I have just returned to using my 2015 version of BB (Windows 10) with plans to upgrade, but I'm having problems hearing the songs I create in tune when I play over them with a Bb instrument (tenor sax).
I am inputting the chords from a Bb Real book, and setting the key signature as given in the music (I'm not transposing, but I do check 'Transpose and Set Key Signature').
I have the sound card set for 16 bit 44100htz under sound in Control Panel. I have 'Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device' checked.
I have checked the tuning of the saxophone and I'm playing in tune.
Nevertheless, there appears to be dissonance between the chords of the BB song (I usually use real-track styles) and the notes I'm playing. It may not be a lot, perhaps a semitone or less, but it's just not 'quite right'. I have even tried just playing the chord root as the chords change, but it still sounds 'off'.
I would like to know if there is something basic (and silly) I'm doing wrong. I have a vague feeling that I noticed this issue the last time I used BB, but it was sometime ago.
HI Stephen As you say you use mainly realtracks, are you using ones that require a lot of tempo change, as this is achieved by time stretch and pitch changing it may introduce some problems if the tempo is far from the original
Is it as bad with Midi styles?
Member Mat, is probably your man here as he arranges for a band and often has to at least print out in instrument pitch. Not certain if he transposes for practice parts. I know he works with a wind controller so I guess he works with midi Just a thought Mike
Go to your sound settings and uncheck "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" - this option can cause other programs to change the actual sample rate which can cause tuning issues. Make sure your input and output devices are both set to 44,100hz 16-bit as well, that can help.
HI Stephen As you say you use mainly realtracks, are you using ones that require a lot of tempo change, as this is achieved by time stretch and pitch changing it may introduce some problems if the tempo is far from the original
Hi Mike and thanks for the reply. No, I'm not changing tempo at all in the songs I've worked on so far.
Originally Posted By: Mike Head
Is it as bad with Midi styles?
I haven't tried it really, although I do have trouble getting some midi sounds to play at all (such as vocal sounds).
A second idea is to verify the computer's Windows 10 control center audio settings match the default audio settings for Band-in-a-Box.
The Windows 10 control center audio settings have a terrible habit of defaulting to 24 bit depth and/or 48 kHz after an update.
The default Band-in-a-Box audio settings for Band-in-a-Box are 16 bit depth and a sample rate of 44.1 kHz.
Hello Jim and thanks for the welcome back. I've just checked the output sound settings and they are still showing 16 bit / 44.1 KHz. I had actually only just set them when I tried the sax with the backing track. Although I fairly sure it didn't sound so out of tune yesterday!
Go to your sound settings and uncheck "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" - this option can cause other programs to change the actual sample rate which can cause tuning issues. Make sure your input and output devices are both set to 44,100hz 16-bit as well, that can help.
Thanks. I did that as you suggested, but nothing seems to have changed in terms of the mismatch between the tuning of the computer and the sax.
Thanks for all the help so far, everyone. Unfortunately, it still doesn't quite sound right to my ears. I'll check the chords on the charts I'm using, and then have my ears looked at!
I am inputting the chords from a Bb Real book, and setting the key signature as given in the music (I'm not transposing, but I do check 'Transpose and Set Key Signature').
See if this helps...
Under "Preferences" (#1 on the image below), select "Arrange" (#2) and then set the "Concert Pitch Adjust" to -2 (#3). This will lower BIAB's playback by 2 semitones.
Provided the keys of the songs in your Bb book align with the chords, then this should work (e.g., a song is in the key of C and the tonic chord is C).
Just tuning into this thread (ha) and I see my name was invoked. Yes, I play a bunch of horns in different keys, and write for everything from brass choir and chamber orchestra to jazz ensemble and symphony orchestra.
I don't think the problem here is in the system, as in the sample or bit rate. Nor MIDI versus RealTracks. Nor your ears. I believe you that it sounds bad.
I think Noel is closer to the right answer, but I would not adjust the concert pitch as the remedy here. It will fix this song but mess up all your other songs, because I think that value sticks.
Stephen, here's the problem. You took a fakebook with songs written for a Bb instrument and entered that into BIAB. Because your fakebook is not in concert pitch, you will have to make adjustments most people do not. For example, if your fakebook has a song in the key of G, the song is actually in Concert F but BIAB is still playing it in G because that's what you entered. When you then read along with your tenor, your tenor sound is one full step (two half-steps) low. See if that's what you're hearing.
BIAB is kind of designed to be used the other way around. I always get fakebooks in concert pitch and enter songs in concert pitch and then use the BIAB transposition to adjust for the instrument that is playing along.
So, since you've already entered the song from Bb instrument sheet music, first transpose your song down one whole step (example G to F, or C to Bb). Then use one of several ways in BIAB to tell the program you want to see sheet music adjusted for tenor sax (but not change the pitch of playback). This happens to be +14 half-steps in the pull-down, since a tenor sax sounds an octave and a major second lower than written, or in other words, a ninth lower. Depending on the resulting range of the song, you can also try +2 which works for soprano sax or trumpet, other instruments pitched in Bb.
If you want to avoid head-scratching situations, always think in terms of concert pitch and adjust from there.
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Under "Preferences" (#1 on the image below), select "Arrange" (#2) and then set the "Concert Pitch Adjust" to -2 (#3). This will lower BIAB's playback by 2 semitones.
Provided the keys of the songs in your Bb book align with the chords, then this should work (e.g., a song is in the key of C and the tonic chord is C).
Hi Noel, it's great to have you help with my query, as I found a post of yours from 2018, last week before I joined the forum, when I was struggling to set up the MIDI in my BIAB Windows version. I joined the forum especially to be able to view your excellent diagrams and it helped a lot - although some sounds (such as vocal Aah's) still won't play for me.
I have made the -2 pitch adjustment as you suggested, but I'm also conscious that I would need to adjust it for other tunes, as Matt mentions. I'll say a bit more in my reply to Matt, but basically the original tune I tested - Naima by John Coltrane - is in Bb (or possibly F minor) and the -2 adjustment brings it fairly close to what I'm playing, in terms of tuning, but it still sounds 'off' to me. I'm now beginning to wonder if the chords given in the fake book are not accurate?
Thanks again for you input - it's much appreciated.
I think Noel is closer to the right answer, but I would not adjust the concert pitch as the remedy here. It will fix this song but mess up all your other songs, because I think that value sticks.
Hi Matt and thank you for your very detailed and helpful reply. I did try Noel's suggestion, but I am bearing in mind your advice that it may have to be re-adjusted for other tunes. However, as you'll see from my reply to Noel, there is still a mis-match to my ears between the playback and my melody on the tenor.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
...if your fakebook has a song in the key of G, the song is actually in Concert F but BIAB is still playing it in G because that's what you entered. When you then read along with your tenor, your tenor sound is one full step (two half-steps) low.
I find this confusing because I had assumed (wrongly, it seems) that the key signature and the chords were written to match when played on a Bb instrument. If so, then why would I need to adjust anything when setting them in to BIAB?
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
So, since you've already entered the song from Bb instrument sheet music, first transpose your song down one whole step (example G to F, or C to Bb).
The tune (Naima) is in Bb in the real Book, so I transposed it to Ab. As with Noel's method, it's still not quite right, but probably as close as I am going to get it. I tried several other options, including the relative Minor keys, but they sounded worse.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Then use one of several ways in BIAB to tell the program you want to see sheet music adjusted for tenor sax (but not change the pitch of playback). This happens to be +14 half-steps in the pull-down, since a tenor sax sounds an octave and a major second lower than written, or in other words, a ninth lower. Depending on the resulting range of the song, you can also try +2 which works for soprano sax or trumpet, other instruments pitched in Bb.
I am really struggling with this. Could you please walk me through how to set this, as I can't find the pull down you mentioned. Also, is this the missing link, or should the backing be in tune with the instrument by making the transpose adjustment alone without this extra setting? I'm hoping you'll say it does make the difference.
Of course, as mentioned to Noel, the real issue might be the chords themselves (some quite complex ones for this tune: Dbmaj7/C; C13b9; BMaj7/F; etc. I am going to try a simpler tune in a major key without the 'jazz chords' to see how that works.
There are several ways in BIAB to transpose. When I get to a computer, I can give more detail. I use a method you don’t have with version 2015. But I think you should do Options, Preferences, Notation and look for the pull-down settings for Transpose. Select tenor sax.
If the problem here is that you know the tune and how it should sound, but BIAB is not playing quite right chords when they are complex like in this tune, then turn off Natural Arrangement. However, I don’t remember if version 2015 had that.
Your last few posts indicate you have a knowledge of music theory., so I’m starting to be more puzzled. Is your report that the chords are not quite right, or that the pitch is not quite right?
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I was most interested in the O/P's initial comment:
Quote:
Nevertheless, there appears to be dissonance between the chords of the BB song (I usually use real-track styles) and the notes I'm playing. It may not be a lot, perhaps a semitone or less, but it's just not 'quite right'.
A semitone would sound extraordinarily terrible, in fact it would be completely "unlistenable" to. So I suspect that this might be related to a tuning issue(?) (only a guess, I'm not a horn player, so many other influences could come into play), but I'll be the tonality difference is much less than a semitone. Nevertheless, it's a concern and needs resolving.
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I was most interested in the O/P's initial comment:
Quote:
Nevertheless, there appears to be dissonance between the chords of the BB song (I usually use real-track styles) and the notes I'm playing. It may not be a lot, perhaps a semitone or less, but it's just not 'quite right'.
A semitone would sound extraordinarily terrible, in fact it would be completely "unlistenable" to. So I suspect that this might be related to a tuning issue(?) (only a guess, I'm not a horn player, so many other influences could come into play), but I'll be the tonality difference is much less than a semitone. Nevertheless, it's a concern and needs resolving.
Good point. Stephen make sure that everything in your system is set to A=440. Being off a little can cause your problem. My wife's old upright piano has to be tuned to A=432 and if my guitar or wind controller is at A=440 then we have the same problem as you are experiencing.
OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it?
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A semitone would sound extraordinarily terrible, in fact it would be completely "unlistenable" to. So I suspect that this might be related to a tuning issue(?) (only a guess, I'm not a horn player, so many other influences could come into play), but I'll be the tonality difference is much less than a semitone. Nevertheless, it's a concern and needs resolving.
It is un-listenable, certainly unplayable. As mentioned in the OP I don't think it's a tuning issue, at least not on the sax, as I've checked it more than once on different tuners. I could probably live with 2 or 3 cents difference in the sax tuning, but the sound jars on my ear, so it's more than that.
As an afterthought, is it possible to check the tuning on BIAB, and if so how?
Good point. Stephen make sure that everything in your system is set to A=440. Being off a little can cause your problem. My wife's old upright piano has to be tuned to A=432 and if my guitar or wind controller is at A=440 then we have the same problem as you are experiencing.
Thanks for the help Mario. I have replied to Videotrack (above). As far as I know, the sax is correctly tuned to A=440. I just need to check that BIAB is as well, if that's possible.
I think you should do Options, Preferences, Notation and look for the pull-down settings for Transpose. Select tenor sax.
That worked perfectly, thank you.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
If the problem here is that you know the tune and how it should sound, but BIAB is not playing quite right chords when they are complex like in this tune, then turn off Natural Arrangement.
I did looked for this, then got sidetracked by the exciting news I can register for a COVID vaccine tomorrow. Eventually found that it only appears after version 2017.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Your last few posts indicate you have a knowledge of music theory., so I’m starting to be more puzzled. Is your report that the chords are not quite right, or that the pitch is not quite right?
I've been reading and playing music since I was 12, and I'll be 66 in August. I can't say it's an extensive knowledge base, but enough to get by. I suppose I would say that the chords and the playing don't 'sit' together well. Probably that the chords have too many 'blue notes' in them, if you catch my meaning.
To set the master tuning in BiaB go to options/GM settings etc/master tuning. The master tuning setting should be at zero as zero equals A-440. Good luck.
Thanks, I checked and 0 was set. I also tested the Master Tuning and it is working. So, that's not the issue (sadly).
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