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Hi,
once again I'm in the songwriting process, and as usual some of the songs are good and many more are just repetitions of what i already have done before, or just songs with maybe a part or 2 which is good.
So the big question - when do you know, that you have written a good song - what is your checklist to verify your songs' quality?
Here's my flow:
1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.
2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.
3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics
4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)
5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.
6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.
8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage
9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)
10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.
The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.
Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?
Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.
So how is your flow or thoughts on creating and selecting and liking your own work?
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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You are far more methodical than I am. I just know when I have a winner. I also know that if after doing nothing but writing for up to 24 hours, if I’m still fighting to finish the song, it probably isn’t a keeper.
The best advice you gave is to let time elapse. In your case you did that a few times. I admire your discipline.
The most creative advice you gave is to audition the song in multiple styles. Bravo. You have the perfect tool in BIAB. I’ve had my songs performed and recorded primarily by small jazz groups, but also woodwind quartets, brass choirs, jazz ensembles, chamber strings and a symphony orchestra. You never know where your song might wind up.
I write instrumentals, but my songs have been given lyrics and recorded commercially, so I try to anticipate what the title would be by hearing a phrase as the hook. At least then, the lyricist will be on the right track and I can live with their choices.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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You are far more methodical than I am. I just know when I have a winner. Same here! If it makes you wanna dance or it's stuck in your "head's jukebox", you know or you feel it's great!  I write instrumentals, but my songs have been given lyrics and recorded commercially, so I try to anticipate what the title would be by hearing a phrase as the hook. At least then, the lyricist will be on the right track and I can live with their choices.
Any advice on how to find lyricists? I do write lyrics myself, but melodies come so much easier...
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You could do it the way I did. I married her.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Interesting process but I strongly disagree with "don't record anything at all"! I find that some pretty interesting melodies happen largely by accident and not capturing them does not mean they were no good rather it means that I failed to capture them for later improvement. Didn't McCartney have a story about Yesterday just coming to him and he worried that it must be something he had heard and accidentally nicked? What a shame if he'd let it go and never managed to get it back!
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You could do it the way I did. I married her. Lucky man, you. 
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I will know when I have written a good song when someone pays me a lot of money to obtain the rights to said song  Running and ducking for cover
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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How long is a string? Other than some collabs and PD songs I write a lyric with Janice’s input. Then she takes it and creates a chord progression and a melody. I’m most lucky with that - and with her in so many ways! We then put a BiaB band together and work out the arrangement in BiaB. After which which we move the tracks to Logic Pro for mixing and her vocals. Multiple generations of many of the tracks will be auditioned with typically some comping. We are not prolific with J&B songs; however, if we like a lyric we’ve written then the melody, vocal, arrangement and production is gonna happen. It may even change genres during that process but, again, if we like the lyric it’s going to be produced. And throughout that process our objective is topmost to infuse all aspects with soul. Sometimes we will run it by a few very talented folks whom we know we can trust to be insightful and straightforward regarding their suggestions. After mastering we’ll invite “reviews” by posting it on the showcase forum and on Facebook. We are not thin skinned during this process and we welcome any civil comments. FWIW, etc., etc. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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What the heck. I'll riff off of your list.
1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.
These days I "write" both with guitar and with BIAB. I normally don't pick up the guitar until I have the beginnings (at the minimum) of a song...a line or two and melody. Then I work out the chords and complete the song...sometimes in one sitting, sometimes over several. I will sit down with BIAB and work up an arrangement with those chords, rhythmic changes (rests, shots, holds, pushes, etc.)...what I call "bandifying" a song.
A large part of this is "listening to the BAND". I can't and don't have every musical idea.
The process when starting with BIAB is different. I usually don't have a lyric--at least not a complete one. I work out an interesting "backing" and set it aside to see if some lyrical idea 1. is necessary, or 2. comes to me. I've got a pretty good idea about the melody somewhere during this process or by it's end. Maybe even more importantly, I have a good sense of the "phrasing", the vocal rhythm, by then as well. This is often enough to "help" write a lyric.
If this fails to excite me, then I'll shelve it permanently.
2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.
Similar with me.
3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics
I don't worry too much about a file name. I'll name it something that helps me remember what it is. Might be part of the lyric, might be the "style" name, might be something else like an auto-name from BIAB. What I usually DO, is make copies (as many as I need) to produce tracks I think I can use when it comes to "production" in DAW. These may change certain elements of the arrangement in ways that a single .sgu. can't accommodate.
4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)
I don't write lyrics just so a song will have them. If I can't write a lyric that excites me, then it just isn't going to get written. End of story.
5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.
I will have done this either on acoustic or in working up arrangement in BIAB. Call it productive practice. I usually don't record, but not so much as a test. The final "backing" for the song takes place ultimately in DAW. I keep my options open until then. Vocals come last, but I already know how they are going to be delivered.
6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.
I'm not that methodical, but it really doesn't take me a week to know if it's something I want to completely finish.
8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage
That's part of the "arrangement" and "pre-production" process I described earlier, but I have no hard-and-fast rule or any particular genre-bias.
9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)
10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.
Nope. If I haven't gotten excited by it by the time I'm ready for production/recording/mixing then it's not going to happen. I MIGHT give a bit of extra time to give some more thought to tightening a lyric, but mostly because I despise recording vocals and absolutely don't want to have to do it again. Strike while the iron is hot and enthusiasm is there.
I've written enough to know when a line or two might be a little weak. But I consider everything I sing on to be a "demo" as far as the "public" is concerned, and really mainly meant to be "enjoyed" by me. Others are, of course, welcome to join me in enjoyment, but I am my primary audience as a "recording artist".
The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.
Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?
Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.
I guarantee you if I don't like it in the end (or something major about it) nobody else will ever hear it. At least not outside the privacy of my own home.
I will leave subjective sentiments like "is it good" to others. I'm most happy if I can get Bud and Janice to say it has soul. If I think so too, it's a keeper. I'm not too displeased with my batting average over the years, all things considered. Sometimes it's easier than other times, but that's not the measure of happy.
I THINK one reason is that I simply don't finish what doesn't make me overall happy throughout the whole dang doing of the thang.
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I believe that if you like it and you're proud of what you created, that's all that matters. Music should be a audio representation of you and your emotions. Let a couple of your friends listen to it and see how they feel cause yes constructive criticism is great but again, make music for you.
That's my two cents! Bad advice, probably :P
Cheers,
Deryk
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It's an odd thing, but in all the years that I've been writing professionally, and having worked with so many others who have done so, I've found that as songwriters we are the worst judge of our own writing. Some of the songs that I feel are my best work don't seem to move the needle for other people, and yet songs that I wrote and hardly gave a second thought to wound up getting recorded.
I think after a while you "know" that you've written something good just by comparative analysis...how does it stack up to your best work.
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Roger, I've experienced that, and learned over decades that my simplest songs are the ones people like, so I build that into my current writing. If they hum it after a concert, I know it's a winner. You can also see this at work on the number of likes on YouTube, for example.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Taking it from the point of view of the emotion communicated by the words and music, I'd say generally, working within the 1-4-5-6m framework as many do; 8, 12, 16 bar, Intro, Verse, Chorus, Outro.... sound familiar? The words convey certain emotions and so do the melodies and chord changes. To my way of thinking of it, it is a lot easier to nail down the chords, as Band in the Box is perfect for doing, within a kind of general outline of the poem. It is on heck of a lot easier to adapt the lyrics to the comps once they have been established than it is the other way around. I can see how a songwriter could adapt to doing it either way, through experience and talent, though. I doubt there a single way to compose.
To respond to the question, my thought is that when the feeling of your music syncs with the feeling of your words, you've pretty well got it down.
Last edited by edshaw; 12/29/20 12:50 PM.
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It's an odd thing, but in all the years that I've been writing professionally, and having worked with so many others who have done so, I've found that as songwriters we are the worst judge of our own writing. Some of the songs that I feel are my best work don't seem to move the needle for other people, and yet songs that I wrote and hardly gave a second thought to wound up getting recorded.
I think after a while you "know" that you've written something good just by comparative analysis...how does it stack up to your best work. Ha....Oh, the irony of our song writing efforts. For me.... I write simple music/arrangements and concentrate more on lyrical continuity/story line originality. But...whether I succeed in conveying those criteria are determined by the kind listeners. So...if I get the courage to throw one of mine up against this (or any other) forum wall for my peer ears and get generally positive responses....that is 'good' enough for me. I know my place in the music world and my material won't ever have any mass appeal. It's what we do....great creative therapy for me. Have a great day all....
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I can think of at least a dozen snarky responses.....
I will resist the temptation to use them.....
A good song.... How do I know when I have written one? I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that because the things I think are good get little response from the forums and less from the internet and zero from the folks that choose the songs for the artists....
the things I think are throw away tunes, things I write to get to the next good song, well those seem to be the ones that garner the most attention but still zero from the folks who choose the songs for the artists.
So, you see my quandary? I'm not sure I really know. So I simply write and let the chips fall where they may.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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OP
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There are so many good responses, and thank you all for taking the time to reply.
My main purpose of asking was to review my own approach and surely learn from the comments. What I've summarized is, that what I expect myself to be good songs often might not be perceived the same way by listernes, and that is really an interesting thought to have in mind. That doesn't mean I will give up writing songs I find good myself, but it is good to have in mind, that I might cut 10-15% down on the self criticism early in my composing fase.
I wish you all a very happy new year - hopefully 2021 will let us return to life as we knew it from 2019.
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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all.
I HAVE VERY STRONG VIEWPOINTS ABOUT THE SONGWRITING PROCESS.
ive ridden the crazy songwriting horse round more than a few blocks.
did courses years ago etc etc etc.
probably other people can identify with personal doubts like >>
does my song suck, am i good enough, will people laugh at me etc etc blah blah blah.
THIS TYPE OF SELF DOUBT IS A CREATIVITY KILLER IMHO.
thus my RULE 1 IS :
1. JUST DO IT, and cast all self doubt/worry aside.
my RULE 2 is :
2. TO THY SELF BE TRUE.
ie if you get off on your song thats all thats important.
YOU CANT SECOND GUESS THE REST OF THE WORLD !
YOULL DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY !.
needless to say , after many years debating with myself and many other musos on writing songs , i'm at peace.
i do my best and thats it. and if others hate the song i take my bricbats as they come.
I WRITE SONGS COS IT MAKES ME HAPPY ! MY BOTTOM LINE.
finally, think on this. how many brilliant songs, right now are sitting on songwriters hard drives around the world that are wonderfull, that remain un-issued due to self doubt/worry.
heres something personal i'll share with you all.
my beautifull wife would have me write love songs only, lol.
she likes my love songs. and i HAVE written a few.
i think ive written songs in most popular muso genres.
but at my heart i'm a bad boy rocker. not hard core metal much. and not 50's style , but, well you know what i mean.
i'm mellowing though with age lol.
i like melody in songs. and i like a song to rock out.
i also like injecting comedy into songs.
i'll belt out any darn vocs in any genre from opera, thru church magnificats, thru metal etc . and have done so over the years in various muso groups.
whats bugging me now is , as i get older i cant hit the very high notes like i used to.
SO I AGREE WITH DERYK. KUDOS TO DERYK IMHO.
KEEP YOURSELF HAPPY FIRST !
ive done about 300 originals in my life in big studios/small studios down to junk cassette MTR's.
also bout 90 originals useing biab/rb (before rb powertraks), and reaper. never regretted a moment. its in my blood.
i just like a nice life with my wife, who, btw just brought me a lovely cup of tea. so i'll bug out now with the words happy new year to all.
muso. STAY POSITIVE !!
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/12/21 03:18 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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I know I have written a good song as soon as I finish it.
Because in the final analysis, all that really matters is whether I like it. If I don't like it, it sucks. If it sucks, I erase it. Or figure out what I don't like about it and fix it.
But usually I erase it. Maybe 3 months later I will revisit the idea and the LAST thing I want is for the old effort that sucked to affect my thought process. I have been working on a silly Mexican song for 7 months. I keep going back and I keep tabling it. It just isn't coalescing the way it should, so it's not a keeper.
Yet.
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Roger, I see you are associated with NSAI so I'll give my take and see if you agree.
I joined NSAI back in 2017 and spent the first year sending in my songs for evaluation and I was disappointed when all of the feedback was about unclear lyrics and dated melodies. Once I got over the initial shock I started to incorporate their input into my songs and, lo and behold, the quality of my songs started to improve. By the time 2020 rolled I was able to pen 9 "One to Watch" songs as designated by NSAI evaluators. Does that mean I'm a pro songwriter? Of course not, but since my goal has always been to have others record my songs I knew that had to appeal to today's market, which I am getting better at. Regardless of whether a publsiher ever picks up one of my songs or not, I can say I am enjoying much more success (and the entire process as well) now then before NSAI.
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I think it is important to decide why you would write any song. Is the reason to become commercially successful? Is the reason because you like to write songs and don't care about money? Is the reason because you want to be liked and accepted by other people?
Obviously there can be many motivation to write a song. The approach and process needs to fit the end goal.
Nothing more than a sheet of paper is needed to write a song if you are a highly trained and skilled musician. The other end of that spectrum is the multi million dollar studio with more or less unlimited resources. BIAB is a tool that sets somewhere in the middle. It can only do what it is designed to do.
Professional songwriters with a lot of experience may be able to recognize a really good song when they see or hear it. Most songwriters are the least qualified to recognize a good song.
Weather or not a lot of people like one of your songs depends on who sings it. If I write a good song and post it somewhere it is very unlikely anyone will pay any attention no matter how good it is. If Luke Bryan decides to record it everything changes considerably.
As far a using BIAB goes, it is well equipped to to give generic answers to the question of what style best suits this song. It is very good at providing a easy method of construction a simple chord structure for a song, if and only if that structure will fit into the restrictions of the software.
Finally, the way you know that you have written a really good song is if many famous artist have recorded it and it continues to generate revenue year after year. That would be a good start but even that would not make you a Bernie Taupin ...lol
Billy
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... Nothing more than a sheet of paper is needed to write a song if you are a highly trained and skilled musician. ... Billy A pen or pencil helps!  Sorry Billy, I couldn't resist.
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... Nothing more than a sheet of paper is needed to write a song if you are a highly trained and skilled musician. ... Billy A pen or pencil helps! Sorry Billy, I couldn't resist. You forgot about my most used tool the undo, I mean eraser
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I believe that if you like it and you're proud of what you created, that's all that matters. Music should be a audio representation of you and your emotions. Let a couple of your friends listen to it and see how they feel cause yes constructive criticism is great but again, make music for you.
That's my two cents! Bad advice, probably :P Couldn't agree more!! That's EXACTLY what I subscribe to. I make music for me. If someone likes it fine. if they don't that's also fine. As far as critics I could care less.
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I believe that if you like it and you're proud of what you created, that's all that matters. Music should be a audio representation of you and your emotions. Let a couple of your friends listen to it and see how they feel cause yes constructive criticism is great but again, make music for you.
That's my two cents! Bad advice, probably :P Couldn't agree more!! That's EXACTLY what I subscribe to. I make music for me. If someone likes it fine. if they don't that's also fine. As far as critics I could care less. That makes three of us who feel the same way.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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When it's a song you're looking forwarding to revisiting six months from now and you know you'll still like it.
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If I could find my pen I would write you guys a note but...
If I go back and listen to a song I recorded ten or fifteen years ago and I still really like it then it was a good song but perhaps only to me.
I have a few CDs in my truck, 90% are my own recordings. I like recording and creating music. Some of the crap I have created was as much fun as the good stuff.
It is none of my business what you think of my songs. If you get to hear them and they please you wonderful. If they irritate you change the channel...lol
Well, at least I now know why I had so much trouble getting songs down on paper...lol
Billy
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Hi
Just my thoughts
- the lyrics one writes are like brush strokes of your paint brush carefully following the direction of your emotional thoughts on a painters canvas telling a story with each colorful stroke of the brush
- every word you write tells a story from the heart
- when your song has a home in your heart you have a song
- if writing lyrics come easy for you, you have talent
- the connection of the song with the performer enlightens the 7 colors of the rainbow
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Roger, I see you are associated with NSAI so I'll give my take and see if you agree.
I joined NSAI back in 2017 and spent the first year sending in my songs for evaluation and I was disappointed when all of the feedback was about unclear lyrics and dated melodies. Once I got over the initial shock I started to incorporate their input into my songs and, lo and behold, the quality of my songs started to improve. By the time 2020 rolled I was able to pen 9 "One to Watch" songs as designated by NSAI evaluators. Does that mean I'm a pro songwriter? Of course not, but since my goal has always been to have others record my songs I knew that had to appeal to today's market, which I am getting better at. Regardless of whether a publsiher ever picks up one of my songs or not, I can say I am enjoying much more success (and the entire process as well) now then before NSAI. Hey Dewey, I joined NSAI back on Jan 1 of this year. I agree, NSAI is a great resource. The videos from the pros alone are worth the price of admission. I am very curious to hear how you are using BIAB in your process, and checked out your page at NSAI as well as your Sound Cloud page! I live in Jax, but just affiliated with your Mid-Michigan chapter!
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If I may, I'll add a bit more. I "know" it's a good song when it fills the space in my head not taken up by what MUST be thought about. When I "hear" it walking to the market or pulling weeds. When I'll miss a meal to work on it. When my wife thinks I *might* have a mistress because there's a little extra spark there.
And if the song isn't "good", at least that feeling is.
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You'll know you've written a good song when people are singing it at Karaoke night.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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When sources beyond the usual circle of family and close friends tell you it’s good. Our best source of affirmation has been highly respected forum members and licenses. FWIW.
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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What Bud said reminded me of one of my best sources of affirmation.
A young lady gave me a five dollar food stamp as a tip in a juke joint in South Central LA. It very possibility could have been the only thing she had of value. Ment more to me than dealing with Bruce Iglauer.
Billy
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You know you have written a good song when you play it and sing it live and it gives you cold chills.
And you know you have written a good song when you perform it and people are crying around you.
C.Dan
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Goodness yes!
A friend released a song that included the line "I cannot imagine life without you in it." My sister and I went to see him that day play at a local bar. I brought her along because her husband went missing 3 days before and thought she could use some cheering up. (Husband's body was found a year later.)
When he sang that song it was heart wrenching.
Yes, it is a good song and a great line.
...Deb
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When sources beyond the usual circle of family and close friends tell you it’s good. Our best source of affirmation has been highly respected forum members and licenses. FWIW.
Bud Yep. The affirmation of family and friends is meaningless to me as to whether or not a song is any good. They'll always be nice so that cannot be trusted. I never announce my own songs unless a showcase where I'm supposed to talk about them. If they stand up to the rest of the material I'm doing, I'll know soon enough.
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It's been a few years ago now.... maybe 6 or so. I don't play out live much anymore since the last band I was in, a house band, broke up. A few years in a church band, a couple of backyard BBQ jams.... but really nothing much to speak of. I spend my energy and time here, in the studio, writing and recording. A few years ago.... I was invited to participate in a songwriter event by a friend who knew that I wrote and recorded. Several other writers and singers where there and the deal was we got to sing a couple of our creations and the others would jam along if they felt capable of following something they didn't know. This is one of the songs I selected to play that evening. Footsteps in the Hall I don't think anyone followed along, choosing instead to simply listen. At the end of the set, a big burly guy came up to me and told me that the song about the footsteps in the hall, hit a place in his heart and it made him shed a tear. I think, that's probably as good of a compliment as one can expect.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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No offense guys but I think I'm in my own lane on this one. It seems like a lot of folks in the forum think a "good" song is a "Sad" song. In my view nothing is further from the truth. I think a good song is a song that resonates with the audience. Generates a "connection" whether that be Happy, Sad, Argumentative, introspective, etc... When you've written a song where the listener sings the "Hook" subconsciously as it's playing. Not the verse but the hook. There are lots of uptempo songs that are GREAT songs played worldwide. Think Earth Wind, Fire, Chicago, Hall and Oates, etc... Those musicians still generate thousands in royalties every year because they make folks feel good when they hear them. And "NO Pianobilly, I respectably disagree. I think you need more than a pencil and paper and musical education to write a good song. That may work in your genre but there are lots of genres where its just not the case. Some songs are great because of the drum beat, guitar riff, horn section, etc.. and of course if the song is vocal driven nothing makes a song resonate like a great vocal performance. You can have the best lyrics in the world (which few listeners really care about) but if the vocal stinks the song stinks. That's just sad but true. There's that old American Bandstand adage ... "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it" :-) I have a song that's trending worldwide on iTunes, Deezer, and Amazon and Spotify right now. It's not BIAB. The vocals are flat and not balanced, the mix is average, the song is a bit silly but it's resonating purely because of the hook and the positive energy. I've received a lot of great comments. I thought the song was ok but audiences are connecting and telling me they think it's pretty good. http://itunes.apple.com/album/id1454291240?ls=1&app=ituneshttps://www.amazon.com/Roll-With-It/dp/B...lMMIbLzEEbkZmywhttps://open.spotify.com/track/4ZVYqEGzUOJTgGyOcWEE6q?si=4a1f8327225c4f3bBecause of the response I "think" I've written a good song :-) Hope this message doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. It's just an opinion from another perspective.
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Hi there!
I know through my gut feeling. Failsafe method for me. I am a very intuitive person anyway but when I get that certain feeling of a deep, deep satisfaction down in my belly/solar plexus, then I know I have written a good song. I just instinctively know it's finished and it's worth while. If I don't have that feeling, the song never sees the light of day or is re-worked until "it" happens.
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I think your absolute sure when you standing on stage accepting a small object that looks strangely like a shiny disc. Muttering the words “ I’d like to thank....”
Just saying!
Oh and Herb I have to point out that you my old friend have written several very nice song. I have really enjoyed listening to your work as it progressed through the years.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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No offense guys but I think I'm in my own lane on this one. It seems like a lot of folks in the forum think a "good" song is a "Sad" song. In my view nothing is further from the truth. I think a good song is a song that resonates with the audience. Generates a "connection" whether that be Happy, Sad, Argumentative, introspective, etc... When you've written a song where the listener sings the "Hook" subconsciously as it's playing. Not the verse but the hook. There are lots of uptempo songs that are GREAT songs played worldwide. Think Earth Wind, Fire, Chicago, Hall and Oates, etc... Those musicians still generate thousands in royalties every year because they make folks feel good when they hear them. And "NO Pianobilly, I respectably disagree. I think you need more than a pencil and paper and musical education to write a good song. That may work in your genre but there are lots of genres where its just not the case. Some songs are great because of the drum beat, guitar riff, horn section, etc.. and of course if the song is vocal driven nothing makes a song resonate like a great vocal performance. You can have the best lyrics in the world (which few listeners really care about) but if the vocal stinks the song stinks. That's just sad but true. There's that old American Bandstand adage ... "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it" :-) I have a song that's trending worldwide on iTunes, Deezer, and Amazon and Spotify right now. It's not BIAB. The vocals are flat and not balanced, the mix is average, the song is a bit silly but it's resonating purely because of the hook and the positive energy. I've received a lot of great comments. I thought the song was ok but audiences are connecting and telling me they think it's pretty good. http://itunes.apple.com/album/id1454291240?ls=1&app=ituneshttps://www.amazon.com/Roll-With-It/dp/B...lMMIbLzEEbkZmywhttps://open.spotify.com/track/4ZVYqEGzUOJTgGyOcWEE6q?si=4a1f8327225c4f3bBecause of the response I "think" I've written a good song :-) Hope this message doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. It's just an opinion from another perspective. The funny thing Henry is.... I went to a songwriting forum in LA back in 2009 I think it was....it was put on by TAXI and it's done yearly. It's called the Rode Rally and one of the things they did in one of the many classes there was to examine the hit, meaning #1 songs of the past year. They broke them down by tempo, key, topic etc.... to get a feel for what the people were listening to and liking, so that we as writers had a better idea what we should be writing. For years, I've heard it said.... you need to write uptempo happy songs. Stay away from the sad slow stuff and especially the ballads. Don't write ballads because no one wants to sing them or listen to them. Well, this survey decided that the majority of the last years #1 hits for that year were in fact over 50% ballads and a number of those were sad songs.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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No offense guys but I think I'm in my own lane on this one. It seems like a lot of folks in the forum think a "good" song is a "Sad" song. In my view nothing is further from the truth. I think a good song is a song that resonates with the audience. Generates a "connection" whether that be Happy, Sad, Argumentative, introspective, etc... When you've written a song where the listener sings the "Hook" subconsciously as it's playing. Not the verse but the hook. There are lots of uptempo songs that are GREAT songs played worldwide. Think Earth Wind, Fire, Chicago, Hall and Oates, etc... Those musicians still generate thousands in royalties every year because they make folks feel good when they hear them. And "NO Pianobilly, I respectably disagree. I think you need more than a pencil and paper and musical education to write a good song. That may work in your genre but there are lots of genres where its just not the case. Some songs are great because of the drum beat, guitar riff, horn section, etc.. and of course if the song is vocal driven nothing makes a song resonate like a great vocal performance. You can have the best lyrics in the world (which few listeners really care about) but if the vocal stinks the song stinks. That's just sad but true. There's that old American Bandstand adage ... "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it" :-) I have a song that's trending worldwide on iTunes, Deezer, and Amazon and Spotify right now. It's not BIAB. The vocals are flat and not balanced, the mix is average, the song is a bit silly but it's resonating purely because of the hook and the positive energy. I've received a lot of great comments. I thought the song was ok but audiences are connecting and telling me they think it's pretty good. http://itunes.apple.com/album/id1454291240?ls=1&app=ituneshttps://www.amazon.com/Roll-With-It/dp/B...lMMIbLzEEbkZmywhttps://open.spotify.com/track/4ZVYqEGzUOJTgGyOcWEE6q?si=4a1f8327225c4f3bBecause of the response I "think" I've written a good song :-) Hope this message doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. It's just an opinion from another perspective. The funny thing Henry is.... I went to a songwriting forum in LA back in 2009 I think it was....it was put on by TAXI and it's done yearly. It's called the Rode Rally and one of the things they did in one of the many classes there was to examine the hit, meaning #1 songs of the past year. They broke them down by tempo, key, topic etc.... to get a feel for what the people were listening to and liking, so that we as writers had a better idea what we should be writing. For years, I've heard it said.... you need to write uptempo happy songs. Stay away from the sad slow stuff and especially the ballads. Don't write ballads because no one wants to sing them or listen to them. Well, this survey decided that the majority of the last years #1 hits for that year were in fact over 50% ballads and a number of those were sad songs. Herb, I don't disagree with you. I'm sure you're totally correct with what they said. But that was 2009. Also I would like to say that (and this is a guess) even if over 50% were number 1 I'm willing to guess that the majority of the top 10 were not. I did a quick check on Top 100 singles for 2009 and the chart was dominated by people like Black-Ryed Peas, Kanye, Beyonce, Lady GaGa, Flo Rida, etc.. Not exactly ballad folks. For example (and I know this is Billboard) but of the top 100 longest leading number one hits of all time only 3 were ballads (Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton). For 2020 of the top 10 songs (Billboard) I think only 2 were ballads. My comment was not about number one songs but more based on the performance of songs overall.
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<< When do you know that you have written a good song? >>
According to the numbers, statistics and put up by both Mr. Henry and Herb, unquestionably the elite and standout best songs are ballads.
The charts are dominated by people like Black-Eyed Peas, Kanye, Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, and Flo Rida who are the best 'talent' that corporate music can buy and produce.
Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton each have an extensive list of songwriting credits and stand tall alone as the top 3% of such a huge and lucrative market. That's indistinguishable from the economic one percenters that have most of the money...
By the numbers and the performance of songs overall as you guys have detailed, 50-97% of songs that are 'good' have great hooks, beat, feel or sometimes lyrics. The elite songs are ballads.
BIAB 2026:RB 2026, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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<< When do you know that you have written a good song? >>
According to the numbers, statistics and put up by both Mr. Henry and Herb, unquestionably the elite and standout best songs are ballads.
The charts are dominated by people like Black-Eyed Peas, Kanye, Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, and Flo Rida who are the best 'talent' that corporate music can buy and produce.
Mariah Carey, Adele, and Elton each have an extensive list of songwriting credits and stand tall alone as the top 3% of such a huge and lucrative market. That's indistinguishable from the economic one percenters that have most of the money...
By the numbers and the performance of songs overall as you guys have detailed, 50-97% of songs that are 'good' have great hooks, beat, feel or sometimes lyrics. The elite songs are ballads.
Charlie Fogle, Herb Hartley - Thanks for the replies. The discussion is great. My only position was that I felt that "GOOD" songs (which was the subject at hand) do not have to be sad songs and it "appeared" that most of the responses in the forum were based on sad songs. My only point was that I think a "GOOD" song is a song that creates a "connection" with the listener and that did not necessarily mean "sad". It could mean a lot of other feelings. Like you said Charlie: "great hooks, beat, feel, etc.." One thing I will say is that Ballads do tend to stand the test of time whereas uptempo songs are snapshots and don't usually have the same "shelf life" as beats change, tempos change, etc.. Also usually ballads that stand of test of time usually have truly outstanding vocalists. Uptempo songs .. not so much :-)
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I absolutely agree 100% Mr. Henry. There have been plenty of songs written, arranged, produced, performed and posted here on the PG Music Forum that were constructed with BIAB audio content that had they had the support, backing and push from corporate commercial record labels could be and would be in the Billboard top 100.
I think a "GOOD" song is a song that creates a "connection" not only with the listener, but also that has a connection with a major label distributor.
BIAB 2026:RB 2026, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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… There have been plenty of songs written, arranged, produced, performed and posted here on the PG Music Forum that were constructed with BIAB audio content that had they had the support, backing and push from corporate commercial record labels could be and would be in the Billboard top 100.
… That model, unfortunately, is dead. If you want to make money in this business, you have to do it yourself.
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How my immediate friends and family react is certainly not unimportant or meaningless to me. The earliest music criticism I received was from my grandmother, commenting on a song I'd written before my age was in double digits. I was certain the thing would change the world of music and the lives of millions.
She said it was "cute".
She was much more right than I was. If there is any remembrance of that piece of song-writing, it remains only that it was cute. The rest of it is long forgotten even by the boy who wrote it, save a couple of lines--and he can't remember at all how it went.
Then there was that year when I was more filled with naïve enthusiasm than today, and gifted my entire Christmas shopping list with a full-to-the-brim CD of originals. It may be true that they were accepted with strained smiles and atta-boys designed to encourage my enthusiasm (or at least shield me from embarrassment), but I have no illusions that they were received by anyone with any more genuine appreciation than if they had been handed a pair of red Christmas socks...and enjoyed just as often (once or less) before being shoved to the back of the sock drawer. Out of a mixture of guilt and pity.
So it means a lot to me when any member of my most apathetic yet reachable audience has and can name and sing (or dance) along with a personal favorite. That's very good indeed.
No, the most unreliable audience response comes from those with something to sell.
Last edited by Tangmo; 02/23/21 01:14 PM. Reason: proofread
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Special Offers Extended Until May 31st!
Good news- we've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® special offers until May 31, 2026!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 is packed with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can transcribe an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PDT on May 31st, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Check out the Band-in-a-Box® for Mac packages page to find the best package for you.
Holiday Weekend Hours
It's Victoria Day Long Weekend in Canada. Our Customer Service hours are:
Saturday, May 16: Closed
Sunday, May 17: Closed
Monday, May 18: 8:00am - 4:00pm
Regular hours resume Tuesday, May 19th!
Today's the Last Day of the Band-in-a-Box 2026® for Mac Special!
Order before 11:59pm PDT today (May 15, 2026) to save up to 50% off your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrade and receive a FREE Bonus PAK loaded with great new Add-ons to use with this new version!
Don't wait - order today!
Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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