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Perhaps everyone but me has discovered what I am about to describe.
The first note of several songs I have analyzed starts on the fifth scale degree.
Hey Jude, sang in the key of F by Paul. The first note is C.
Big City, Merle Haggard Key of E. The first note is B.
Star-Spangled Banner, in the key of C. The first note is G
I am sure there must be hundreds of other examples. I just never noticed this before.
"After you’ve been studying music theory, one thing that you’ll start noticing is that the perfect fifth seems to be a recurring theme. This interval is the most consonant of all intervals which can be formed from a different note other than the root. Many people believe this interval is the basis of harmony." a quoit from hubguitar.com
Obviously, songs can start on any scale degree but there does seem to be something special in starting a melody line on the fifth.
As I analyze my own melodies I find I am most often starting on the root and sometimes on the ninth. Starting one phrase on the ninth and the following one on the fifth.
There is this guy Joseph Bologne, Chavalier de Saint-Georges that I like. One of his claims to fame was his ability to create one great melodic line after another in a single work. He is sort of "required" study if you live in Paris...lol
I am slowly beginning to understand the relevance of studying classical music and the use of those ideas in popular song creation.
Feedback?
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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I find Hookpad ( https://hookpad.hooktheory.com/) and its related database TheoryTab DB a great resource for analysis of songs if you have not come across it before. It is also a fun way to put together the structure of a song which you can then transfer over to BIAB or vice versa if you want to. Patrick
BIAB 2025 Ultrapak, Mixcraft Pro 10.5
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Thank you Patrick. I will give it a look. That is something new to me.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Billy,
You are so right. And classical music...oh yeah. I start off every day with Bach, because as Pablo Casals is supposed to have said, "I don't know about you, but I like to start off the first two hours of my day with God."
But your observation on Hey Jude was so keen, so astute, so right on target, so perfect, and so marvelous in all ways it almost seems like you have been talking with a super genius.
Where oh where did you stumble upon this? Have you been talking to Paul??? Or someone else.
Man, I gotta know.
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What is this "perfect fifth" of which you speak?
Jim, George, Jack, or Crown?
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/26/21 01:04 PM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Herb,
He's talking about Episcopalians.
As the Bible teaches us:
"Wherever you find two or three of them gathered together, you will also find a fifth."
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Isn't that HookPad something, Patrick. Thanks for finding it.
NCH Crescendo permits users to plug notes into a staff, in a
little different way.
Well, Billy, you may have opened up an area of interest here that
could turn into something quite challenging. Good thing David is
interested. He's one of many truly accomplished who hang out here.
Me? In my current composition, the notes on the first three bars
of the line are devoted to the melody. Tie the last note of the
third line to the first note of the fourth bar, make that one a
quarter note, and use the remaining three notes of the fourth bar
to play a walkup, walkdown, or fill. Rinse and repeat.
This opens up some theory challenges, but also provides some
structure and logic to the lines. Song is in G. Intro is CCGG/DDGG.
Sure enough, all four melody lines of the first 16 bar verse
lead off with the fifth -- d for the two G chords and a for the two D chords. Hmm..
Last edited by edshaw; 08/26/21 02:11 PM.
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Hi David,
I wish Paul would come over and stay a few days at my house. I am sure he would like my wife's cooking and we could go ride around in the boat. I would go to great lengths to protect his privacy.
I have a habit of talking to myself actually. It may seem strange but everyone knows I have PTSD so I can get away with it...lol
In a quest to find better melodies I started to wonder if they had elements in common. They are often short phrases that have to start and stop somewhere. They generally need to resolve to something or have some feeling of connection to the next phrase or two but they need to resolve or we are left hanging or worse.
I started sustaining a C chord in my left hand to construct melodies. I found that if I started on the fifth, songs I know just started to appear. So I went looking for songs that started on the fifth.
If you sustain a chord and start an octave up, that note will obviously sound good. It is perhaps the most common place to start a melody. Leaving passing tones out of the discussion for the moment and assuming one is not looking for discordance purposely only certain notes are available. Obviously, the minor second sounds discordant as hell. The D note is the 9th which can be both a melody note and change the C major chord to C add 9. The minor third...well you get the point. So what this teaches me is not so much which note to start on but which not to start on or use.
There are other ways to look at these issues from a mathematical perspective of the physics of sound but that is a pretty arcane subject for most musicians.
I need to buy some well-written sheet music to analyze some of the classic music. None of us learn music in a vacuum so there is nothing strange in picking good ideas from the music you like.
We have a tradition in the blues world that if I play the song more than twice I wrote it...lol
There is a lot to learn.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/26/21 02:41 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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I resemble that remark!
...Deb
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Cool website. I have no idea about music theory other than the basics.
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[quote=PatrickS]
I have no idea about music theory other than the basics. Me either !! I do know one thing. Most music is not science. It's feel. You can study all the courses, theory, and all that stuff and still struggle if you don't feel it. I always relate a lot of music to the gospel an baptist church people. They don't know crap about structure and have the best keyboardist/organist, drummer and man the vocalists are unreal. They go with the flow :-)
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I have no idea about music theory other than the basics. Me either !! I do know one thing. Most music is not science. It's feel. You can study all the courses, theory, and all that stuff and still struggle if you don't feel it. I always relate a lot of music to the gospel an baptist church people. They don't know crap about structure and have the best keyboardist/organist, drummer and man the vocalists are unreal. They go with the flow :-) Not knowing theory is fine, if that's the way you make music. Others make music in a more theory-based way, and that's fine, too. Not using theoretical principles does not make your music more authentic, or organic, or whatever. A prison work song is a prison work song, and a Baroque fugue is a Baroque fugue. PS – I doubt most Baptist church music directors would agree that they "don't know crap about structure". First of all I'm not anti music structure.. 2nd. I did not say "music Directors. I said musicians and vocalists. I'll just leave this right here. No need to go any further. Of course you can have the last word if you wish.
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You are so right. And classical music...oh yeah. I start off every day with Bach, because as Pablo Casals is supposed to have said, "I don't know about you, but I like to start off the first two hours of my day with God."
On that note, is it not Bach who is associated with arpeggiated chords as much as anyone? Thinking about the fugues and not counting Flatt & Scruggs. Back when I was a student of hillbilly music theory, I practiced chord theory endlessly on the clavier. Well, actually it was a $35 battery operated portable Yamaha keyboard from Wal Mart, but for all intents and purposes....Anyway, I was surprised and delighted when the 1-4-5 arpeggios strung together sounded something like music; by accident, really.
Last edited by edshaw; 09/01/21 03:03 AM.
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Chaconne, Italian Ciaccona, solo instrumental piece that forms the fifth and final movement of the Partita No. 2 in D Minor, BWV 1004, by Johann Sebastian Bach. If you go to 4.50 in this Bach piece you can see and hear the use of arpeggios written in Bach's own hand. https://youtu.be/U2UyC2VcOj0A century and a half after Bach composed the piece, Johannes Brahms wrote: On a single staff, for a small instrument, the man writes a whole world of the deepest thoughts and the most powerful feelings. What amazes me is this sounds as modern as it does classical. Far be it for me to pontificate on classical music...lol I know nothing more than what I hear...lol Analyzing and critically thinking about what I hear and see written in music is the only way I have to understand how it is made. This is not to discount Henry's comment about feel. I think I understand very well what he was trying to express. While science may not be able to produce music it is the only device we have to define it that is reproducible by people everywhere. I doubt seriously that I will spend any time in purgatory for my predilection for science...lol The word "music" has in fact no universal definition in my mind. In many cultures, there is no word "music". "Although we may find it hard to imagine, many cultures, such as those found in the countries of Africa or among some indigenous groups, don’t have a word for music. Instead, the relationship of music and dance to everyday life is so close that the people have no need to conceptually separate the two." Enough from me for one day. Chears, Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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I found this to be an interesting video on "The Death Of Melody" It also irritates me and makes me wonder if I should be studying how to eliminate melody in things I am writing....lol https://youtu.be/K0Vn9V-tRCoBilly
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/31/21 11:03 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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In closing, he shows scenes of young adults gathered around the table, each absorbed in his or her own smart phone, seemingly oblivious to the presence of others. Hmmmm....
Last edited by edshaw; 09/02/21 08:54 AM.
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In closing, he shows scenes of young adults gathered around the table, each absorbed in his or her own smart phone, seemiingly oblivious to the presence of others. Hmmmm.... I see this in restaurants all the time. Even families at a table with each one of them on the phone. WTH (What The Heck - PC version)!
Doc-take it easy John this is just a sharp scalpel. It will not cut deep so don't worry.
Me-I'm not John
Doc-I know, I am!
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I was in the gym working out today, and FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE Y'ALL!!!-- And I had an album of 80s hits on my MP3 player. So I hit play. Some of those songs gave me goosebumps. I remember when music did. I miss those days. When I listen to most of the crap today I feel nothing. It feels musically dead and devoid of all heart, art and soul. I don't feel a thing, most of the time. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You can call me an old cranky such and such but I don't give a flying flip. I HATE modern music and most of modern culture. It's crap. So there. 
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I remember when people who got gersberms from 60's music were saying that same bad stuff about 80's music, with its soulless sequencers and such.
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But Mark, I don't care what other people say or think. This is social media man. I only care what I say!! Dawn of Mankind to 1955--Great 56-74 Great 75 - 85 Almost Great 86-92, Sort of 93-2000 starting to loose its grip 2001-2010, not totally horrible, only mostly 2011-2018 Mostly Awful 2019-2020, Hmmmmmm....End of Days???? 2021--Please God make it stop.
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