PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production QUESTIONS BOUT ORCHESTRA LIBS.

any help much appreciated on this topic.
for a long time ive been looking at orch libs/vsti's plug ins//sample libs.
its sorta a dogs breakfast for me cos i want to build epic huge soundscapes. but i have several questions/concerns for people alreay useing orch libs.
what would you recommend that...
1. gives me huge soundscapes if i want them , but can also give me simplicity if thats what a song calls for ?
ie something flexible.
2. is easy to use. one problem i have researching orch libs
is if i get one; the time to find a instrument i'm looking for appropo to a song i'm doing. ie time spent trolling through menus. sometimes its SO TIRING spending oodles of time going through menus, and i find slows my creativity.
cos when i get a song idea BAM ! lol i want to get it down
fast before i lose the flow/impetus.
3. i dont mind spending a little money. but i have other family obligations ; like a lot of pg users i'm sure
(like eating /servicing the car etc lol.) thus a budget friendly solution would be nice.
4. gives me UNIQUENESS. my concern on this being i dont want someone listening to one of my original songs to say
"oh he used the flute from xyz library". what i mean to say is (and i dont mean this in a rotten way) how to stay different from other users useing the same library ?

maybe its just not time for me re orch libs.
maybe i have to wait for them to develope more ?
but any ideas appreciated. ive been going through the sweetwater list of libs also.

https://www.sweetwater.com/c728--Virtual_Orchestra_Software

if people have any ideas ive missed; feel free to post back. also feel free to critique my ideas/propose a different tack.

thanks
oldmuso

I have a number of Kirk Hunter orchestra programs that might fit your bill and budget. The down side is that you will need the full version of Kontakt.
Note I do have a number of other good sounding orchestra strings and brass but they all use Kontakt. If you have Kontakt let me know and I will add them to this list.

My go to symphony is Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles:

https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/virtuoso-ensembles-kontakt-retail/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RgN09DGq-8

The Diamond symphony orchestra is dated but it still has some good sounding strings and horns:

https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/diamond-symphony-orchestra/
----------------------------------------------
The East West products sound good and come with their own player. I have their Symphonic Choirs and it is very good.
---------------------------------------------

The UVI orchestra sounds good and it comes with its own player:

https://www.uvi.net/en/orchestral/orchestral-suite.html

I don't own this one but I do have a few UVI products and they sound good.
---------------------------------------------

Mario.
thanks for those ideas.
much appreciated. very nice of you. your the midi king.
are these massive libs ?
your tag lines eg electric car always make my wife and i giggle. (keep em coming.)


Simon.
if your reading this and continued over from you mentioning file sizes in the rme "unstable" thread.
thanks for the file sizes.
i have a question related to this topic.
let me explain a concept.
i have a dream one day that biab will evolve into "orchestra in a box". so that pg biab/rb users can do epic cinematic arrangements eg combining rock genre with a full blown orchestra.
this idea really cranks me up because imho there is nothing quite like a big orchestra at full bore.

for example recently i attempted to emulate for fun the
orchestra sounds used in a huge andy williams hit.
i got "someways there "/arrange down /some sounds BUT canned the idea cos i realised i needed an advanced orch lib probably. not biab's fault. i'm a bit of a perfectionist i'm afraid.lol.

thus assuming the foregoing concept and 24bit/96khz.
IN THIS CASE FOR A FULL BLOWN SET OF ORCHESTRA RT's.
eg typical huge full blown orchestra with ALL instruments covered includeing latin and world perc sounds plus all popular genres (pop/rok/jazz/classical/blues/country etc etc) what is your very rough estimation of file size ?.
(yes i know it depends on various factors) 50 to 70 Terabytes maybe ?
best
oldmuso

I have Roland’s best hardware MIDI synth so I’m behind in exploring software synths.

I use Notion by Presonus to compose, and their available library has all the instruments I need for both classical and jazz. London Symphony. I prefer these sounds to the Roland. No ‘player’ needed and easy if you know notation or import Music XML.

I also have the Spitfire Studio Orchestra sounds, with strings, brass and woodwinds. Some sounds like flute are considerably better than the Notion sounds. These are from the BBC Orchestra. Not huge and only requires Kontakt player, not full. About 40% off now.

It depends on what you mean by massive. They do cover all aspects of a symphonic orchestra like strings, brass, and percussive sections so in those terms they are massive.

If you mean by footprint then the are not that massive. You should look at the requirements for each product to determine exactly what is required.

Do you have the full version of Kontakt?

Also what DAW, if any, are you using? Some DAWs like Studio One Pro include some orchestra patches.

There are some free orchestra VSTis available:

https://hiphopmakers.com/free-orchestral-vst-plugins-best-orchestral-vst

Note that I do not have a lot of experience with these.

Garritan has a couple of orchestra VSTis available for purchase:

https://www.garritan.com/products/

I have their Personal orchestra and I use it on occasion.

To maximize the realistic sound of a MIDI orchestra mixing sounds from different products is a recommended. I have mixed Kirk Hunter's sounds with synth orchestra sounds, Garritan, GM, and other free orchestra sounds. Sounds from different companies have different timbres, thus when mixed can sound more realistic.

If I can think of others that I have heard and/or have, I'm not on my music computer right now, I will post them.

I hope this helps.

Mario.
re KHunter.
wow you have great taste mario. excellent sounds for the most part includeing the diamond collection.
been listening on you tube this morning.
only neg concern is download time.
i dont have kontakt. was thinking of buying one of their cheap usb sound devices just to get kontakt plus the starter freebies.
(i use bb , reaper , and rb)

maybe i'm missing something; but the areas of an orch lib i'm haveing trouble finding is wonderfull great choir sections that could back up my own vocs ; latin perc ; and horn sections.
it looks to me like lots of the orch libs have very good string sections. but some of the other sections of an orchestra not so much ? unless one spends oodles of bucks.

frankly the bb horn sections are ok for rough demoes/ideas but not for finals. same for vocs. i find the bb pianos ok.

theres nothing like a 200 k grand piano in full bloom.
a friend of my family had one in his fancy apartment.
he was a superb concert pianist. how he got it in there i'll never know. sounded absolutely wonderfull.
bosendorfer if i remember. stuff i'll never be able to afford.
i'm part of the overtaxed middle classes lol.
thanks for the added info mario.

best
old muso
ps mario to give you an idea of the sort of realistic live orchestral songs i love even though i'm a rocker first and foremost. rhapsody in blue on you tube or andy williams cant get used to losing you also on you tube.
also edmonton symphony orchestra doing conquistador with procol harum.

The Diamond orchestra has OK horns while the Virtuoso Ensemble horns are better. Adding reverb to horns can make them sound better. Most of your good orchestra sounds come dry. Also having a couple of duplicate tracks and slightly detuneing them adds realism.

Be care about buying for the freebies. Most come with a less featured program. The Kontakt add on is probably the free Kontakt player.

Amadeus is anther excellent sounding orchestra and it can be played using the free Kontakt Player. The horns and choir are very good. I have this piece of software and use it quite frequently.

https://sonicscores.com/amadeus/

Note that there are many patches available for the Kontakt Player:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/third-party-sample-libraries/

https://hiphopmakers.com/free-kontakt-library-instruments-patches

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-6-player/third-party-sample-libraries/?tx_nisamplelib_nisamplelib[categoryId]=16&tx_nisamplelib_nisamplelib[action]=index&tx_nisamplelib_nisamplelib[controller]=KontaktPlayer&cHash=5ea84ca517e3f1c7cdf4540958de4578

Also google/bing kontakt player sounds. When purchasing Kontakt Player sounds MAKE SURE that the doc indicate that it is for Kontakt Player. Many patches are for the full version only.

As I previously said very good choir is the Symphonic Choirs by East West.

Also note EQing can change the character of a given patch.

I live in New York State so I am a way overtaxed middle class.

Good luck.

PS - also note that I did not purchase all of my sounds in the last couple of years. I have been working with MIDI since the mid 1980s and I have accumulated a lot of sounds over those years and most were on sale when purchased.

Matt.
thanks for the info on notion.
i'm checking it out.
thanks for your kindness.

Mario.
thanks for the added links/info. sooo good of you !

some background.
for years ive been doing songs mainly useing bb RT's with little tricks //fx here and there on the RT's. plus useing midi plus the instrument plug ins found in computer music mag that are free.
but its mainly synth plug ins.
my reasoning was not only did i have other obligations , but also i was hoping the orchestra libs would mature; and with competition prices would improve. plus i was concerned that i saw many net threads on forums talking about the computer resource needs of various packages.
thus are these libs very demanding of cpu resources ?

mario what i would REALLY LIKE TO FIND IS A WONDERFULL FEMALE VOCS
PLUG IN VSTi. please let me explain.
if you listen a ways in on andy williams famous hit "cant get used to losing you" in the background is this fabulous female background singer. thats the sort of back up vocs i would love to find.
please give it a listen and tell me (its on you tube) if you know any lib that has that femme character background vocal.

i can do back up males fine; and what i do is a trick by merging my back up vocs with bb RT male vocs sometimes etc etc. but it only takes me so far. cos some of the bb vocs only work in certain tempo ranges etc.
in summary i would love to find individual femme back up singers of the calibre heard on some of the old orchestral/film songs as well as choirs i could build from.
fyi recently i did a "choir" all from scratch on a rock song useing lots of traks in reaps.
it was a ton of work spanning a couple of days.
sounded ok ; BUT i failed to mimic the female vocs of course lol.

this afternoon talking of east/west lib i was listening to their
femme back up singers lib. but i'm sorta this way and that about it.

once again mario. thanks for any help.

best
oldmuso

The BBC Symphony Orchestra (bbcso) Discover from Spitfire Audio is still one of the premier and best starting points for folks interested in orchestral arranging. It is sold for $49 USD or you can request a free copy from Spitefire. It does not require Kontakt. It is a gem of an offering.

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbcso/

I just purchased a professional Can't Get Used to Losing You MIDI file. The Vibes, bass, and drums are not from the Kontakt Player Amadeus but everything else is from it. The link is below just let me know when you DL it so I can take it down.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b48exp45n2gx17c/Can%27t%20%20Get%20Used%20to%20Losing%20You.wav?dl=0

All I did was to assign various Amadeus sounds to the MIDI. NO effects were added, thus the sounds are as delivered from Amadeus, nor did I change the MIDI file in any way.

If you would like to hear the some of my other sound sources just let me know. It will be a busy weekend but I'll do my best to get them back to you as soon as I can.

My gosh, Mario, those Amadeus voices sound fantastic!

Over the “COVID” break I spent a small fortune (all the coffee and grog money I couldn’t spend) on orchestral stuff. The thing is it does not matter what you get, invariably you have not got what you’d really like. Then, eventually you build up an understanding and find you no longer have the disc space required to store what you need let alone the money.

Each orchestral library has its own features and failings. Some are designed to do one thing and really don’t do as well with others. There is an amazing amount of free stuff out there but , the free stuff often has very limited articulations as do most of the cheaper libraries.

It does not seem to matter high end or low end understanding the “Key Switches” and or articulation lanes makes a huge difference. Knowing how to get the best out of the libraries you have for what you are trying to do.

Having said all that companies such as Spitfire, VSL, Project Sam and many others provide great freebies but you need to work with them to get the best out of them. After a while one learns a few tricks such as creating a track for the music and another for controlling the plugin (if using something such as Cakewalk) to avoid cluttering what you are doing. In Reaper creating Note Maps (Key Maps) is a great way to help but not only for “Key Switches” but also for CC Lanes. Using note maps helps to get a lot more out of the plugin. (Not only with Orchestras but many instrument plugins and other sims).

Where would I start, well I’d recommend the VSL Big Bang free Orchestra (but it does require a Steinberg Key (about USD $25). The Spitfire freebies are really good but one needs to learn about them to get anything productive. Similar with Project Sam freebies. Even Kontakt freebies.

For paid stuff there are many depending on what you are doing. Good lower priced ones include LASS (but Modern Strings is a better proposition) but strings only. I find VSL Special Editions 1 & 2 are great. Combine that with the Big Bang (and some additions) or the VSL Smart Orchestra and you are well on the way. Then add Ostinato Strings (to design Ostinatos) your a long way there.

There are many many really great orchestral libraries but you do need $$$. However even the lower end Kontakt Orchestral libraries can provide a good sound (if you learn to use them). With the full version of Kontakt one can edit the orchestra to get reasonable legato for example.

Well I’ve had a bit to say. This is something I wanted to share. These are my experiences and thoughts. I am only to willing to discuss them. Other people’s mileage may vary.

Thanks. Tony

Mario.
you are a prince for doing that example.
i had a listen. you asked me to tell you when i had had a listen. so you can now take it down if you wish mario.
as you can see that andy williams song is a great composition.
no wonder it was a big hit in its time.
and probably a good test of any orch lib.
your example together with my exploring orch libs on you tube has certainly got me more interested in pursuing affordeable orch libs. cos they have come someways.

i think the KEY to useing them from everything ive heard is judicious use. its a question of how close one can get with a patch to the live real player of the instrument with the real players personality and articulations.
its like the RT's(and this is no knock on the RT's);
but i find sometimes with RT's ; background use in a song or RT synth pads are fine. its when one needs some carefull sophistication that one really has to work at it.

mario ; sometime listen on you tube to the orchestra useage on old cilla black hits. great nuggets of sound imho.

i agree with Cathie. there are some nice sounds in amadeus.

every happiness mario.
best
oldmuso
ps teunis. you make good points.
i dont want to spend money i dont have.
gonna go buy a lottery ticket lol.

I agree. One gets a lot of good orchestra sounds for $149 USD.

We must be close in age; I am 75. I did remember Can't Get Use to Losing You and well as Cilla Black. Remember the "101 Strings Orchestra"? They did some amazing music.

Teunis makes a good point in that in order to get the absolute best sounds you need to spend more money. Unfortunately most of them are out of my price range.

I guess your next step is to make a decision on what to buy. Personally I think the Kontakt Player and Amadeus is a good place to start. Amadeus does have key switches for various articulations. The initial cost is $149 USD but for the cost you get some good sounding orchestra sounds IMHO.

If need be you can also purchase a book on orchestration, google/bing MIDI orchestration.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Groove 3 is a great place to start with understanding orchestral stuff. Even if you join for only a month Groove 3 is worth it. They have several good video tutorials on orchestration, how to do it and how to mix it and more. There are also books available on Groove 3 (not that I read them).

I recommend “Orchestral Library Toolbox” which is very extensive not specific to any instrument product or genre. It covers many aspects and provides hours of details. Vienna Smart Orchestra Explained is another good video as are MIDI Orchestration Explained and Orchestral Mixing Explained. It should be possible to gain a good understanding if one has a look at these videos.

I found Orchestration way more complex than many other aspects of computer music. Even more complex than pedal steel (which is also complex IMHO). Whilst it is complex and a big learning curve Orchestral Instrumentation is a lot of fun and can keep you occupied for hours on end. (That is basically the reason I’ve had less time on these forums).

Have fun Tony

+++ Solid State Symphony +++ is an interesting library for $59.

Realitone just released +++ Sunset Strings +++ for $199. It's interesting because the player can blend two articulations together. Also, the studio has been used to score movies so it has that cinematic sound.

Yes this is a good one. I have Solid State Symphony and it is my go to synth sounding strings.

It has brass and it has a very unusual set up. When using the complete symphony, you have the option of only using the string section, lower velocities will yield strings only when higher velocities add the horns.

{edit} - It does require the full version on Kontakt.

ALL.
thanks for being so kind and contributing to this thread.
fyi what i am doing right now is doing deep dives into orch/music library plug ins on you tube as well as the net.
as i find something unique/different i'll post the link here.
mainly i focus on areas where i feel the RT's are weaker.
eg femme vocs; winds like clarinets/flutes etc and other categories.

for example heres my first find the other day.
from ivy audio. its called clare i believe.
female solo lib.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fepmgrZNHoo

i'll post other finds as i come across them.

lol i now realise my stupidity in not being aware that library plug ins have come a loooong way.

best
oldmuso.

I made this segue into orchestral arranging a year or two back in an effort to expand my musical experience and to search for inspiration. Best thing I did in this regards is become a regular over at https://vi-control.net/community/. This site provides inputs into this area well beyond our little BIAB community. However, just like the BIAB forum, you will find the folks very helpful and friendly. Stop by and say hi if you see me over there.

Very interesting site Dan. Thanks for posting the link.

Jeff

Dan.
thanks for the VI info. my problem is finding the time of course for everything like a lot of people. as well as writing new songs.
(whether they are any good. who knows. but its my passion as well as my life with my lovely wife; who, god knows why, puts up with my music madness and my crazy guitars blasting out lol. )

frankly i feel really stupid in not realising the depth of the sample library market dan.
i feel ive been transported to some new dimension or twilight zone or galaxy with too many planets to count lol.
and the problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff of course.
cos what i'm trying to do (without chewing up a ton of disk space and $$$) is to augment the RT's with added carefully chosen instruments/libs not in the RT's or under represented.
for example i havent found a harpsichord RT in biab as but one example. or a spinnet.

i find frankly in songwriting that too many choices can also muck up a song. i like the george martin approach..
make your decisions and live with them good or bad like they had to decades ago when they had few traks.

today i found another interesting femme lib called "allura".
(not free). pretty impressive.
to be fair i can see why some people need repaying for putting together sample libs. it must be a ton of in studio work and time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OpUxlIBfQk
there are other you tube links for different allura vids.
just google.

best
oldmuso

ALL.
ok ive searched and search on you tube etc for further
female vocal libs. i dont mean synthesised vocs.
looks to me like a group of talented pro female back up singers could make decent money pumping out low cost vsti vocal libs from mezzo sopranoe down through the various femme vocal ranges. from solo libs through to duos/trios/
various back up singer numbers.
i mean non synthesised classical or rock or blues or various other music genre femme vocals. not finding a lot of femme voc libs unfortunately that cover various female vocal ranges. OR have i missed any low cost/free libs ?
gonna look at wind instruments next and gradually work through each orchestral section looking for further libs.
any further help/links to low cost/free femme voc libs much appreciated.
best
oldmuso

IF you have the full version of Kontakt these Angelic vocal pads are really good:

https://store.precisionsound.net/product-category/vocal-choirs/

I own a number of Angelic vocal presets with many not supported any more.

I have no experience with the following but maybe something here will work for you:

https://blog.native-instruments.com/5-free-vocal-libraries-for-kontakt/

https://www.angelicvibes.com/free-ambient-vocals/

+++ Realivox Ladies +++ $299 US.

+++ Realivox Blue +++ $149 US. One of the four voices in Realivox Ladies.

I will add that both of these will work with the free Kontakt Player.

Mario/jim.
thanks for being such champs with your info/input/links.
but ive concluded my venturing into the land of large orchestral/vocal/instrumental libs was stupidly naive from my research to date.

haveing made songs in the past in a few big recording studios before setting up my own modest rig i think i conclude that only the big recording studios/film makers have the budgets to afford the most sophisticated sample libs. ie its a big boys game.
it seems to get a really good lib together can cost several k at a minimum from my deep dive into the topic.

however if you can recommend a lib combo for a few hundred buks that covers where i'm weak in the bb RT's. that would be grrreat !

heres where i'm weak in RT's.
(i have ultrapak 2020 and will probably upgrade next year if some of my wishes are implemented. )
i mainly do rok songs (not metal ) and occasional ballads.
(no country or jazz. blues rarely.)
but my "thing" is useing orch sounds in rok songs and ballads. i want to do more of this.

i'm weak in;
.cellos
.slide guitar for rock.
.horns eg trumpets.
.flutes/whistles
.clarinets
.other wind instruments eg oboes/bassoons
.latin perc
.violin groups
.good rok saxes. i can use some rt but after lots of edit work/regens.
.ditto above for harmonicas.
.femme opera and rok back up vocs.(already mentioned in earlier posts)
.stand up bass
.rok choirs
.other orchestral/symphonic instruments usefull in rok songs.
all above royalty free of course/plug ins/vsti's

(i hate dongles. used them in the past. end up with a nest of them. so i only buy dongle free products. thank god pg have not gone to dongles. )

one problem of course is though i like a particular RT i cant use it sometimes in a fast rok song often cos its tempo range might not match. or i get a stretch artifact.
ive got guitar rt's out the ying yangs. the rhythm ones i often find usefull. but the solo ones i really have to manipulate with lots of regens and/or daw edits and/or plug in tricks and/or adding my own guitar. i'm an ok guitarist , but not great.
dont get me wrong ; i'm not knocking bb but i need more than sometimes bb can give me.

anyway if anyone has added ideas within my puny few hundred buks budget; i'm all ears.
its the same prob i have with sports channels packages on tv !. (i'm a soccer nut.) they get too costly so i dont buy them.

in ending my other worry is i'll buy a fancy library/plug in , and it either gets obsolete or i find i dont find
some patches usefull. or there are too many patches to go
through as i like to work fast when ive got a song idea.

best and thanks again.
oldmuso

These are my choices based on what I have:


.cellos - Amadeus - $149 - free Kontakt player - https://sonicscores.com/amadeus/

.slide guitar for rock. no idea other than for the full version of Kontakt

.horns eg trumpets. Amadeus

flutes/whistles Maybe Kontakt player - don't know for sure
Mine are all for the full version of Kontakt

.clarinets Amadeus

other wind instruments eg oboes/bassoons Amadeus

.latin perc no idea except for the full version of Kontakt

.violin groups Amadeus

.good rok saxes. i can use some rt but after lots of edit work/regens. VG instruments - $76 or less
https://vgtrumpet.com/
Not as good as Swam's $250 but a lot cheaper
https://audiomodeling.com/swam-engine/solo-woodwinds/swam-saxophones/

.ditto above for harmonicas. No idea - I'm looking for a good one myself

.femme opera and rok back up vocs.(already mentioned in earlier posts) Amadeus

.stand up bass Amplesound - $149 -https://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=21
Maybe Kontakt player - don't know for sure

.rok choirs no idea

.other orchestral/symphonic instruments usefull in rok songs. Amadeus
Maybe Kontakt player - don't know for sure

I recently became interested in orchestral libraries, and like you, I wanted to add different nuances and instruments to my compositions. To begin with, I would advise you to spitfire orchestra the basic one. I filled out the survey and within 15 days they sent me the download link for two computers. It is stand alone and works with biab 2020 which is the one I have. For me it is very intuitive and it does not sound bad as it comes, it has few articulations but since it is not the main instrument in my recordings it does not worry me much and it is very good as mentioned above.
It consumes few resources and filling out the survey is free, so you waste time alone.

Another vst that you could try is the korg triton that comes with all its orchestral, dance, world, etc. expansions. The particularity and utility that I usually give it is the split function, which allows dividing the keyboard into instruments, you can have several instruments active in a session.
register at korg and get the triton demo fully functional. You can use it completely for 20 minutes each time you start it, it is also stand alone and for now, although Biab recognizes it, I have not been able to make it sound.
They are two things that you could try and value, it would only take you time.
I use a translator, in case it is not well understood
All the best

I might be showing a lot of ignorance here, maybe this is too country, but could a pedal steel work for you? https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=654617#Post654617

You can use it 15 minutes at a time if you don't have full Kontakt, just the player. The demo sounded terrific and totally versatile.

thanks for the replies.
looks like amadeus is for me as a base lib.
plus the spitfire.
cathie ; that sounds very good. but still a tad "country"
for my tastes. gonna look into it further. thanks.

best and rock out people.
oldmuso

I was ridiculously excited to have remembered it. RealStrat5 is definitely a rock guitar, but dunno if it has any kind of slide capabilities. I don't even know how to figure that out. And that's all I know about guitar VSTs.

Cathie/all.
re guitar vst's.
sometime for fun have a listen to , on you tube
"crazy bout my mercury". the version by david lyndley.
IT ROCKS !
great for parties and lots of fun times.
i could hear it a thousand times and never tire of it.
its also a lesson in clever songwriting imho as well.
listen to the version on you tube with the blue background
with el rayo x. the original record version.
rather than the live versions.

i have never heard any plug in be able to get lyndleys
sound on that record.
if anyone knows the gear he used i'm all ears. lol.

best
i'm listening to it right now and dancing round the room lol
oldmuso
ps even sounds grrreat on my amazon fire cheapie tablet.

I have 6TB of libraries, 2/3 orchestral. I'll spare you the list. A few thoughts. I own licenses for each of these:

I have Amadeus but it is a little buggy for me; the long promised fixes are way, way overdue but the $149 price is great.

Best bang for the buck, IMO, is Miroslav Philharmonik—when on sale. Has its own player or uses SampleTank 4, a very powerful player—and free (paid versions of ST include more libraries but all use the same, free player). It often goes on sale bundled with SampleTank packages such as Total Studio Max at low prices if you're patient (recently $299). Download SampleTank 4 CS (free) and you will be on their email list. Unfortunately, their last big sale ended April 30 but they appear frequently. Not a bargain at the current $499 price.
Philharmonik 2

UVI Orchestral Suite is very good @ $199 — was on sale for $139 a few months ago. Like SampleTank, the UVI Player is free.
UVI Orchestral Suite

Garritan Personal Orchestra 5 uses the included ARIA Player. Although $149.95 on the MakeMusic web site, many resellers have it for less.
GPO 5

I’ve been looking at this thread and I find it fascinating. I’ve said a few things here as well. Today I started with a different fiddle synth. I could not get what I wanted out of the fiddles or violins I had. So another synth. Went through the manual and some things made sense. They also made sense for the other fiddle synths. Then applying some of the newly learnt ways to handle the technology I realised I probably had what I needed but did not know how to drive it.

A few weeks ago I wrote here about a Steel Guitar and just how good it was but it had some limitations so I tried another “Tod’s Pedal Steel” which really overcame most of the issues with the other Steel Guitars I had. Tod’s Pedal Steel comes with a few really great examples of how to use the product. After going through the Tod’s training (for want of better wording) I am now able to get a lot more out of the other pedal steels. (But Tod’s will be my go to as it is less complex).

I guess what I’m getting at is what I’ve said before. To get the most out of any synth one really needs to know it’s ins and outs.

I don’t know if Tod is on these forum's (I see his name on a lot of Reaper stuff) but I cannot thank him enough. Dealing with and letting the guy behind the sim steer your path is huge. Tod seemed to have no issue with this.

Anyway enough from me.

Tony

Here's a new vocal library from a major player that looks promising:

EastWest Hollywood Backup Singers

Intro price of $149.50 looks really good. If you go for it, let us know how it works out.

Mike.
thanks kindly for those ideas/links.
checking them out.


Teunis.
will check tods out.

all.
one problem i have as illustrated the other day is my wife and i were listening to the tv ; and we both said
"wasnt that intrument sound on something else recently " ?
thus i'm wondering how much one can customise orch libs
and make them unique. so when i put out a song other
people dont say the same of my song efforts.
this is my biggest concern ie how to make a lib unique to me. (as well i want libs that arent hogging cpu processes/power).
best
oldmuso

Off the top of my head:
EQ
Compression/limiter
Blending orchestra presets (for instance free orchestra strings with better ones)
Two or more of the same track with detuning
Effects (chorus, slap delay, distortion, etc)
Blending orchestra presets with synth presets

Maybe it is time to quit worrying and trying some experimentation. Try using some free orchestra VSTs prior to spending any money. Note that I have no experience with the following orchestra libraries:

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45#:~:text=Layers%20is%20a%20free%20orchestral%20VST%20instrument%2C%20and,tonal%20colors%20and%20dynamics%20with%20your%20MIDI%20controller.

https://hiphopmakers.com/free-orchestral-vst-plugins-best-orchestral-vst

https://blog.landr.com/best-free-orchestral-vsts/

Google/Bing free orchestra VST to find others. Mix and match, add effects, etc, and see if you really want to pursue this any further.

I say this with respect but if you keep asking for opinions you may get lost with all of them as everyone has opinions. Now may be the time to dive in and get your feet wet.

I hope this helps and good luck - have fun.

Mario.
re "just dive in"
funny you should say that.
good advice and thats exactly what i'm gonna do.
normally i'm just that sort of person.
but for some odd silly reason this orch lib subject has sorta fazed me.
maybe its age creeping up on me.

btw your latest tag line i showed to my wife who then hugged me.
so it was worth it. lol.
actually it made our day. we are telling all our friends that one.
frankly we couldnt stop laughing.
i ask my wife every year if she wants to "still" put up with her big mistake for another year , and amazeingly she
always says yes; even though i'm untraineable. lol.

thanks.
oldmuso.

oldmuso we have a lot in common. After 3 years of dating and as of next month 54 years of marriage my delusional wife still thinks that I can be domesticated!

Mario.
thats so grreat. 54 years ! congratulations.
buy her a nice present.

best
oldmuso

**laughing** oldmuso, I think I like your wife a lot!

Here are two suggestions for slide guitar soft synths, both by the same developer:

+++ Delta Blues Acoustic Slide Guitar +++ and +++ The Resonator +++. Both are $59 US, require the FULL version of Kontakt 5 or higher and developed by Idiginus.

This is just release and its FREE. You either need the full Kontack 5 or you need to install the FREE Decent Sampler Player. It is a 1Gig collection of Orchestral Swells.

Pianobook's First Orchestral Library

There are several demos just hitting youtube today. This is from the author.

Thanx Dan, this looks very interesting. DLing it now.

I am pretty happy with this. After about 10 minutes of playing around I determined the sounds are very nice. So I decided to go find the operational manual or an instruction video to figure out how to use it.

I have a major love/hate relationship with orchestra libraries. This illustrates the 'hate' side.

On one hand, it's faster and easier to use a "Vienna" sample at my computer than the real Bösendorfer in my front room with my wife playing. On the other hand, that real Viennese piano always sounds way, way better than the most expensive VI – enough so that we had the action completely rebuilt during lockdown (thank goodness it came out of her budget and not mine!).

I always hope that a project budget is big enough for a live orchestra and that I'm using my VI libraries to demonstrate ideas only. I can do a lot more tone shaping with a baton in an hour than a computer in a month. If wishes were horses… Anyway, all of the good VIs allow extensive tweaking but that takes loads and loads of time — and I'm always on deadline.

I had hoped that taking retirement from my music industry day job would give me time — then lockdown happened and making music online became a 50–80 hour a week "part time" job.

Well, my churches are meeting in person beginning September. We'll see…

Lament over.

Mike, what you said is absolutely true; a real instrument will always sound better than an emulated one. And yes you will need to not only spend a lot of time learning an emulation you have to know the nuances of said instrument.

Or you can use my approach, i.e. "that is close enough for me"

I want to get into this orchestral thing, but I'm not sure where to start... I'm using Cakewalk by BL as my daw. Should I start with something like the free Kontact player or something else?

Look for an orchestral sound library that takes the free Kontakt player. It will work with Cakewalk. Be aware, the better sound libraries will require the full paid Kontakt player.

That's not the only possible solution, though. There is a ton of research you could do. Or, if you have a Sweetwater rep, they can assess your needs and help.

thanks Matt... your suggestions seem like the best place to start.

one other thing... what's up with the text wrap with this thread..? especially page 2?
Very hard to read on my laptop... anyone? Thanks

I would start with one of these free orchestras:

https://thehomerecordings.com/free-orchestral-vst/#:~:text=Best%20Free%20Full%20Orchestra%20VSTs%201%20Layers%20by,orchestral%20sample%20VST%20plugin.%20...%20More%20items...%20

Download a couple of these and layering them will make them sound more realistic. Also note that some are VSTls and require no addition software to run.

Once you learn about orchestration, there are a lot of books on this, you can advance to better but more expensive sounds.

YMMV

Thanks Mario... I just did a quick format on one of my old BiaB usb hard drives and will start downloading...

Huh? That's not correct at all—ok because it is confusing. Let's see if I can clarify:

All Native Instruments licensed Kontakt libraries use Kontakt Player (free) including the ones from Native Instruments—doesn't matter the developer. Not only that, they have a Kontakt serial number and show up in the Kontakt browser. Any libraries that can use Kontakt Player are also available within Kontakt.


All Kontakt compatible libraries not licensed by Native Instruments require Kontakt which is paid. They do not appear in the Kontakt browser and must be selected manually.

A case in point: The Mercury Piano (as in Freddie's Fazioli) from WavesFactory is available in two versions, Mercury @ $149.99 uses Kontakt Player or Kontakt but MercuryLite @ $59.99 requires Kontakt.

WavesFactory Mercury & MercuryLite

BTW, before I bought Mercury, I didn't understand this either and it was WavesFactory Tech Support who generously took the time to explain these facts of life to me when I couldn't figure out how to run MercuryLite on the laptop I had at the time. (it's a great piano library and a license for Mercury entitles you to a free license for MercuryLite in case you have a laptop or such that can't handle the full resources of Mercury).

Thanks for clarifying. I should have said 'some' better sound libraries.

From what you wrote, it seems the financial model for at least one company is to encourage you to try a lite version if you already have the full Kontakt player? I suppose then they know they are dealing with potentially more serious buyers?

Besides being a VI host, Kontakt is also a sampler and has a great deal of additional functionality. Kontakt Player is only a host for compatible libraries.

At first, it's counterintuitive as in the Mercury example but makes sense when you know that 3rd party developers must pay a license to NI for a library to be compatible with the free Kontakt Player. I have some other libraries where the $29 or freebie requires Kontakt but the $99 works in Player.

NI offers teaser libraries that work in Kontakt Player. Their expensive libraries come either with Kontakt/Komplete or as an add-on but they also work with the free Kontakt Player—you don't get the sampling and other functionality if you use the Player.


UVI offers something similar but they give the sampler/synth a different name: Falcon. UVI Player is free. They and 3rd party developers let you know if VIs work in UVI or if Falcon is required. Two different names ends a lot of confusion.


I like the way IK does it. SampleTank is a very powerful player. It can be downloaded as CS for free. All paid versions use the same free player. I didn't realise this last year when my SampleTank3 libraries were giving me grief over MacOS Mojave and now I'm looking at a pricy upgrades. So I downloaded SampleTank4 CS for free to evaluate. Oh wait… now all my ST3, Miroslav, TotalStudio libraries open up in ST4 with more functionality than before and nothing is asking for new licenses — just like UVI, the actual player is free. Got it!

There are many advantages to spending the money on the full Kontakt version. The ability to add simple scripts to create needs (but you will need to do some learning). For example, even the trumpet in the Factory Selection can be made to sound fairly good by adding the pre written script to make the trumpet monophonic setting the portamento suitably thus creating a simulated legato. There are many things one can do with the full version of Kontakt not possible with the Player version.

Within no time the full version pays for itself when you include the free and cheaper patches.

Also a lot of the Orchestral Synths have there own players. For example, Vienna Instruments Synchron Player for the various VI libraries, Spitfire just to name a couple. Spitfire Labs even has free stuff not requiring Kontakt.

My thoughts
Tony

For a pop song, you typically don't need a full orchestra. Strings, flute, oboe, english horn, french horn - you're mostly looking to add color to a song, not write a extended flute and string trio. Large number of articulations are generally overkill.

Don't worry about uniqueness. These are orchestral instruments, and you're not writing for sample library connoisseurs, are you?

GPO 5 is rather dated, but it's fairly complete. I'm rather fond of the flute and double reeds.

Amadeus will also get you a full collection of instruments. I find the english horn a bit underwhelming, and in general it lacks detail, but it'll get the job done. The "Symphony" patches will give you that "full blown" orchestral sound without having to work

BBCSO isn't complete, but it's got some nice sounds, especially the strings. No solo instruments - they're all recorded in pairs. But the price (free) for the student edition is perfect.

The Miroslav CE edition is has some lovely sounds in it. The sound is more "detailed" than some of the other libraries.

Having the full version of Kontakt will get you access to non-Player versions of Kontakt libraries, which is a good deal in the long run. NI's got a Summer sale coming up.

The full version of Kontakt comes with the Kontakt Factory Library, which includes - among other things - a fairly complete collection of orchestral instruments. That might be sufficient for your needs.

There are a lot of things that these sample libraries can't do. The Golden Rule of writing with sample libraries: write to the library's strengths.

Once you've got a core library, you can then focus on getting single instruments to fill the gap of what's missing.

For example, Embertone has a lovely Chapman Trumpet, for $30. They also have the Popelka Bassoon, also $30. There are plenty of libraries out there to check out, so you can find exactly the sound you're missing.

If you focus on getting a smaller collection of sounds that you like, you'll be less likely to go trawling through your collection looking for something that fits.

Well... lots of good suggestions in the previous comments.

I'd start with Native Instruments Kontakt. If you want a good starting point, and money isn't really an issue, I'd suggest the Komplete package from NI. Last time I looked, it had Kontakt and somewhere close to 10+ other synths. All with different characteristics and a ton of virtual instruments and sounds. In addition, there are easily hundreds of third party vendors who make unique sound libraries that only work with Kontakt. You not only get the basic orchestral and band instruments but you get a bunch of soundscapes, and other sounds that go into what it sounds like you're wanting to do.

In my humble opinion, you can not go wrong using NI as a starting point. They have a huge and ever expanding library of sounds, it is relatively affordable compared to other synths and libraries on the market, and the most important thing is that everything they have sounds good.

Many years ago, I picked up Komplete and have never regretted it. Huge bass synths, drums and percussion synths, soundscapes..... my only regret is that I don't write music that can use it to it's fullest.

I have a few other synth libraries.... East West, Miroslav, and a few other ones but the Komplete package is my go to synth when I need something unique.

As far as something sounding dated.... I think it's more a factor of how it's used vs the actual sound.

Thanks everyone... I Just dowmloaded and tried out Kontact Player & Komplete Start...
Impressive... Right now I'm using my old Yamaha Midi Keyboard as a controller, but I'm looking at maybe bundleing one of the NI S-series Controller Keyboardss, with the full Komplete package. Any thoughts..? I wonder when the Upgrade prices will be on sale?

No argument with any of that. I went with Komplete as my starter—just had more bang for the buck at the time and included Kontakt, of course.

This was the year that I upgraded to
KOMPLETE 13 ULTIMATE Collector's Edition With the sale on right now, it was the same price as adding just the full Symphony Strings that I'd been wanting a long time.




I hear you there. Does anyone? Can anyone?



NOW!!!
This is the first time in a year and a half that Komplete Upgrades have been on sale—none last year (only add-ons). 50% upgrades don't come along very often.

SAVE WITH A SCORCHING HALF-PRICE SUMMER SALE Summer of Sound is back … until June 30th

ALL. SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS.
(from a previous life where i was involved in tech marketing strategies. i'm a "cat"..lol. )
if you think about it , pg could implement an additional major revenue stream strategy.....as follows.
1. reduce "band in a box" prices a "bit" to get more users who later on buy the very sophisticated......and complete........
2. "ORCHESTRA IN A BOX". see where i'm coming from with this ? thus an enhanced revenue stream. ie a full blown orch lib.
----------------------------------------------------------
already some orchestra type instruments eg cello /harp/trumpet etc etc are there as RT's.
so obviously pg has access to session musicians.
thus pg could develope their own very user friendly ORCHESTRA LIB fully integrated with biab and realband etc.

moi, for one, wouldnt look elsewhere if i had a "kick A**" orch lib.
i'm not talking a basic lib...but a "knock your socks off" "rock em sock em "lib.
ie an amazeing orch lib. where people go "ultra wow".

now LET ME ADD FURTHER...if anyone would like to read one of my wishlists in the bb wishlist forum...imagine now that bb/rb had "film scene" markers. think music for picture.
thus bb/rb could be used as a sketchpad for such.
(i'm sure some people do this today in a reduced way. possibly useing the bb feature "layers"...to denote music sections.)
(ps..look at pipelines great bars view pic sometime in my wishlist. i suggested tabs in a dialog.. for film scene markers could be addded. ie instead of a label saying verse1 or chorus3....it could be scene 14 marker or scene 98 marker whatever name user wished etc etc.)

given i had a complete amazeing pg orch lib , i wouldnt have to worry searching all over for added libs like i am currently. tho i could still do that if i wished of course. if the pg orch lib was optimised to be resource/cpu friendly (like pg echo/chorus plug in)
BONUS.

just an idea. and possibly another pg revenue stream.
so now a 2 tier product. band in a box and orch in a box.
oldmuso

"1. reduce "band in a box" prices a "bit" to get more users who later on buy the very sophisticated......and complete........



The Audiophile version is $669 for a first-time buyer. That seems a reasonable price for everything you get. BIAB has no competitor - it occupies a niche that is unique. I find it hard to believe they can sell it for the price they charge. For $129 (The 'Pro' package) you can get BIAB, REALBAND, and 500 RealTracks.



2. "ORCHESTRA IN A BOX". see where i'm coming from with this ? thus an enhanced revenue stream. ie a full blown orch lib."


A full-blown orchestra? Timpani, French Horns, Bassoons, Violins, etc? I already have Orch samples; Miroslav, Dimension Pro, Garritan and several others and BIAB handles them admirably. Were I doing sound for film, I would be using professional orchestral samples.



Regards,

Bob

90db..
maybe i didnt express myself clearly.
there are lots of people out there that dont own the type of nice orch libs you own.
OR they cant afford to make a huge investment in orch libs that some hi end recording studios and/or arrangers can .
the latter type of user haveing the significant revenue streams/income of many thousands/tens of thousands monthly that allows them the funds to spend on AAA top line large orch and sample libs. unlike the smaller project studio tier of users which often dont have such big budgets to spend. my concern is for the "little guy"
with limited budget who cant afford the hi end libs.
i'm sure some advanced users of orch/sample libs have invested several thousands and even lots more.
(tens of thousands ?)
an analogy might be like moi..lol that some people can only afford golf fees at the town golf course rather than the high end golf club.

i was purely suggesting another possible revenue stream for pg with ITS OWN PG PRODUCED ORCH LIB that pg users could tap into at a reasonable price.
possibly also a side benefit being tight technical integration tween pg's orch lib and software products there might be ease of use efficiencies for the user realised as well as possibly lower latencies experienced by users that might not own the most powerfull computers.
in my case in this scenario i would not need to use third party players...
i could just use the pg integrated lib.

(btw i was NOT inferring that pg's current pricing is over the top. eg audiophile etc. its fair imho. i was just suggesting alternatives. in product pricing/product marketing there are often 2 approaches.
one being low prices sell to millions of users OR higher prices sell to fewer customers. difference tween a hamburger sold by a chain or beef medallions sold in a hi end eatery. lol.)

best
oldmuso

no i think we understand clearly. the argument that prices should be lower is never valid. it's the market that decides and if a company charges too much then no one buys and they go out of business. never using capitalization makes long rambling posts hard to read just saying

Mike.
jeesh..i think some history of myself as a long time user of pg products will show how ive been a big pg proponent over the years.
i hope just the following 2 points illustrate with clarity how much i care about pg's continued success in its software niche.
which is one reason why i suggested a new revenue stream from pg creating its own orch lib product.
1. case point 1. powertraks.
ive lost count the number of hi end and other users/song creators i used to show this product to ages ago; and over the years. and watch their eyes "bug out" after they had spent loads of money on their particular daw software.
(haveing said that i dont consider myself as expert as rharv the jedi master imho of the product and other powertraks users.)
2. case point 2. biab.
ive also lost count of the number of music people ive told of/turned onto biab over the years and how it can help in the song creation process etc.
i would like a dollar for each time ive told a musician about biab... or a "snooty friend" would say "oh i heard from a friend it was elevator music ".
so i would sit them down and show this was untrue.
once again i would enjoy seeing the looks on their faces.
(again mike i dont consider myself a jedi master/expert of the product like a joanne cooper or a charlie fogle. )

in summary mike. i'm a big supporter and spread the word about pg products. BUT that doesnt preclude me from makeing what i hope are sensible feature wishes and comments on how to improve the products.
i sincerely believe, if done right ; a new product called the "pg orchestra/samples lib" could be another pg revenue generator, and fill a nice market niche, particularly with small new/future project studios that have not invested in orch/sample libs.

every happines.
oldmuso.

oldmuso, I understand your point and to a degree I agree with you. But I would like to see PGM fix all the bugs in BiaB and develop the VSTi further prior to adding new products. YMMV

PS - I am a Jedi. My real name is Obi One Cannoli

Mario.
re Fixes. i must agree with you of course.
in fact let me add (and its in my wishlist posts) i'm doing a very complex song in biab right now where..instead of pushes within a bar i would love to have a "slide" flexible feature instead of exporting a piece of audio to an editor or a daw and repositioning a clip that way.

(btws...i LOVE all food italian..and have spent many pleasant times in the past in Italy... they really know their food. )
anyways your the midi jedi as far as i'm concerned.

best
oldmuso

Regarding the cost of things.... they are priced according to the quality you get in the sounds mostly. Better quality stuff has multiple sampling layers and that takes time and costs more to do. I used to grab a lot of free stuff.... samples and especially the SFZ stuff. Yeah, it was better then the default Microsoft player, but the samples had a lot to be desired. That's one reason when I built my DAW many years ago, I didn't bother transferring SFZ or the sample library I had accumulated for it to the new DAW.

Years ago in the Cakewalk forums, there were a variety of folks from all sorts of backgrounds, musically speaking. In one of the forums, folks would post on the new software they had found and especially on the greatest and latest "no-brainer' deals going on including when companies like East West was giving away.... yes as in FREE, a version of their software. Essentially, if you are in the right forums and keep up with what is going on, you can snag freebies from companies you normally have to pay a lot of money to in order to get their VST's and sample libraries. NI does a number of freebies from time to time but you gotta look for them and act quickly.

I think my Mirislav and E/W synth samplers are part of those freebies from years past.

All.
this has been a very informative thread.
and i really DO appreciate everyones input and comments/suggestions. cos this whole libs topic ive
realised is my achilles heel.
ive been doing a lot of further reaearch.

i'm used to banging out mostly my silly old rok and sometimes comedy songs with an occasional ballad as the mood strikes me. but i want to challenge myself more.
my apologies for asking some further questions and clarifications.
as follows...
1. with regard to major tv and films what are the major orchestral and other libs people use ? it would seem there is an array of suppliers ?.
maybe 2 dozen in total ?
who are the major suppliers ?
ive heard of for example east west and vienna. others ?
is there a list somewhere i can explore further to save troubling you good people further ?
ive used google but cant pin a definitive list down.
2. how do the major composers for film and tv in useing a big name lib ensure "their finished sound/composition is unique". ?
this is something i'm trying but failing to understand. ie if all the top composers are useing all the top libs...how do they..the pro's ensure "uniqueness" ?
OR is this not an issue ?
3. with all the big libs at their disposal and big film budgets for example....how do the top composers deal with the time needed for going through a ton of samples to find their "golden nuggets" for their project ?
for example some composers must have terabytes and terabytes to go through ? i'm just trying to understand their process.
ie do they methodically go through libs like i spend days trying to find the best biab RT's/"nuggets" that might fit a new song of mine ?
how do major tv/film composers find their "kapow" or their breakthrough sound moments ? where they finally rest their heads on their pillows at night and go
"i did it"...and they are happy with their work ?
4. what friendly user forums are there where composers for major film/tv hang out ? where i might learn more ?

thanks for any further input.

best
oldmuso