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Just curious if anyone posting in this thread - these 18 pages, has had their opinion moved in a different direciton; ever so slightly?
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Sure, because I have learned things in this thread, my opinion was altered to some extent.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
Just curious if anyone posting in this thread - these 18 pages, has had their opinion moved in a different direciton; ever so slightly?
it is almost impossible to expose oneself to other people's thoughts without being changed somewhat in the process. Which is exactly why such discussion is so valuable, even if it doesn't appear on the surface to make an immediate difference.
On TV, every conflict must be created, developed and resolved in 60 minutes, (minus commercials). Life Ain't quite so tidy. We have to act in good faith, believing that the principles we talk about are bigger and more enduring than we are. We also walk with the conviction that even when we don't see immediate change, that doesn't mean that discussion has not put something valuable in motion.
A large ship travelling at full speed takes time and distance to turn around; and so it is with ideology
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here's a philosophical question my wife and I can't agree on. Since we have the great minds of at least 4 continents assembled here, maybe we can derive a reasonable answer to this age old question:
Cheet-ohs : are they good or bad?
My wife says they're bad because:
1) no nutritional value
2) they're addicting
3) they make your fingers orange, which in turn makes the towels orange
4) they make your butt big(ger)
5) they are more expensive, pound for pound, than nutritional food
But *I* say they're good because:
1) they're tasty
PS, you can participate even if your opinion never changes
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Quote:
Just curious if anyone posting in this thread - these 18 pages, has had their opinion moved in a different direciton; ever so slightly?
IMHO, these discussions have yielded some extremely profound observations on all sides of the issues. And it isn't about changing anybody's mind in the first place. Discussion is about expanding one's own awareness by comparing multiple points of view.
Those who want to expand their own awareness tend to embrace such discussions, as they aren't offended by opinions that differ from their own.
On the other hand, people who are intolerant of opinion that isn't exactly like theirs tend to dislike such discussions, because they can't handle hearing opinions they don't agree with. The classic response of intolerance is to shut down the discussion so NOBODY can talk about the opinions they don't like.
you will be sure to hear things you don't agree with in an open forum. Yet, I believe discussion is important, especially in democratic societies where the media is in a position to spin the news to influence the public's interpretation of the events being reported.
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Pat,
Is it wrong to focus control in the area that might be a problem? No, it isn't. And placing police officers outside of bars to catch drunk drivers is not a bad thing...BUT, INNOCENT until PROVEN Guilty, which means the officer must OBSERVE a crime being committed.
To stop a line of traffic, to do random testing for drunk driving DOES NOT presume INNOCENCE, it DOES presume GUILT. You are simply LOOKING for the person whom you believe is committing a crime.
At that point, you are completely backwards, and once that door is opened, then everything else is open for change as well.
Profiling is the same thing. We think this group of individuals, or this ethnic group, is more likely to be ones committing a crime, so we are going to randomly stop them to see if they are committing a crime. That is so far wrong it's not even funny, we might as well go back to the days before the Emancipation Proclamation and decide that if we don't like a certain group of people, or race of people, or whatever, that we're going to take their rights away from them.
There was a little guy over in Germany who did that.....
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Scott,
No, my opinions haven't changed one iota. I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and if they can't live with that, too bad.
I say that humorously.
But, for the most part, in this thread, no, my opinions have not changed...so far. No points have been made that would cause me to re-examine my core beliefs. I AM open to contrasting ideas however, because I am willing to change, if that is necessary. But, as of right now, I have found nothing to change my opinions expressed in this thread so far.
You will note, of course, that I have removed posts because some people have found them inflammatory, that was done not for me, but those others who are offended by my opinions. I can at least try to make the world easier to live in, and not try to force my ideas and opinions on people who can not see them as I do, but it does not change what was there to begin with.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Quote:
Profiling is the same thing. We think this group of individuals, or this ethnic group, is more likely to be ones committing a crime, so we are going to randomly stop them to see if they are committing a crime. That is so far wrong it's not even funny, we might as well go back to the days before the Emancipation Proclamation and decide that if we don't like a certain group of people, or race of people, or whatever, that we're going to take their rights away from them.
There was a little guy over in Germany who did that.....
Gary
I'm curious to know if you think that's what I'm advocating... because if so, then I'm not communicating very well. I do NOT think singling out a group for bullying is remotely OK. I would hope that my verbose replies had differentiated between those two positions.
I'm fishing for ideas on how to accomplish the obviously good goal of preventing crime without simultaneously stomping on anybody's rights
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Gotta agree with Gary, we are tredding the line (and crossing it) with those checkpoints.
It is 'assumed guilty', otherwise they have no reason to pull everyone over. If 'assumed innocent' there is no reason for the stop.
I have personally never seen one.
Good analogy. However the people in the article I mentioned were not even possibly endangering anyone in any way.
They took public transportation and were not otherwise doing anything to draw suspicion, according to the article it was just a wide age group that got searched.
Also like to say I am impressed with how people have handled themselves here. This many pages and no screaming or vicious flaming.
I was one person who PM'd Gary to say I thought something he said was offensive. He edited it, which took a lor of compassion for views of others. I appreciate that. That was just one of the behind-the-scenes displays of character shown so far.
I also edited my response to him so no sign of any of it exists now, out of respect for Gary.
Last edited by rharv; 03/21/10 03:13 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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The presumption of innocence.
It looks like the US and the UK (and probably every other country which pays even lip service to the presumption of innocence) has the samebasic areas of non-compliance as we do here in Oz:
Tax law and the motor traffic act. In both areas of law, the legislation is written such that accusations can be made and you must prove your innocence, your accusers do not have to prove your guilt.
There are other areas in most countries, but these two are common. Why? Because the government gets their hand into your wallet through them.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
I'm fishing for ideas on how to accomplish the obviously good goal of preventing crime without simultaneously stomping on anybody's rights
Individually. If you see a 'profile' of a group that is struggling, volunteer and change their lives while they are young. Don't try it when they are 16 and initiated into the gang already.. be proactive with youth.
Just an idea. But it takes volunteers.
It has worked every time I've seen it tried.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
The presumption of innocence.
It looks like the US and the UK (and probably every other country which pays even lip service to the presumption of innocence) has the samebasic areas of non-compliance as we do here in Oz:
Tax law and the motor traffic act. In both areas of law, the legislation is written such that accusations can be made and you must prove your innocence, your accusers do not have to prove your guilt.
There are other areas in most countries, but these two are common. Why? Because the government gets their hand into your wallet through them.
That is why these checkpoints are disturbing here. They are a recent phenomena, and previously a lot of us thought the police needed a reason to pull you over and check you. It is one of those things we are allowing to happen just recently, and I think a lot of us are weighing the value of it. I think most of us know the implication of allowing it, and also the cost of fighting it.
I'm more of a 'personal freedom/rights' guy than a 'protect everyone at all costs' guy. We take risks when we go out on the road. Should we slowly give up our freedom for reduced risk?
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Pat,
I do not think that you are advocating anything. I understood your post, but others may not, so I had to go back and go through that.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Quote:
Pat,
I do not think that you are advocating anything. I understood your post, but others may not, so I had to go back and go through that.
Gary
Thanks Gary. It's a good thing to ask for clarification. It keeps the thread on track and minimizes the chance for misunderstanding.
(Aside: I'm watching a NatGeo special on 9/11 ... very interesting stuff in light of this discussion)
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm fishing for ideas on how to accomplish the obviously good goal of preventing crime without simultaneously stomping on anybody's rights
Individually. If you see a 'profile' of a group that is struggling, volunteer and change their lives while they are young. Don't try it when they are 16 and initiated into the gang already.. be proactive with youth.
Just an idea. But it takes volunteers.
It has worked every time I've seen it tried.
I would go so far as to say that individual intervention at any age is one thing that works. Corny as it sounds "lighting one small candle" still results in more light than total darkness
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Quote:
The presumption of innocence.
It looks like the US and the UK (and probably every other country which pays even lip service to the presumption of innocence) has the samebasic areas of non-compliance as we do here in Oz:
Tax law and the motor traffic act. In both areas of law, the legislation is written such that accusations can be made and you must prove your innocence, your accusers do not have to prove your guilt.
There are other areas in most countries, but these two are common. Why? Because the government gets their hand into your wallet through them.
perhaps the best argument for the conservative mantra of limited government
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Quote:
That is why these checkpoints are disturbing here. They are a recent phenomena, and previously a lot of us thought the police needed a reason to pull you over and check you. It is one of those things we are allowing to happen just recently, and I think a lot of us are weighing the value of it. I think most of us know the implication of allowing it, and also the cost of fighting it.
I'm more of a 'personal freedom/rights' guy than a 'protect everyone at all costs' guy. We take risks when we go out on the road. Should we slowly give up our freedom for reduced risk?
It is possible that there *IS* a reason that the general public does not know about. But how would citizens differentiate between harrassment and a real reason without insider knowledge about the reason for the roadblock? In the case of reference, they may have had a tip about 2 gangs meeting at a specific location for a clash.. (if that were in fact the case, would it affect your view of the event?)
whether or not this is offensive to me depends on whether or not I trust the motives of the police conducting the operation. Best case, they are honestly looking for a fugitive or drunk driver in the interest of public safety. In that case, people who are not doing anything have nothing to be concerned about.
However, if they have an alternate agenda of generating income or profiling , then I would not like it. THe problem is in knowing their agenda. And I'm not real big on "trust me" as a reason for anything...
Last edited by Pat Marr; 03/21/10 06:57 PM.
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Quote:
Also like to say I am impressed with how people have handled themselves here. This many pages and no screaming or vicious flaming.
I was one person who PM'd Gary to say I thought something he said was offensive. He edited it, which took a lor of compassion for views of others. I appreciate that. That was just one of the behind-the-scenes displays of character shown so far.
I also edited my response to him so no sign of any of it exists now, out of respect for Gary.
I agree. A lot of different people have contributed to the discussion. It has been uncommonly civil. And the respect shown by various individuals who removed posts once they realized someone was offended... that's as good as it gets in a discussion forum. Musicians are good people.
And if you think about it, music is the ultimate conveyor of ideas. The ability to navigate the world of ideas should be very useful to a songwriter. If we learn how to make a statement without offending, and cause people to step back and say "hmmm. I never thought of it that way before..." that is powerful stuff for a songwriter.
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Quote:
However, if they have an alternate agenda of generating income or profiling , ...
Worst case of this I ever saw was in Niagara Falls Ontario on a Sunday morning in '02.
After stopping at a red light I turned right and about 150 ft up the road was a cop waiving people into a parking lot. I thought maybe it was some kind of raod block or checkpoint. Instead they were handing out prewritten speeding tickets. for 10 over. Mind you I had turned the corner afetr a full stop and with the wife and kids and luggage in the car there was no way I had hit 45 kmh that quickly. Didn't matter.
You could pay the $110 full tickey, or go to the station for 'traffic school' (which consisted of a written test that you graded yourself) and then pay only $50 for the test, or you could come back and fight the ticket which was about a 5 hour drive to go to court.
They wouldn't accept US money, but there was conveniently a store across the street that would exchange. When you paid the $50 the ticket was ripped up right in front of you (no more evidence of it ever happening) and the money went into an unmarked desk drawer.
Then you were free to go after your donation. There were about 20 cars I saw pulled over, most with US plates. Wife and kids witnessed this display of public service.
Long story but worth mentioning.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
Quote:
However, if they have an alternate agenda of generating income or profiling , ...
Worst case of this I ever saw was in Niagara Falls Ontario on a Sunday morning in '02.
After stopping at a red light I turned right and about 150 ft up the road was a cop waiving people into a parking lot. I thought maybe it was some kind of road block or checkpoint. Instead they were handing out prewritten speeding tickets. for 10 over. Mind you I had turned the corner after a full stop and with the wife and kids and luggage in the car there was no way I had hit 45 kmh that quickly. Didn't matter.
Long story but worth mentioning.
indeed, it is worth mentioning! You suspect it happens, but to hear actual details of such blatant abuse of power is really infuriating.
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