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To carry on the gospel analogy, I remain a TC Helicon agnostic. To me, it always sounds kind of tinny and artificial.
using the same analogy, this is one of those topics that people tend to pursue with religious fervor (or not)
All gear has its limitations in terms of what it can do to improve a performance. If the performance sucks, most gear won't fix it. But, used correctly, it can often make dramatic improvements. Vocal processors are perhaps the most difficult of musical gear to "dial in". Vocals naturally have a lot of variation. Too much variation makes the listener uncomfortable. Too much symmetry sounds canned.
The goal is to find the sweet spot where music does not sound artificially perfect, but it also doesn't sound notably flawed. Just as it is difficult to learn how to compress, EQ and mix music, it is foolish not to endure that learning curve, because the end results are so much better.
Likewise, it is a hassle to learn how to use vocal processing to achieve a natural and pleasing result, but the end result, once you know how to do it, is highly desirable.
I have noticed that a growing trend in pop music is the unabashed use of vocal processing, where the vocals are treated as an instrument, and purposefully contrived to sound mechanical and synthesized. To do this is a highly artistic and personal choice, and not everyone likes the way it sounds. But, suffice to say, it appears to be a growing trend, especially in the cutting edge genres.
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Quote:
I have noticed that a growing trend in pop music is the unabashed use of vocal processing, where the vocals are treated as an instrument, and purposefully contrived to sound mechanical and synthesized. To do this is a highly artistic and personal choice, and not everyone likes the way it sounds. But, suffice to say, it appears to be a growing trend, especially in the cutting edge genres.
I should probably add that there is another trend in the direction of singing off key. This is more noticeable among home recording enthusiasts in places like Song Ramp. You don't hear it nearly as much on professional recordings, where they tend to weigh in on the heavily processed paradigm. Bob Dylan and Sonny Bono are two examples of professional artists whose singing is neither pitch perfect nor pitch corrected. But Cher Bono is a good example of a bad example of somebody whose singing IS pitch corrected and canned.
Many of these people would rather err on the side of sounding natural even if it offends the musical sensibilities of the listener. But then, over-processing also offends a different sensibility.
I think there is value in both approaches. My own preference is in the direction of moderately processed music that sounds natural, but doesn't contain bad notes or overly misaligned phrasing. I set that as a goal, not as a claim of having already achieved it.
On my recent submissions, I purposefully skipped the vocal processor with the assumption that some misalignment sounds natural and desirable. But many of the observations revealed that I had allowed too much variation, and it left the listener feeling uncomfortable. Interesting stuff.
As we analyze, the sweet spot becomes visible. It's like looking for ghosts in a smoky room with strobe lights
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Hi marc, How's things? Hope all is well with you  Thank you for having a listen to "Feel The Power". From past posts, I know that you like your rhymes perfect, in the style of theater music, so I can appreciate the jarring effect of rock/God's. These days I tend to follow a Steve Seskin approach and look to assonance rhymes if I can't find something a little closer to the mark. To be honest, though, it embarrasses me to admit that I hadn't thought of "stone" instead of "rock"! Thank you for that, I'll let it swim around in my head for a little bit and see what happens. I think it's brilliant how comments from people such as yourself, here on the forums, can open doors in the imagination. You always give me ideas that I'm thankful for. I'll be looking at those spots that you have drawn my attention to. TC Helicon is convenient and it sounds reasonable to my ears. I appreciate that it's got that "electronicness" about it, though. My interest is writing songs and, as it is, I don't have too much time to be able to do that. Using TC Helicon makes it just that little bit easier to chase my hobby as a writer of songs rather than being an arranger of songs. Thanks heaps for your comments about my singing I'm still smiling. As you know, I don't think of myself as a singer - well, perhaps a little bit more these days than I used to. Take care, Noel
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About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Ian
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Hey Pat, I like the way you think  Noel
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Quote:
About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Thanks for the tip, Ian. I owe you one!
Noel
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Quote:
About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Ian
Ian,
the very specific nature of your recommendations indicates that you must use some kind of reference for your EQing. Can you point me in the general direction of your source?
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Pat Before my hearing really dropped a year ago I was doing some experimenting with eq screening the TC harmony track - noticed it sounded edgy and tried to take the edge off and warm it up - just enough so that it didn't stand out behind the main vocal. Check this thread from last December about what certain ranges of frequencies can do. http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...true#Post248681Hope this is what you wanted. Ian
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Like it. Nice and bouncy! Great message! Listen To My MusicRead My Blog
My TunesPsalm 57:7 My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
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This is truly is one from down south! I love the southern gospel sound coupled with the jazz guitar. A new direction. One thing you never hear in Southern Gospel is a guitar... let alone, a nice sounding jazz guitar! SG would sound a lot more fun if they had more of that!
There is one tweak instrumentally on the end that I would modify to rise up to the vocal ending. The vocals sound like it resolved completely, yet the music dropped off rather suddenly and somewhat out of sync with each other. I would polish the ending to match up to the strong vocal close and that would push it over the top.
If I were to add anything in my opinion, more of the jazz gutar fills and perhaps have it punch in some nice chordal accents using the same voice setting for taste.
RickeG
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Quote:
I know that you like your rhymes perfect
…at the very least, Noel!
everything fine here, thanks - but we could do with some Aussie temperatures.
I can just picture you sitting there now, jotting down a line then crossing it out muttering into your XXXX "nah mate, that would never get past Marc!"
I had a few trial runs with "stone" which I didn't include yesterday as the rhyme still isn't perfect.*
I very much share your songwriter’s view that what we really want to do is get the song in the can as quickly as possible in an acceptable way and move on to the next one.
With regard to non-lead vocal lines (whether harms or 2ble tracking) I wonder if it’s not quicker simply to record them - using the settings already entered for the lead line. By the time you’ve messed around with all the various settings and permutations in harmonising software you could have recorded quite a few takes.
* best of these possibly
Then there was Jonah who was flound'ring in the ocean
He started sinking like a stone
A big ol' fish just scooped him up and swam him safe to shore
God's light once more had shone
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There is a heirarchy of cheese here somewhere. Maybe we can nail it down.
The best lyrics are composed with words that express the idea vividly, but without resorting to word combinations that have been overused
Therefore, while finding perfect rhymes is desirable in one way, they are the very same word combinations that are most likely to be trite and overused.
A NEAR rhyme, especially when it manages to capture the essence of the idea, is a marvelous thing. Even more marvelous is a perfect rhyme that manages to employ a combination of words that haven't already been married in thousands of well-known songs.
BUT, a near rhyme that adds nothing to the mix except a matching vowel sound pretty much ALWAYS comes across as a failure to find the right word.
If you can only have one, I prefer substance over form every time. Vivid imagery and clever phrasing takes precedence over mechanical use of terms.
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That is why I write only instrumentals.
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Pat - you nailed it, I couldn't agree more. Apologies Noel for detouring things a bit. Keep your good thing going. Ian
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Noel,
If I may hijack the thread again..
This topic of lyrics has set my mind in motion and I can't stop thinking about it. Not only are word combinations subject to cliche, but the very ideas we write songs about are subject to the same cliches. Some of the best lyrics stand out because they approach a common topic in an uncommon way.
For the sake of discussion, let's look at the song you have posted here: a song about Jonah, a story which is very familiar to most people in Western civilization.
This story can be approached directly, or indirectly. The direct approach would be to paraphrase the existing details of the story, but in lyrical form. IMHO, the direct approach is where we are most likely to experience cliche problems, because the most commonly understood way of looking at anything is the way it is most commonly discussed, hence the cliche.
A somewhat less direct approach would be to consider the elements of the story in new ways, especially if there is symbolism that can turn a one dimensional understanding (one simple interpretation) into a multi-dimensional interpretation (many possible interpretations, and the listener gets to decide).
As I read the biblical account of Jonah, my mind starts asking questions. Is there a relationship between the fact that Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of the whale, and Christ spent 3 days in the tomb? Is there symbolic significance to the many facets of the story? Or are they just random details?
Bonding one idea to another seeming unrelated idea opens up all sorts of interpretive lyrical possibilities, and virtually guarantees that you will take the lyrics to places where nobody has gone before. (my example, however, is old territory and has been thoroughly explored in theology and song... I just submitted it as a contrast to a direct restatement of the story)
Sorry for the side trip. These conversations are so interesting, and I love to hear how different people stir the creative process.
(OK, back to the original topic)
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Hi PGFantastic, Thanks for your support! This was a terrific song to write. It came together relatively painlessly (well, by comparison to my usual songwriting efforts). I'm looking forward to hearing your next new work All the best, Robert. Noel
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Hi RickeG, Quote:
That is why I write only instrumentals.
There's a lot of merit in that thought
Regards,
Noel
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Hi marc, Thank you for taking so much time to compile your thoughts and post them. I always appreciate new ideas and new trains of thinking. I'm still playing around with your suggestions and letting them take me where the muse leads All the best, Noel
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Hey Pat and Ian, Wow! That's some discussion you boys are having. Never be concerned about hijacking my thread. The more, the merrier I always say Here's my tuppence worth... (I'm not sure if that expression means anything in the US.) Rhyme in songs (and poems, I guess) serves a number of functions. Amongst other things, lyric-rhyme can: highlight important ideas; lead a listener across the terrain of the song; create emotion; accelerate or decelerate lyric motion (which also impacts on the emotion of the lyric). To my ears, perfect rhyme has an unparalleled sense of completion about it. When a perfect rhyme occurs, my ears hear the end of a lyric thought. This is Pat Pattison's school of thinking and one that I subscribe to. When a rhyme moves further away from perfect ryhme, the sense of completion is reduced. This can be used very effectively to create additional emotion (because it leaves the listener a little bit up in the air). I guess it's a bit like using a minor chord in a major key or maybe adding a 6 or 9 to a major chord (that is, the effect of the chord is still heard but it's resolution is less steadfast). Perfect rhyme is one of the tools that the genre of musical theater often employs. Rodgers and Hammerstein works are good examples of this. To my way of thinking, the name "perfect rhyme" is unfortunate because it suggests that it is the "best" rhyme. This is not the case. It's simply the name of a type of rhyme. In my head, I compare perfect rhyme in lyrics to perfect fifths in music. A perfect fifth is not the "best" fifth, it's simply the name of one of a family of fifths and all types of fifth have their place in musical compositions. In his updated book, 2nd edition, Pattison uses the song "Can't Be Really Gone" by Gary Burr and recorded by Tim McGraw as a good example of how a lack of perfect rhyme can enhance a lyric's emotion. It's also a great song to show how using a verse with an odd number of phrases (5 lyric phrases per verse in this case) creates an unbalanced effect that again leaves the listener a little off-centre. Once again, this helps to add to the song's emotion. If you are interested, here's a link to McGraw's version of the song on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmbv9IMroM8In my opinion, Burr has written a terrific lyric and one that well captures the the longing and loss that the singer is feeling. If you look the lyric up on the 'net and simply read it aloud, you'll feel how the lyric still works without music. FOR PAT MARR: A note on my creative processPat, these days when I write a song, I always look at the ends of lyric lines and see if I can make them suggest a story all by themselves, without surrounding text. I'm not always successful in doing this but I keep it in mind because these natural stops in lyric motion are more strongly emphasized to the listener and thus are more important and more memorable. In the Jonah verse, I have ocean / rock / shore / God's. These words pass my test in that they, by themselves, create good, suggestive imagery in my mind. Another test that I apply is to look at the power positions of the first and last lines of a verse. Again, because of the way the average human brain works, these lines are emphasized to the listener. In each of my verses, I try to make the first and last lines literally summarize the verse. For example: Then there was Jonah who was floundering in the ocean
His rescue was a miracle of God'sTo my thinking, these lines pass this little test of mine. All the above being said, though, I'm always on the lookout to make what I have written stronger and better. For this reason, I really appreciate comments from other people (musician or not). I find such comments very valuable because they stimulate my thinking in ways that would never have happened had the comment not been made. Anyway... as I said, that's just my tuppence worth All the best, Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 03/12/10 03:22 AM.
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We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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. . . how about incorporating Marc's "stone" and round the verse off like this:
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