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I've done some research also, on UK gun crime. Page 35 of this government report pretty much sums up whether handgun crime has increased or decreased since law was enacted, although it doesn't mean they will admit it- http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdfNote the government's public statement says these statistics show reduced hand gun crime rate, even though the numbers obviously show otherwise. I was led there by an interesting article here- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2328368.ecethat stated- "The Home Office has repeatedly denied gun crime is rising. Last week it pointed to the latest annual crime statistics, which appeared to show that overall gun crime was 13% down on the previous year. But in his letter to Smith, released today, Davis said these claims were contradicted by figures “buried” in a Home Office statistical bulletin, published ear-lier this year. “[Here] we find the most revealing indication of the true gun-re-lated violence sweeping Britain. Gun-related killings and injuries (excluding air weapons) have increased over fourfold since 1998,” he wrote. " So I looked up the references and there ya go.. granted this was 2007, so I am not sure how the last three years have gone..
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http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007Read the last paragraph....more restrictive gun control results in more person on person violent crime. The U.S. is in fact, one of the best testbeds for this, owing to the different state laws being enforced. As I said in a different thread, the States that the Brady Organization, a virulent anti-gun organization, rank highest in gun control also, according to National Crime statistics, match, STATE FOR STATE as the highest in violent crime. The states with the lowest Brady ranking, meaning little or no regulations on personal weapons, also have the lowest violent crime. Hmmmm Anyway, that tunnel is calling my name, and my paranoia and claustophobia are about topped out, and I'm not even at the radiologist yet. See you tomorrow. Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Quote:
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
Read the last paragraph....more restrictive gun control results in more person on person violent crime. The U.S. is in fact, one of the best testbeds for this, owing to the different state laws being enforced.
As I said in a different thread, the States that the Brady Organization, a virulent anti-gun organization, rank highest in gun control also, according to National Crime statistics, match, STATE FOR STATE as the highest in violent crime. The states with the lowest Brady ranking, meaning little or no regulations on personal weapons, also have the lowest violent crime.
Hmmmm
Gary
State for state! Interesting parallel! Thanks for posting!
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Bottom line...
I respect the sensibilities of those on the thread (and those in the world) who are peaceable sorts who want nothing to do with guns. I am glad they are free to exercise the choice that seems right to them, and I hope that always remains true.
I also respect the sensibilities of those who see the statistics in light of history, understanding that ANYTHING that has happened in the past can happen again.
I respect THAT OUR FOUNDING FATHERS FORESAW THE DANGERS INHERENT IN OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT and therefore built in a variety of checks and balances, the right to own and bear guns being one of them.
I respect that most gun owners are law abiding citizens whose gun ownership is for peaceable means and self defense, not for aggression.
I hope both groups continue to have liberty to choose the path that seems right to them. But I doubt if it works out that way.
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Danny I was talking about my 'neck of the woods'.
In the last 10 years I remember 4 deaths.
One the cops shot a crazy guy.
Two bikers in a parking lot via shotguns.
Two out of town dealers shot each other in the bathroom of a Scottish bar on hip hop night. One died. Hip hop is canceled everywhere here, too much trouble. That's is quite a radius. I drove the engine at the 2nd busiest station in the city. (There's 14). We went to lots of stuff, suicide by grenade, hangings, but never responded to a gunshot call. Ever other type of medical call. We had part of the downtown area.
You have to examine the situation you are in. If I thought there was a threat, I'd lock the doors. Despite gun laws, we do have guns.
After all the debate here we have established that in some states you can walk in a buy a handgun, and elsewhere you can not. Some states arrest and jail you for having a gun and others give you a permit and encourage you to play Roy Rogers. Some states have almost the same laws as Canada when it comes to guns.
That here 3 days of education is required to buy a gun.
I don't see a lot of difference, other than many people think that not having a gun in your pocket encourages criminals.
There are routine shootings in Toronto. From what I read, 95 percent know gang members over drugs. Don't go out in those areas of town at night and taunt them. I lived 3 times in Toronto. I've been out at all hours downtown and never saw a problem.
No matter how hard I try, I do not think I can find a person in my city killed with a handgun, except the two gang guys, and the 'suicide by cop.'
The ATF, RCMP, and local cops just busted a major handgun smuggling operation where guns were being brought across the border. We'd be safer if that flow stopped than if they let us buy a gun and put it in the glove box.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I also wish the best for each country, and remain optimistic.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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It's probably about time for a thread wrap-up.
I'll just say this: I own firearms. They are all legal firearms under the Federal Firearms Act of 1934. I currently have the Constitutional right to own these firearms, as long as I use them legally under the laws of my local, State,and Federal Govenments. I am not any kind of 'gun nut' nor do I ascribe to the 'gun culture'. I haven't hunted for about 20 years, but I certainly would start again if I got hungry enough. I enjoy shooting my firearms under safe conditions because it is a skill that may be vitally important to me one day. I hope not.
I respect the views of those that don't feel the need or the want to own or shoot firearms. There is liitle chance of them being in a life-threatening situation where a firearm might prove their salvation, and I do understand that. All I ask is that those folks please understand that those of us that do own and shoot firearms of various kinds are not wacky murderers or crazy cowboys. We are law-abiding citizens of of a nation which has a Constitution that guarantees us the right to have those firearms. It's our choice to own them. It's also a choice not to own them. I never berate or demean or act in a condescending way towards those that don't own 'guns' because I do respect that viewpoint. All I ask is that you respect my viewpoint as well and perhaps some reasons for it.
And yes, more on topic...the sound of a 1911A1 Colt is indeed music to my ears.
Fire, the wheel, and the I IV V -- foundations of civilization.
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Last edited by Gary Curran; 03/13/10 01:14 PM.
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Quote:
In my opinion, the answer is exactly the same for both sets of crimes. Line the perps up, and end their lives. Do it by lethal injection, gas chamber, or yes, even shoot them. I guarantee if you did that, publically, for a year, both criminal instances would drop...drastically.
Ohh, don't mess with Gary... 
I agree in principle but the problem is the first time an innocent person is executed by being framed by a crooked cop, the whole scheme would blow up in everybody's face. Look at all the people who've been rotting on death row or are serving life sentences who've been exonorated by DNA testing and were convicted by questionable eyewitness testimony. I'm the farthest from some bleeding heart but a civilized country can't allow that to happen. A great thing to look up is the Innocence Project. It's pretty eyeopening to read just how many people were found innocent. This is why the former right wing death penalty Governer of Illinois who didn't run for reelection maybe 8 years or so ago commuted the sentences of a bunch of death row people to life (didn't release them, just commuted the sentences to life in prison) because during his term several had been found innocent by DNA and he just couldn't let that stand.
There are no obvious easy answers here in spite of what some of us think.
Bob
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Gary, Quote:
In my opinion, the answer is exactly the same for both sets of crimes. Line the perps up, and end their lives. Do it by lethal injection, gas chamber, or yes, even shoot them. I guarantee if you did that, publically, for a year, both criminal instances would drop...drastically.
That's a little over the top bro.
Especially in light of the FACT that so many of the cops are crooked. And our justice system is flawed, to say the least.
We need to have less power and control by the government. Not the ability to summarily line people up and execute them.
I'm all for punishment for the crime. But statements like that lead to people reaching wrong conclusions about gun owners.
I've been with you up till now.
One of the main things our founders feared the most was too much power in the hands of the government. It's still a concern for me.
That was one of the main reasons for the second amendment.
Bob
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Last edited by Gary Curran; 03/13/10 01:15 PM.
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Gary,
Piss poor analogy.
I'm glad the things you propose won't ever come to pass.
Get a grip man!
Bob
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Last edited by Gary Curran; 03/13/10 01:16 PM.
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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I find this whole topic sort of ironic. A lot of us complained about one of our members preaching the word of God on this Forum yet we go on & on about the right to carry weapons to kill other human beings. Sort of says something about were our society is at.
5. Thou Shalt Not Kill
There are no exceptions to this that I know of.
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Yeah the earth needs less people, but we can solve that with death penalty for parking violations (Steve Martin)..it is funny as comedy, but when you seriously want to start death penalty for smaller and smaller infractions, it is disconcerting.
I did not read you examples, lack of time right now, but I will say that each of the people is entitled to a trial by peers. It is another one of our basic laws.. the only time a death can be legal without a trial is if it happens in self defense when it is an either/or situation (in my eyes). I know some castle laws can be interpreted otherwise, but I don't think that was the intent of the laws.
Last edited by rharv; 03/14/10 04:30 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Gary, Quote:
Let me ask a question. Coast Guard intercepts a 'go-fast' boat coming in. They stop the boat...a .50 cal in the engine works real nice for that because the boat has failed to heed repeated warnings to stop to be boarded. Video cameras are rolling, and a cutter or other LE boat arrives on scene. The boat is inspected and 500 pounds of cocaine and 2,000 pounds of marijuana are found on board. Is there really any doubt in anyone's mind that these people are 'innocent?'
A truck attempts to cross the border just went of Vancouver, B.C. and a tip to the Customs people of both Canada and the U.S. reveals that there is the possibility of a cache of illegal weapons is loaded in the truck, along with 20 tons of Washington apples. It's a private trucking company, the driver was singled out by name, and has a 20 year history of known ties to a White Supremacist organization. He freely admits, out of arrogance, out of conceit, out of whatever, that yes, he was carrying them.
Why would those two situations not warrant and expedited death sentence?
For starters, neither one if those crimes is a capital crime. We don't live in some tin pot dictatorship where you can line up and murder anyone you want to.
The same Constitution that we've referred to guaranteeing our 2nd amendment right also guarantees rights to the criminals in both of your examples. We can't pick and choose which parts of it we like and which parts we don't. That would make us guilty of the same type of hypocrisy as the people who want to take away our right to bear arms.
It's time for me to exit this thread. It has gone from a well reasoned discussion into a realm I don't want any part of.
Bob
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Quote:
It's time for me to exit this thread. It has gone from a well reasoned discussion into a realm I don't want any part of.
Bob
This is a recurring theme in discussions of the heated sort. But I think there is real value in giving all participants the leeway to express whatever point of view they have, even when some people in the discussion see it as offensive. Why?
Because no matter WHAT your opinion is, SOMEBODY thinks it's offensive! If we live by the rule of forbidding talk that offends somebody else, then nobody would ever be allowed to talk.
By analogy, discussion is much like pouring hot water into a cup full of cold water. In both cases, the substance is water, but the temperatures are extreme in opposing directions. If you perform this as an experiment, and test the final temperature of the water, it will NEVER be as hot as the hottest nor as cold as the coldest. Mixing extremes, at least in nature, always seems to have the effect of bringing both extremes toward the middle.
Using the same analogy, if you put the resulting mix of water in the freezer, it will all become colder... if you put it in a kettle on the stove, it will all become hotter. This is the functional equivalent of eliminating one point of view in order to homogenize the whole.
Personally, I like different points of view. And discussion exposes me to things I would not have considered otherwise. Discussion is good. It keeps us centered.
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Man, I'm just surprised no one's been shot on this thread yet.....hehehe
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Deleted
Last edited by Gary Curran; 03/13/10 01:16 PM.
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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To All,
I value this discussion, because ALL of us have made points which to some may consider to be valid. The other thing is that I've seen no name calling, no personal attacks, or denigration of others as I've seen in other threads.
If Bob FP doesn't agree with me, and feels that I'm out in left field, that's fine. He hasn't told me that I'm insane, or that I should have my head examined, or some such, and I can see his point of view, and I respect it.
If others feel that I may be over the edge, they can say that too, and so far, I've not seen anything that has offended me, personally.
I will grant you that I've moved off the topic from the OP, but I guess crime will do that to me.
I'll try to refrain from posting further in this thread.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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