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This thread is getting novel length and I may be conflating different "objections" into one reply, but here goes.
I started my computer-aided music making with loops. Acid software from Sound Forge...20 + years ago. It still exists, having gone through the hands of first Sony, and now Magix. I was also a regular listener and contributor to it's "showcase"--Acid Planet--as were some other members of this forum. It no longer exists. I heard some good stuff, and an awful lot of awful stuff from people who painted three loops coast to coast and called it a song.
As is the case here, the "best" loop-based material had other input. Live recordings, synths, samples, vocals, whatever.
IF you are looking for a music creation method that will bend to your will in ways that some are complaining RT's do not, you are going to be very disappointed with loop libraries. Even free ones. Even massive ones.
The "one to four bar phrases" that BIAB delivers in RT segments are in some significant ways LIKE LOOPS. BIAB manipulates it's RT phrases with input to and from the program...tempo, key, chords, groove adjustments, time and pitch stretching, etc. combined with intelligence. That's the way loops work. It's just the input method that is different.
Modern production relies heavily on loops, midi, and samples. Even live recordings are often "looped". Making a loop out of a human (non-quantized) performance is a skill. Cutting a smaller snippet may be a skill as well, but it is not anywhere near as difficult. In "loop" parlance, we referred to these "snippets" as One-Shots.
In modern production you are stuck with loop libraries unless you know how to make your own loops. You can make a loop with midi. You can make a loop with audio. You can even make a loop out of other loops. But until you know how to make one yourself, you're going to be limited to the sounds resident in the loop. And unless you just enjoy making loops which may or may not ever have any real-use application, you're going to need to do it in the creation of the project.
And then you have to be creative in using them. Modern production might have 40, 60 or 100 tracks, some of which may only play for a beat or two.
I haven't looked into the link Jim provided yet. I've no doubt they've simplified and automated the process considerably since I gave up trying to make complete pieces with them. They can be "fun" and add some significant sparkle to a piece, But unless you create your own, on the fly, and manipulate the hell out of them, you are not setting yourself free. Not by a long shot.
For me? Viva BIAB. I'd have never touched a loop if I'd known about it way back then. Besides, there are thousands of hours of live play ready to be sampled, manipulated, and even "loopified" that come in the package.
Have fun.
Last edited by Tangmo; 07/29/21 01:20 PM.
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I am beginning to have a very DejaVue moment. I now remember working quite a bit with loops - likely some two decades ago. Tangmo helped me recall. His experience sounds frightenly similar to my own. I remember working with Fruity Loops. It was a lot of fun and in early days of recording it was pretty flashy. But I never really made any music with it. As I am finding now loops and loop based music is not the workflow I have honed my recording skills and will not help me achieve my music objectives. Trying to relearn this is not what I should be doing. For me it is a step backwards. Furthermore, I am more than convinced that the content of BIAB, with all its strengths and limitations, is not what is restricting my music making. It is not even on the top 10 list. So just to close this loop (pun intended), for me and mine, the conclusion regarding Loops is it is not for us. 
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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I'm not following this thread actively, but I recall when Fruity Loops became FL Studio. I also experimented with loops, including acidized ones, quickly got bored, and determined to go in another direction. I do not agree loops are essential for music making or the future development of BIAB, as implied by someone earlier. Loops seemed to be a fad at the time. Of course, like anything else in music, I'm sure someone can make great music with them but I find them far too limiting.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I only use loops for percussion, like a tambourine played in way better time than I can pay it. Shaker instruments, etc... I don't consider looping a 4 bar phrase 28 times and reciting beat poetry over it to be music.
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Tangmo, I'm pretty sure +++ Producer Planet +++ is the old Acid Planet website and content. At least it recognized my Acid Planet sign-in. The site is not as active as it once was. The site doesn't have the monthly song from furnished loop pack contest it use to have. Back in the day Acid Planet was a fun site with an active showcase and forum.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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The real question here is what do you consider loops? Thanx to Tangmo I recalled Acid Planet and my feeble attempt at using acid audio loops. I found acid type audio loops very limiting. I still do today. The only acid type audio loops I use today are percussion loops like shakers, tambourines, and occasionally drums. BUT a lot of string instrument software uses loops. For instance a number of guitar strumming programs use loops, i.e. press a key or two and get a guitar strumming said chord. https://www.applied-acoustics.com/strum-gs-2/library/https://realitone.com/products/realibanjohttps://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/kinetic-string-motion-engine/and NI Session Guitars just to name a few. Plus you can save either the audio and/or the MIDI output on many of these. How about MIDI drum loops? There are a ton of them out there. Plus there are MIDI loops for a lot of instruments available from a number of companies. So when we are talking loops we must specify exactly what kind of loops we are talking about. In fact I call RTs intelligent loops, both the audio and the MIDI side of them. YMMV
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I guess that we're lucky that this post stayed on track. Sometimes they drift a little bit 
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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This is the original post.
"Just cancelled my cross grade to 2021 mac version , I hope by now i can give a a view to my honest opinion without being shot down (I'm ducking anyway ).
I know utility tracks etc . have been added and so on !. but sorry its the same old , same old styles patterns !
We have had year on and year on , its not getting the even modern basics for song writers !, its a brilliant programme .as in what we can do ...enter chords and the musicians play them Wow ! . But that was back then and this is now .
Believe me this is no way a negative post, this is a constructive one !!.
Listen really listen to the new real tracks and styles , Brilliant for Americana, country etc.
I posted a song using my midi keyboard and my Roland Bk 7 m module !! a few comments i got where ...ah ! they copy styles of songs?artist etc for live gigging ?. Even from a PG Music staff !!. so does PG music for heavens sake if your an america/ country writer Yea all good !!.
A don't think the age group on the users of Biab is an Issue , i believe its stuck in its core as in when it was produced / commercialiased to a software programme .
I hear great work on the user showcase forum , Brilliant stuff , but I'm sorry i listen and every time i go Wow !! be brilliant if the chorus section had more of an uplifting effect than what it has at the moment !.
Just my tuppence worth as they say here in my Homeland , 2021 was not good at all to me !!.
Again please respect my opinion !! as i have felt this for a long time ! . I see posts of many songs and most time i listen and hear the same old guitar bass and drum styles etc > .aAnd wonderful performances as in the vocals the lyrics and i honestly i know the song is much better if only !!."
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Just loaded my version of Mixcraft yesterday, it comes with a load of loops and i think what Jim meant construction loops as well !.
I have been using it to learn the loops before any strong purchase , Getting the feel of them is no bother in Mixcraft (loops are theirs so ..!) .
I feel they do have a part as has Biab, with them along side as a good strong writing tool and i also feel they are the missing link .
This has put the spark in me again !.
And I hope a food for thought in PG Music ?.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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There is a lot to like about Mixcraft 9, especially $49 for Recording Studio and $99 for Pro. Pro is an especially good value when you consider it includes Melodyne Essentials which costs $99 on its own. Both include a pile of content.
I hope you continue to enjoy it.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Look at the overwhelming massive response, excitement and enthusiasm here: ReaTracks Artist Chris Nole UserTracks unbelievable the amount of responses isn't it ! If users want something different that is how you get it, if you get together and just hire a session player you can get what you want or get the session player to sell the tracks. UserTracks are working a lot better now than they did originally, sure there are things that need adding to make them perfect but they are usable. Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this. Rather than sit back, wait n hope like chickens waiting to be fed, engage in it. Look at the Reaper forum there are so many different threads with users contributing and creating addons for other users to use with Reaper. The users drive Reaper, Reaper don't drive the users. I have recommend PG to add user shortcuts/buttons that can be set to any Biab function no matter how deep it is within menu trees. This will allow for macros and scripting. There is no reason it can't be more user driven, in the above post link, engage, contribute and encourage. Look here: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=597652#Post597652Floyd posted some free session drum tracks and I made them into UserDrumTracks, they can also be made into actual RealDrums. There are plenty of Session Drummers out there you can ask to make up the style you need, and they can sell them or you get together and all pitch in to hire them. I can't be the only one here that has to do it. Don't sit back for another 10 years hoping and praying.
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From here: Whatever happened to Hammond B3 Soloist? I got onto ReaTracks Artist Chris Nole and suggested creating some UserTracks that could be purchased from his website. There could maybe be a short free UserTrack for each instrument as a demo, then ones with a lot more material for purchase. He would like to offer up tracks, styles, keyboard instruments that people are needing/wanting. You can find examples here https://chrisnole.com/online-piano-tracksSo any suggestions would be much appreciated.
If you could suggest Biab Styles/Sw Ev/Tempos for the keys listed below including B3.Specializing in piano, organ, electric piano, strings, and synth overdubs for Singer-Songwriter, Country, Blues, Pop, Rock, Gospel,
R&B-Soul, Americana, and New Age genres.
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Hi Pipeline,
Thanks - I have had a listen to Chris Nole playing on his website and he sure is talented.
I'm really looking forward to the next release of Band In A box to hear their new Organ and Blues Harp Solo tracks.
Also their new Jump Brass Section Real tracks.
Best Regards
Nigel
Nigel Spiers
Christchurch, New Zealand
info@nzacoustics.com
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"Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this.
Rather than sit back, wait n hope like chickens waiting to be fed, engage in it. Look at the Reaper forum there are so many different threads with users contributing and creating addons for other users to use with Reaper. The users drive Reaper, Reaper don't drive the users."
Aside from being characterized as 'chickens waiting to be fed', which is in itself patently insulting, your entire premise doesn't hold water. Reaper is a DAW, BIAB is an Auto Accompaniment program. Reaper sells for $60, BIAB costs you $569.
"Rather than sit back and wait for PG to give you the tracks you need, the community needs to develop and drive this."
For $569, and $399 for an upgrade, I don't expect to do R&D for the company. You may have the time to do that; I don't.
Regards.
Bob
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Good to see you back and on form Bob, 
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The biggest drawback to RealTracks is not the musicians, but the fact that you are confined to the instrumentation that PG chooses to use. This is almost always traditional instrumentation. This may be fine for most forum members who tend to skew older. However, from time to time much has been made of the product not appealing to younger music makers and the look of the interface has been blamed. I believe it is not the interface or the musicians, but the featured music that does not appeal to potential younger users.
MIDI SuperTracks are the answer. To make music sound fresh and modern you need to use comtemporary instrumentation. With MST You are not bound by the instrument that the track was performed on. These tracks are only data and can be applied to the infinite number of patches available with todays modern synths and romplers.
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MIDI SuperTracks are the answer. Not too loud, that is a bit of a secret around here.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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Some of the MIDI styles are OK also. But I am biased as I use MIDI 99.9% of the time.
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Aside from being characterized as 'chickens waiting to be fed', which is in itself patently insulting, your entire premise doesn't hold water. Reaper is a DAW, BIAB is an Auto Accompaniment program. Reaper sells for $60, BIAB costs you $569.
For $569, and $399 for an upgrade, I don't expect to do R&D for the company. You may have the time to do that; I don't. Yet, still here we are year after year after year. You don't have to pay that if you don't like the tracks offered: Upgrade from
2020/2021
$69Reaper can be anything you like for $60, it can do Auto Accompaniment if you so like. I don't come here to lie and make things as hard as possible for users. There are so many features in Biab that "you" yourself now use because I spend a hell of a lot of time here and in the beta forum giving development ideas to PG. I tell the truth to help users, whether they choose to listen, attack or ignore that is their issue. I got out of my way to help users and contribute. Why do things I say go over the top of heads ??, I see this all the time, BUT years later when understanding kicks in they become common place. I have seen users in the past knock ideas I suggested only to see the same users recommend this now new feature to other users. True story. Baffling mystery beyond comprehension ??? "Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."This does take a lot out of me, you maybe right, I may be be crazy to keep at it
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- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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