bb. >> That's good but many folks are unaware of the multiple ways to copy/move and paste that BIAB has. I speculate you're familiar with your DAW workflow to a greater degree than you're familiar with all of BIAB's methods because most of these methods happen virtually before any audio is actually saved to a file and it's really easy and fast in BIAB and my comments are intended to inform users that may not depend on a DAW to complete their projects but prefer to do as much as they can in BIAB without the need for other unnecessary software. One can read through all of this post's comments and assume that BIAB cannot accomplish these tasks in it's present and past forms which is not true. I agree that tabs may be a beneficial enhancement, but the conversation has been there's a problem and deficiency in BIAB and the program needs to be re-coded and offers of users ideas for solutions to a problem BIAB doesn't have.
<< 2. i can test out plug ins much more easily. easily swapping them in/out. >> OK. But BIAB is fully capable of working with plug-ins without issue.
<< 3. I can lay down traks/mix much more easily,and finesse things like audio clip fade ins/outs and clip properties . >> That's likely true because you do most of the mute, back to normal and volume functions which are post manual audio selection actions rather than allow the BIAB algorithm to see these functions before making audio selections the same as the algorithm handles shots, holds, rests, chord changes, pushes and instrument changes. These are pre programmed audio selections and the BIAB algorithm provides pro quality level fades, transitions, and instrument changes.
<< ... use automation and so many other features. just to name a few. and my workflow is faster and more fluid. >> Not likely. Just the time it takes for rendering, exporting and importing into your DAW can take longer than inputting a verse Chord Chart in BIAB. Doing so in BIAB renders in seconds and does not require saving a track as an audio file which is a required task to export, import and move a BIAB generated track into any and every DAW. I agree that these issues are more visible in a DAW and also intuitive. However, particularly the audio selection difference of programming transitions, instrument changes and fades effects what raw RealTrack audio the BIAB selects for solo intro's and ending's and essentially selects audio that was recorded for transitions, intro's and ending's and also applies top grade, pro level cross fades and can eliminate most if not all of some cut/paste work in your DAW because BIAB is programmed to create smooth transitions whereas in most cases tracks are sent out to DAWs before BIAB has done all it can do to a track.
I still laugh when i see this BB AND THE WORKAROUNDS If biab was the only app invented I would be able to use that from start to finish. It's hard to get users out of Biab, it has been said "Biab is not a DAW" but I think it's moving that way now for that reason.
This is the most simplest thing A VST to send Tempo/Play/Stop/Loop/Continue to main Biab app from DAW that will solve so many issues ! If I could script that up I would of done it by now and uploaded it. When you click on a song section in the DAW it would automatically go there in Biab. You can highlight a section of chords in Biab then drag all the instruments out into the DAW of that section. It would open up so many more possibilities. Watch Biab-Transport-VST-2.mp4 Download Biab-Transport-VST-2.mp4
Charlie. over the years ive turned lots of people onto bb/pg. ive done a slew of songs firstly with bb and powertraks, then, later with bb/rb and reaper. but at the same time i'm a realist, and realise bb's positives and also its foibles/workarounds. ive just been patient too long/years in needing certain features for MY WORKFLOW.
pipeline "gets" what i'm saying. because he knows reaper and bb.
i love bb, i really do, but i'm aware also of its limits/foibles/ and workarounds which pipeline and i have discussed. and NO , i dont want to put new people off bb either. i love it, foibles and all. maybe your a better man than i , in that you CAN do it all in bb. sorry, but i cant. i want a nice workflow useing both the positives of reaps and the positives of bb.
as verne has discovered, and commented on , the tabs feature i requested would be an advantage in song arrangement. and would make me also very happy.
i think charlie, its just a situation where we have to agree to disagree, as i think our workflows are different. charlie i wish you only happiness. and possibly we can agree on other things in the future. have a happy. sorryicantagreemuso.lol.
pipeline. yep thats EXACTLY what i want. layers are usefull, but not like your tabbed graphic.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
<< I KNOW YOU SAY ONE CAN DO ALL IN BB CURRENTLY , BUT IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE WITH RESPECT. >>
Not to argue, but it is that simple with all respect to you. Everyone knows what a Part Marker is and as I've demonstrated, they can be placed onto every Bar of a Chord Chart. For those that have purchased or upgraded to BIAB 2021, Part Markers have been enhanced to perform the specific task of segregating and identifying song form sections while not affecting the Style. The user has the choice between the two.
It is a simple process to select a section and copy or move it at will.
Everything I've described and demonstrated are Features of BIAB and not work arounds... What I do in BIAB is not advanced, complicated or convoluted. I simply use BIAB features you and another DAW enthusiasts haven't tried or explored their potential. It's easy to see from your posts your workflow has long been to start a project in BIAB and then move rendered tracks to a DAW. Nothing wrong with that but you do need to understand that what's your comfort level and workflow is not the only and single correct way to construct a song using BIAB and there are many users that don't follow that process. It's only fair to them and PG Music developers to share BIAB can do what you're presenting as a 'new' option but in reality has been an option for years. I have no problem with your suggestion and likely the same as you and many others, I'll benefit from it. So let me say clearly, I support your suggestion but think your assertion that what I've shown is somehow exposing limits/foibles/ and workarounds is due to you being unfamiliar with long standing BIAB features that don't fit with your particular workflow.
I have no issue at all with your wishlist item of tabs and totally agree that would be a nice enhancement but that's not why I made my post. Our workflows aren't always different. I also move BIAB tracks to DAWs for projects that need that type of processing and polish. I don't think there's anything wrong with your workflow at all. It's a very popular way for those that use it. I also think you'd be amazed at the efficient level BIAB can replicate and produce audio tracks at a much faster and professional level than you've imagined so far.
A few points to consider regarding workflow comments. Different DAWs have different capabilities, strengths and weaknesses. What may seem intuitive and easy in one DAW may be impossible or cumbersome in another.
In this instance the conversation is mostly about arrangement tools. Both JustAnOldMuso and Pipeline are comfortable with how the arrangement tools in Reaper work. They implied BiaB doesn't have arrangement tools so they want the features added to Band-in-a-Box.
Charlie demonstrated BiaB DOES have the desired features and stated they are easy to use. They may be but they are not obvious or well labeled. Nor are they grouped together into a cohesive arrangement tool.
What if there was one drop down menu selection or a button called "Arranger" that grouped together access to all the arranger tools presently available in Band-in-a-Box? Would that work?
Charlie. ok. lets debate this further. a la university. i miss those days. lol. your position, correct me if i'm wrong , is. it can all be done in bb. if that was the case, why are you seeing bb users useing other compositional products ? eg mac people useing performer and logic and others. some people (eg bb users) are useing recent entrants like rapid composer, scalar etc etc. and more and more i'm seeing compositional apps starting to appear for phones and tablets. to be fair, you might reply, "they havent discovered all the things bb can do". thats fair comment.
BUT, actually charlie i'm trying to protect pg long term. follow my logic. there are many what if scenarios for the future in a strategic marketing sense. 1. as bb moves into the daw space; what if a major daw vendor with loads of tech talent decided to move into the bb accompaniement space ? some daws already have a basic chord trak for example. 2. what would happen if a daw vendor found a way to directly read bb styles, and load up the audio ? with a chord trak ? and "bobs your uncle. charlies your aunt". see where i'm going with this ? see what i'm getting at ? the strategic implications are obvious. its a very competitive market. thus i'm worried for my friend bb that ive known for ages.
in summary, my position is that pg/bb must move to a more aggressive development cycle, so some users dont feel the need to look around for other products.
to give you an idea of my own frustrations. last night i'm working on a song in chord view. right cliked over a marker and one can choose a letter. then i'm thinking "what use are letters of the alphabet to me ?" it would make more sense if the marker lettering said V3 say for verse 3. or B1 for first bridge etc etc that could be typed in by the user ie flexible. IE LARGE LETTERS. because i find the text above the chord too small. cos of my eyesight. charlie, its little things like this that bug me.
HNyear. muso.
jim fogle. actually just my 3 wishes in the wishlist would make me a very happy lad. and more rock RT's lol. you are correct , maybe its how things are organised.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/29/2012:51 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
<< your position, correct me if i'm wrong , is. it can all be done in bb. >> Yes. my position is it can all be done in BIAB. Not only is it my position, it's indisputable, demonstrable and has in fact, been doable for many years.
<< if that was the case, why are you seeing bb users useing other compositional products ? eg mac people using performer and logic and others. >> I can't speak for others nor speculate for their workflow choices nor does it matter. BIAB is one of many, many compositional tools. BIAB is a choice for composition, accompaniment, education, learning theory, creating backing tracks, creating Karaoke, soundtracks and more. It is a fair and obvious statement to say "they haven't discovered all the things bb can do". None of us have completely I guess. The most common estimate I see here on the forum is users suggest 10% of BIAB's total capability is all they use.
Like many users, I also use DAW's and other software as well as guitar, keyboard and piano for composition. That's a moot point for this discussion because this discussion is about BIAB's capability as a complete and singular, stand alone software program. There will always be tasks and procedures a DAW or software is the 'better' tool for a particular technique.
<< BUT, actually charlie i'm trying to protect pg long term. follow my logic. >> I appreciate your logic but I have to say that in my opinion, it's misplaced logic. It's always futile to concern yourself with any matter one has absolutely no control over. As far as I know, you have no demonstrable control with PG Music. You may be developing scenarios and solutions to problems that internal monitoring by PG staff doesn't expose or validate. Your every opinion, scenario and solution is a personal perception, conjecture and supposition.
In contrast, if you want to be an actual help to do what you can to promote BIAB/RB is rather than create solutions to problems BIAB doesn't have and wish for things that BIAB can do and criticize PG developers as antiquated, behind the times and out of touch with your perceived BIAB target market -- I suggest you explore what BIAB does have, test the features, adapt to what the features offer with and without the inclusion of other software and then pass these techniques to the existing and prospective customer base and target market. Use the product, learn it and make suggestions to enhance existing features and post new uses and alternate ways to apply them to your workflow. More people can immediately and directly benefit from those suggestions than will ever benefit from suggestions PG Music may never adopt or implement.
Regarding my thoughts of your marketing scenarios that some other software is going to steal the BIAB niche from under them...
Unless you have stake in the company, you 1) have no authority, voice or company commitment to you. 2) In the decades since the introduction of BIAB, no other software has come close to replicating BIAB. 3) Over that same period of time, dozens of high quality, multi featured DAWs have come onto the market and all of these companies are surviving nicely together. 4) Real competition would likely do more good for future growth of the BIAB suite of products than your concerns will ever generate.
<< ... my own frustrations. last night i'm working on a song in chord view. right clicked over a marker and one can choose a letter. then i'm thinking "what use are letters of the alphabet to me ?" it would make more sense if the marker lettering said V3 say for verse 3. or B1 for first bridge etc etc that could be typed in by the user ie flexible. IE LARGE LETTERS. because i find the text above the chord too small. cos of my eyesight.
charlie, its little things like this that bug me. >>
As it is with BIAB today - BIAB offers colors, Letters, Text and Numbers. You can use the Part Marker "Bar based section letters" feature and with the 2021 version, make the measures, Part Markers and letters/numbers quite large. So, you should be pro-active to what BIAB is rather than worrying by upgrading and diving into what BIAB really is rather than what you think it's not...
charlie. from my end i feel this discussion has run its course. i will not comment further. best. muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
No problem. I agree. I've also received some PM's that think I was a bit harsh on you. Not my intention at all and if I've given you that impression, I apologize.
Thanks for that Charlie. wishing you always the best, and a very happy new year. muso.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
UPDATE: greatly changed this post, to be more to the point
The only problem with what Charlie is saying is that, yes, BIAB may have a bunch of features to help arrange songs, etc, but the devil is in the details. I have found so far in my few weeks of using BIAB is that it has a quirky, ad-hoc, error-prone interface. It can be a very frustrating experience getting around all of its quirks and inconsistencies. Hours can be wasted, needlessly. This is true even at the heart of BIAB, the chord view. A wonderful invention, if sadly flawed.
That being said, BIAB is still a great product from the standpoint of what a person can accomplish with it, but if the developers started over and created a well-designed GUI using standard GUI conventions (please?) it would be so much better and would become a truly outstanding product. It would not befuddle beginners so much and cause them to waste so much time, for no good reason other than bad design and apparent lack of caring about the GUI.
All this being said, I'm having at lot of fun with Band in a Box! It let's me do things I've always wanted to do, like test out a melody or chord changes with a full band behind me that never tires and never criticizes. (Oops! I'm a hypocrite on the latter!)
Happy New Year to everyone! And we can all truly say: "Hindsight is now 2020".
Hi Verne, thanks for adding your thoughts and welcome to the forum. You make valid points that are applicable not only to beginners such as yourself but for seasoned users too.
I believe what may be causing your confusion has more to do with terminology and settings rather poor coding. Coding issues are more likely to either cause unexpected results or system crashes rather than operational confusion.
The Part Markers and Medley Maker I demonstrated perform tasks that some did not know exists in BIAB although they've been prominent features in the program for many years. They are rock solid, straight forward performers.
What you and others may find unconventional with my example of the two tools are the settings I used with the Medley Maker. The conventional use is to create a playlist of various BIAB song SGU files and create 2-16 bar transitions between the songs creating a long playing Medley up to the 255 BIAB bar limit.
Notice in my example that rather than use 6 individual SGU files that are different songs, I've used one song broken into 6 sections without any transitions between the sections. This is easily and quickly accomplished with changing settings. Also note these sections can be rearranged to any order desired with a click of the mouse.
When the programmed Medley is generated, the Medley Maker creates a new and temporary SGU file that plays the programmed Medley - so in my example, it plays the original SGU file but it's a simple edit to move sections about and create and experiment, add and delete the song arrangement. This has been possible I'm sure as far back as 2014. Your post is the first I can recall ever being made about the Medley Maker which indicates the design and coding have no issues.
Thanks for the tips. I'll check them out. I had yet to look at Medley Maker because it didn't seem what I was looking for at all. As you say, it's a lot in the naming of things that's the problem.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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