Originally Posted By: Pipeline
"A RealTrack must be rendered into an audio file (WAV, WMA, MP3, MP4) to be used in a DAW and the same is true for a RealTrack generated on a Utility Track and the same is true for Reaper. "
I thought you didn't want to use a DAW and just stay in Biab ?
The tracks generated in Reaper are not rendered there is no extra wavs written, it's only data, there is only rendering when you do a downmix to 1 stereo file.
Look at the attached pic, both Biab and RealBand have the identical tracks saved but look at the file size. Reaper has the same file size as a frozen SGU.
How many wavs will you have on the hard drive with all util tracks and more than 255 bars ?
You are creating masses of unnecessary wav files filling up the hard drive. What bit rate and sample rate are they saved to if you are saving every thing to wav ?

"There's no difference to the user between recording live audio onto a Utility Track and generating a RealTrack."
If you are recording you are creating a new wav, if you generate you don't need to create new wav files you just play the existing wav files on the 1.5 TB drive that is full of wav files, why fill up your hard drive with copies of the same files ?

"The 5 rendered tracks in your gif are WAV files as well as the comp track being a WAV file." there is no rendering as in no physical wav files created. The saved Reaper project is only like 200k not 200meg.

"How does a regular BB track behave differently than a Utility Track that makes Utility Tracks a workaround rather than a feature? What do users want done differently?" the util tracks are RealBand all over again, look at the size of the RealBand SEQ file, what if I had all 48 tracks over 255 bars how big would it be compared to the Reaper project file with 100 RealTracks and RealDrums ??

Non destructive editing can change any FX for any section of any track at anytime you like you can't do that with destructive wav FX.
You can have a DI guitar with a different FX on different sections of the song on many tracks but you can easily change the FX, I don't mean track FX but section/bar FX. If I apply Audio Effect in RealBand to the wav, that's it.

RealBand is ideal just how it is if you want to work with wavs, destructive editing and massive file sizes.
A lot a Biab users don't use RealBand as they like how Biab worked, but to add what they don't like about RealBand to Biab is going backward.
"How does a regular BB track behave differently than a Utility Track that makes Utility Tracks a workaround rather than a feature? What do users want done differently?"
To have all the Generate options as the RealTrack Picker proper, RealDrum Picker, UserTrack Picker, Loop Picker, MST Picker, MIDI Style tracks Picker or any other PICKER there is like Rusty's Multi Picker.
If the RT/UT/RD/LOOPS Util tracks saved like frozen BB tracks rather than wav files that would be better wouldn't it ?


Can I go to bed now ? sleep



<< I thought you didn't want to use a DAW and just stay in Biab? >>
I don't use a DAW and do stay in BIAB for audio editing and comping. I was referring to those that do use a DAW. The tracks generated in BIAB are not rendered, there are no extra WAV's written until the file in rendered to a stereo file. It doesn't matter what RealBand's size is. It isn't relative to BIAB projects.

You are not correct that BIAB, RealBand and the Plug-in all have to have large WAV files to edit audio. It's true for RealBand and the Plug-in but we're not talking RealBand and the Plug-in or Reaper but only about BIAB. The request is to edit in BIAB. That's Legacy Tracks, the Audio Track and Utility Tracks in BIAB. To generate five tracks in BIAB and to comp from those five tracks only generates a single stereo file when editing is done and the comp track rendered. This results in a BIAB file as you say, around 100-135 Kb. There are no masses of unnecessary WAV files filling up the hard drive only a single stereo/mono WAV. I'll post screen shots.

<< There's no difference to the user between recording live audio onto a Utility Track and generating a RealTrack. >>
If you do a live recording in Reaper you're creating a new WAV. If you generate a RealTrack in BIAB it will just play from the existing WAV file on the 1.5 TB drive that's full of WAV files. I agree, there's no need to fill up the hard drive with copies of the same file. My point about live recorded audio and generating is there's no distinction between the audio to BIAB or Reaper for that matter.

<< The 5 rendered tracks in your gif are WAV files as well as the comp track being a WAV file."there is no rendering as in no physical wav files created. The saved Reaper project is only like 200k not 200meg. >>
Those same 5 rendered tracks in BIAB aren't WAV files and neither is the comp track a WAV file. There's no rendering and no WAV file created until the single stereo file of the comped track has been edited and comped from the 5 RealTracks and the user satisfied with that track and render's it to a stereo WAV. The BIAB project is saved as an normal SGU file and if the user ever needs to reconstruct that exact comp again, the user only needs to open the SGU file and render that track again. That BIAB project is around 100Kb or less compared to Reaper's 200K

<< How does a regular BB track behave differently than a Utility Track that makes Utility Tracks a workaround rather than a feature? What do users want done differently?"the util tracks are RealBand all over again, look at the size of the RealBand SEQ file, what if I had all 48 tracks over 255 bars how big would it be compared to the Reaper project file with 100 RealTracks and RealDrums?? >>

BIAB is not RealBand and has many features that are not included in RealBand or the Plug-in, neither of those programs are full-featured BIAB programs. The size of a RealBand SEQ file regardless of the track numbers or Bar length is not relevant. A BIAB project with 100 RealTRacks and RealDrums would be considerably smaller than a Reaper Project.

<< "If I apply Audio Effect in RealBand to the wav, that's it." >>
BIAB is not RealBand, if you apply Plug-in Audio Effect (Flanger) to a RealTrack, the effect can be turned off any time prior to the song being rendered with the effect. There's no WAV until the track is rendered in BIAB.

<< "RealBand is ideal just how it is if you want to work with wavs, destructive editing and massive file sizes." >>

BIAB is not RealBand... Does not behave like RealBand. It has more features, techniques and processes than RealBand, Audacity, Reaper, Sonar, Logic, Pro-Tools, Studio One, Cakewalk and every other DAW in the world. BIAB stands alone and it's two built-in audio editors can do things DAWs can't do. It can do them faster and better and all without creating masses of WAV files filling up the hard drive.

<< "How does a regular BB track behave differently than a Utility Track that makes Utility Tracks a workaround rather than a feature? What do users want done differently?"
To have all the Generate options as the RealTrack Picker proper, RealDrum Picker, UserTrack Picker, Loop Picker, MST Picker, MIDI Style tracks Picker or any other PICKER there is like Rusty's Multi Picker. >>

Those are all features I fully support users presenting on the Wishlist and PG Music implementing. However, none of them have anything to do with editing audio in BIAB including generating, highlighting, fx's or file size. So yes, go for that full steam...

<< If the RT/UT/RD/LOOPS Util tracks saved like frozen BB tracks rather than wav files that would be better wouldn't it? >>
Yes, this would be beneficial but is not crucial. This is the only item in BIAB that you've mentioned that presently requires a workaround but only as it applies to the Audio Track and Utility Tracks.

I have attached a screen shot of the Comp SGU Main Screen and of two WAV forms created by generating 5 RealTracks and comping them onto a Utility Track. The left screen shot was captured after the comped Utility Track was rendered onto a WAV file. The 5 Utility Tracks were frozen and the Utility Track was erased. I also saved the track and bar selections into the song memo and the SGU project saved and closed.

The right side screen shot was made by opening that saved file with the 5 frozen RealTracks, selecting and pasting onto the Utility Track the same bars for each track exactly like they're listed in the memo and since the 5 RealTracks were frozen when the file was previously save, the result is an exact reproduction of the original Comp track. The Comp SGU file is only 160kb and as many exact copies can be rendered as the user wants or the same 5 RealTracks can be used to create a new Comp file or minor editing can be used to fix small issues that arise later in the project.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
Main Screen of Comp SGU.jpg (284.32 KB, 179 downloads)
Screenshot Comps 1 and 2.jpg (153.26 KB, 178 downloads)
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