Stephen, I know your version of Naima is in the key of Bb because you said you have a Bb fakebook. If you had a concert key fakebook, Naima would be in the key of Ab. My advice to always think in terms of concert pitch stands.
But I'm beginning to think the problem here is not that you are two half-steps off, or that your BIAB and sax are not each tuned to A=440. I'm wondering if you are objecting to the choice of chord notes played by the RealTrack artists you selected. You mentioned 'blue notes'. As a test, try using an all-MIDI style. That will faithfully represent the correct notes in all the complex chords. If I'm right and that sounds OK, then your remedy is to purchase a newer BIAB version and turn off Natural Arrangement for the RealTracks.
Another thing you could do is attach the song and let us look at it and try it. Use the File Manager in the Post Options to your lower left.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Stephen, I know your version of Naima is in the key of Bb because you said you have a Bb fakebook. If you had a concert key fakebook, Naima would be in the key of Ab. My advice to always think in terms of concert pitch stands.
Sorry Matt, I realised you were thinking in Concert pitch after I posted.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
As a test, try using an all-MIDI style. That will faithfully represent the correct notes in all the complex chords. If I'm right and that sounds OK, then your remedy is to purchase a newer BIAB version and turn off Natural Arrangement for the RealTracks.
I tried this as you suggested, but to my ears the MST sounds are even more discordant. Maybe it really is my ears (or my sax/playing!)
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Another thing you could do is attach the song and let us look at it and try it. Use the File Manager in the Post Options to your lower left.
I've taken you up on your very kind offer. To my ears, it's closest to being in tune with the sax when I don't transpose (leave it in Bb, as per the Realbook. I'll be relieved, in some ways, to hear that it's fine for you - so I may need to check the sax tuning again. Thanks again.
Thank you for your kind words about my 2018 post. I'm glad I was able to help. When you've solved this issue concerning tuning. Please create another thread and I'll see if I can solve the remaining MIDI issues you are having. (Sometimes luck works in my favour )
When it comes to understanding transposing instruments and BIAB, Matt Finley is one of the forums' gurus. I know very little about this area of BIAB. Compared to Matt, I'm a bit like a light bulb placed beside the Sun.
One thing that Matt mentioned, I don't know if you picked it up or not, is "Natural Arrangement". This setting gives BIAB license to change your chords as the program sees fit.
Another setting that gives BIAB freedom to change the chords you've entered is the lack of "Force Song To Simple Arrangement".
To remove BIAB's choice to alter chords, it's necessary to....
1) DISABLE "Natural Arrangements"
2) ENABLE "Force Simple Arrangement" (This might seem counter-intuitive but "Force Simple Arrangement" really means, "Play the chords as written"
Both these options are obtained by right-clicking on the chord sheet and selecting "Song Settings". The image below should help.
Noel, he has BIAB 2015. He checked and, as I suspected, he says Natural Arrangement didn’t exist yet.
I’m intrigued by your idea of Simple when using complex chords. I’ll have to try that. I had thought it was used only when you didn’t want G7, only straight G major etc.
Stephen, are you able to record a few seconds of your playing and attach that to a reply, so we can hear what you hear?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Noel, as Matt says I only have 2015, but I've found 'Force Song to Simple Arrangement' and I'll try that later.
Matt, I'm not sure I can record myself right now, as UPS seem to have lost my valuable soprano saxophone that was sent to the UK for repair, so I'm a bit distracted at the moment.
But, I'd be interested to know if the file I put the link to in a recent post, sounds OK against your playing. I have to say that not transposing the key from the Realbook is reasonably close to being 'in tune'.
I had the TSA (forerunner of Homeland Security) break my soprano at the Los Angeles Airport security station. Luckily it was after a concert. Mine's just a mid-quality Yamaha but I feel your pain. What do you have?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I had the TSA (forerunner of Homeland Security) break my soprano at the Los Angeles Airport security station. Luckily it was after a concert. Mine's just a mid-quality Yamaha but I feel your pain. What do you have?
It's a Hanson LX, handmade in Marsden, Yorkshire, UK by Alaister Hanson and his team, who have won awards for sustainable wood clarinets. The LX is their top-of-the-range instrument, I also have the Hanson LX tenor.
It was especially engraved with my father's birth and death dates, as I bought it with money he left me. So to say it's special, is an understatement.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Could you please attach your BIAB song file, the MGU or SGU file? Let me look at that.
I will certainly try - although some head-scratching may be involved and thanks again for offering.
My saviour here is the courier, because he called me for my eircode (like, zip code)before collecting the sax on Friday, otherwise I wouldn't have his number. This is relevant because after 7 calls and 4 emails to UPS head offices around the world, no one was prepared or able to help me. Mike, the van driver, did by asking his local depot to track the parcel and mark it 'return to sender.' So, it's coming back sooner than expected. Unrepaired, but at least I can try again (in Ireland).
If I just give you the song back, you won't see what I did. So do this:
Add the roots to all these chords (except the last few that don't use them). For example, the first chord is not Cm7. It's Cm7/F and you enter the /root. The root on many chords gives the tension your song was missing.
Here's the one absolute mistake: your chart is wrong on bar 4 (and 8). Your chart says BMaj7/F but it's actually BbMaj7/F Big time mistake in the sound.
You didn't put the b9 in bar 10. You had C13 but it's C13b9
Bar 13 is not enterable in BIAB, so I suggest Dbm9/C
I suggest a part marker at measure 17
If you want to use a Tag, change the bar numbers above the chordsheet from 1-29 to 1-20
Then start the Tag after bar 19 and go to 21
Finally, set the key signature to Bb but use NO Transpose
Then set the key signature to Ab and DO use Transpose
Then Options, Preferences, Notation and select Tenor Sax in the Transpose pull-down.
Send me the song when you're done and I'll see how you did.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I read all your material but did not look at your song yet.. I don't think Nathan Hein said the slash roots are 'wrong' and I think it's needed in the bass.
I then looked at The New RealBook Vol. II, both the Bb version to make sure the chord in bar 4 was right (it is) and to check the chord in bar 13.
As a result, I have altered my song as follows, and it sounds great:
changed the tempo from 70 to 60; matches the tempo marking in the fakebook and is the recorded tempo of your choices of RealTracks
changed the chord in bars 1,5 and 17 to DbMaj7/Bb [note: this and all other chords here are concert key]
changed bars 10 and 12 to Bb7susb9
changed bar 13 to DMaj7#5
and a small change of bars 2,6 and 18 from Ebm7 to Ebm9
One more thing. You had a repeat of the first four bars, and for some reason, it played correctly for the first time through but not the second. I'm using the newest build of version 2021 and mine sounded just like your MP3 which was clearly wrong starting around bar 7. So I dropped the repeat, added four bars and copied 1-4 into 5-9. Now it sounds right. I'm not sure why the repeat didn't work correctly and will follow up on that.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I read all your material but did not look at your song yet.. I don't think Nathan Hein said the slash roots are 'wrong' and I think it's needed in the bass.
I'm not sure what Nathan Hein said, but Ethan Hein says..."There are as many interpretations of this tune’s chord changes as there are transcriptions of it. The ones in the Real Book are real wrong. “Naima” is full of slash chords – chords with the “wrong” bass note. If you think of the bass note as determining the chord quality, you can interpret most of “Naima” as consisting of ornamented or altered dominant seventh chords." He may be suggesting that they are meant to be 'wrong' (as in...not the correct note for the chord.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
I changed the tempo from 70 to 60; matches the tempo marking in the fakebook and is the recorded tempo of your choices of RealTracks changed the chord in bars 1,5 and 17 to DbMaj7/Bb [note: this and all other chords here are concert key] changed bars 10 and 12 to Bb7susb9 changed bar 13 to DMaj7#5, and a small change of bars 2,6 and 18 from Ebm7 to Ebm9
I'll try that, thanks.
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
One more thing. You had a repeat of the first four bars, and for some reason, it played correctly for the first time through but not the second. I'm using the newest build of version 2021 and mine sounded just like your MP3 which was clearly wrong starting around bar 7. So I dropped the repeat, added four bars and copied 1-4 into 5-9. Now it sounds right. I'm not sure why the repeat didn't work correctly and will follow up on that.
I did actually hear that myself and assumed there was something wrong with my software. I'll try your suggestion tomorrow. (Very late here in Ireland).
Thanks again for all your help with this and for your song, I'll have a listen in the morning.
What have you concluded? Assuming the pitch is ok and you are in the right key, is it better? Can you conclude the problem was in the chords used? Also that weirdness in the 4-bar repeat?
I think BIAB is quite capable of playing this song well.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
What have you concluded? Assuming the pitch is ok and you are in the right key, is it better? Can you conclude the problem was in the chords used? Also that weirdness in the 4-bar repeat?
I think BIAB is quite capable of playing this song well.
It's much closer to my ears, as being 'tuning' with my playing than anything I've managed. The odd glitch on the repeat obviously didn't though, but I think I'll try a simpler tune with major chords, to see how that sounds.
BTW, did you transpose this back to Ab? Also, Any thoughts on the issue I have in the key signature window, where I don't get the option to chnage key OR transpose - I am forced to do both. Do you know if that's 'normal'?
Thanks again, this has been a real learning curve. I gave up on BIAB some time ago, but I'm ready to get stuck in again. I may even upgrade. If so, they owe you a commission!
I didn't transpose it; you did. That's what I think started the problem.
This tune is generally played and written in Ab concert, and that's what my recording is.
Your leadsheet (with the one wrong chord in bar 4) is for a Bb instrument to play along with the song when it is played in Ab concert (like my MP3). Thus the song on your leadsheet is transposed up one full step to the key of Bb, and you just read it as-is on your tenor to play along with my MP3.
To put this another way, you should not enter the song into BIAB using your Bb instrument leadsheet without dropping all notes and chords one full step, then transposing to see it in terms of a tenor sax. That's the most important lesson here.
Once you decide to work and think in concert pitch, these problems disappear. Think about what I play: My horns are pitched in C, Eb, F, G, A, and Bb. I don't have the slides for my Eb trumpet to play in D or I'd have that one covered, too. I think you see the problem. If my base song were not entered in concert pitch, I would really be sunk trying to keep track.
Is this making sense?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Once you decide to work and think in concert pitch, these problems disappear. Think about what I play: My horns are pitched in C, Eb, F, G, A, and Bb. I don't have the slides for my Eb trumpet to play in D or I'd have that one covered, too. I think you see the problem. If my base song were not entered in concert pitch, I would really be sunk trying to keep track.
Is this making sense?
Thanks again, Matt. It's making sense, to some extent. I have always understood that, (using the circle of fifths), if I am to play a concert pitch tune on a Bb instrument, the backing tracking track needs to be 1 whole tone (-2 steps) lower. So, if I'm playing a sheet in C, the backing track needs to be in Bb, for example. For Eb, the difference is a minor-third (-3 steps) below.
So, yes, that bit makes sense and always did. The bit that's not so clear is that I had assumed the Bb Real Book had already transposed the chords down 1 tone (-2 steps), or else what's the point of it being a Bb book?
The only conclusion I can draw is that the lead sheets are written in the key that will cover the range of the Bb instrument. But, that's not actually the case for some of the songs, as they go to a low A, which is not possible to play on many tenors and sopranos.
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