Pat,

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So it all boils down to a group of people wanting to take the rights of another group of people away.”

As you can see, this is expressed in terms of rights and not choices. I replied in kind.




It would be dangerous if we started to second guess what other forum users meant.

I responded to the words actually written by Bob. If it turns out he actually meant something different, then of course my comment is invalid.

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His point (I believe) is that the law currently allows both groups to have their respective choice. Every body *ought* to be happy, but that is not the case.

Why? Because one group cannot be happy until the other group is forced to conform to the "no gun" choice, and the only way for that to happen is for one groups rights to be denied.




Again, you’re missing the point big time.
The citizen who does not wish to carry a gun and does not do so represents no sort of threat to the gun carrier. The reverse is not true for the reasons I listed above. (post #266720)

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it seems to me that you believe your choice is superior to the other choice, and therefore the pro gun choice should be disallowed by law.



I wouldn’t use loaded terms like ‘superior’ with its moral connotations. I would keep the debate to what is or is not effective in reducing unwanted violent deaths.

The stats quoted below show unequivocally and irrefutably that, in terms of intentional homicides, the USA is well over 3 times more dangerous than the UK.
What exactly is your argument? that without the private citizens’ right to bear arms you would not be at 5.4, per 100,000 but somewhere around the Mexican level (10) or higher perhaps?
You may be right, but to my way of thinking it is an argument which defies rationality.

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The comparative figures which interest us are as follows (homicides per 100,000 population)
USA: 5.4
Northern Ireland: 2.5
Scotland: 2.1
England and Wales: 1.4
and, specially for John,
Canada: 1.8




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USA is not a democracy, it is a democratic republic.



I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me completely here.

‘Democracy’ means (very broadly) that it is the people who decide who they are governed by using some form of fair voting system. Surely, this applies to the US of A?

The only democratic republic I am aware of is the DRC, not much of a model for anyone!

I fully agree with you that if you have broken a law, any law, you can argue your opinion of said law until you are blue in the face. It will make no difference to the outcome of your legal process, and rightly so.

But this is not at all what was said, which was that no discussion should be permitted on this subject.

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which is precisely why the citizens need to diligently remain involved in the political process so some slick-talking politician doesn't crawl in under the door and change everything.
("this is the greatest nation on earth.. help me change it!")




But isn’t it the greatest nation on earth precisely because it changes to adapt to new circumstances and greater knowledge and enlightenment? Whether slick-talking or not, a politician will only be able to change the laws if he has been duly authorised to do so by the electors.

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But why do you care about our laws that don't affect you?




1/ ..because I’m curious. This is the first time I have heard it suggested here that there are issues which only forum members from a particular state should comment on.

2/..because the USA is the greatest nation on earth (see above). It is possible that I will visit the country as a tourist at some point, and if I do so, I would rather have a less than 5.4 in 100,000 chance of meeting a violent end there.

3/..I would welcome anyone and everyone’s views on both my native country (UK) and my adopted country (France)

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Nobody's mind has been changed in this thread.




Mine has – I feel I have a better understanding of why so many American citizens support this historically entrenched but ultimately counter-productive right.

If you’re mind is not altered by the weight of factual argument (US intentional homicides per 100,000 of the population vs. those in other western countries), then –I’m afraid for you anyway- there has been little point to the discussion.

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