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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 157
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 157 |
Good Day John - many users (maybe just me?) sometimes use a mix of Realtracks/Realdrums and MIDI to effect the music creation process. BIAB is music creation software and it should not be necessary for licensed users to scrounge around to obtain a fair quality integrated GM sound. PG still markets and sells MIDI styles and should support the styles with a decent GM sound set. That is merely my opinion as a licensed user - as an example I have not indicated in the post that the acoustic guitar should sound like a 1937 D45 Martin or the acoustic piano like a Steinway or whatever. Those users would then target the Garritan's etc. Just a solid integrated GM sound set would do fine.
Regards
Roy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 177
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Bob, I wanted to thank you for your last 2 posts. You spent a huge amount of time writing these. I found them incredibly valuable for orientation, history and distinctions about what features might or might not be valuable for certain users. As a new user of BIAB this was invaluable. It was the RT sound quality that attracted me and encouraged me to buy BIAB. Then as a newbie I have been trying to understand what all the MIDI stuff was about (I have no history of exposure to MIDI in the past other than experiencing the "sound" of it in simple MIDI backing track programs).
So again I want to acknowledge you and thank you for those 2 very interesting and helpful posts. At least for me they were a real contribution and really helped me know where to concentrate! Super cool.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
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Thanks. This issue with PG providing good midi sounds has been asked since I first started with Biab in 2005. 2005!! Damn...
Anyway, PG is not in the synthesizer business, they're in the music creation software business. When you look at the big name DAW's they don't provide any synths either but they are affiliated with companies that do like Steinberg, Cubase, Pro Tools etc. It's totally up to the user to decide what synths to buy to go along with the DAW software. We used to say in answer to this question that Biab has no sounds of it's own and technically that is still true but when they came out with the Real Tracks/Drums that blurred that line. If you're talking midi only, then it's literally true. The only thing that actually included with Biab is the Sforzando plugin and even then you have to install it. Many don't bother because they have other sources for sounds.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
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BIAB is music creation software and it should not be necessary for licensed users to scrounge around to obtain a fair quality integrated GM sound. PG still markets and sells MIDI styles and should support the styles with a decent GM sound set. This is not an illogical opinion it's just that PG is not a synthesizer company. They must "scrounge around" as you said to find something that's free. To give you an idea of how popular GM is they used to sell the Bandstand GM synth by Native Instruments for $100 I think it was but it was discontinued. They also used to sell the Edirol Hypercanvass which was a physical disc in a box and is basically the TTS-1 now, for 50 bucks or something and that was discontinued too. As far as I know now there is no really good quality software GM synth available anywhere. There is a few hardware synths with good GM sounds and there was one that PG used to sell called the Ketron SD4. Very good sounds but it's a module that you physically connect to your computer and then you have to run individual speaker cables out to your monitoring system. And it cost $500. Ketron has a new one here: https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_sd_1000.htm$422 is a great price and if the sound quality is the same as the original unit it's really good. You should consider it if you can live with a physical desktop module. The sounds are way better than any of the softwares we're talking about. IKMutimedia (SampleTank) is software and had or maybe still does have a GM soundset called Sonicsynth but it's not a standalone synth, it's a sound library you install into Sample Tank. You can get an old version of ST for free and then buy that GM soundset but even then you can't just plug it into Biab and you don't have to do anything. You still have to do some configuration for each song you want to use it with. This is why I only heard of a very few people using it. GM is not popular other than with our little corner of the musical universe. We're not a large enough group to support a whole market so there is nothing else that I know of other than the TTS-1 and Sforzando for free midi sounds and PG does not own either of them. Since they're free they can include Sforzando for you to install with no royalties but obviously Bandlab won't let PG just include the TTS-1, they are willing to let users get it for free but they want you to sign up with them first for obvious reasons. You might decide to buy soimething from them. Anyther possibility some here like is Steinberg's Halion SE. It has a decent sounding GM bank but you have to do the same thing required by Bandlab. You create an account with Steinberg, jump through a few hoops, get it authorized and then you can download and install it. And you'll be getting friendly emails from Steinberg forever touting all their other paid software. For me since I'm a big geek anyway and Steinberg is one of the biggest music production software companies around, I like seeing what they have but maybe you don't. Good midi sounds has been a problem for PG for as long as I've been using Biab and I'm sure that's a big reason why the RT's were created. Now you have the ability to use Playable Real Tracks so you can make them do what you want. That doesn't help with the Biab midi styles though, you still need some kind of synth for those and I think PG is running out of options. I understand what you wrote saying you don't need the high end sounds, just a good midi sound set is good enough. The problem is there a big gap between the the freebies and the Ketron. The other software synths don't even offer GM other than that Sample Tank soundbank. Unless PG wants to create a whole new division of the company and write one themselves the only choices for free are these. You may not understand that sampling physical instruments to create the samples to use in a synth is hugely expensive. The amount of free samples available are extremely limited. There's a big difference between an individual being allowed to download some free samples to put into the Sforzando free player for example and a commercial company asking to do it when they're going to be used to support their paid products. Here's something that just occurred to me. Since the Playable Real Tracks are somehow tied into the Sforzando which is a midi synth and PG already has this huge library of RT's maybe the plan is over time to use those recordings to create their own GM midi patches and ultimately that will be the default synth for us to use? No idea if that's the plan but it sounds cool. Bob
Last edited by jazzmammal; 12/27/21 11:48 AM.
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 177
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 177 |
Bob, another great post for me. I spent a lot of time trying out all the options for creating MIDI sounds and asked a ton of questions on the forum. It was an interesting journey, but in the end, for my tastes, I didn't like the sounds even though each solution did sound different. Your excellent posts have explained to me why and now I am getting the big picture. Since I do not write or compose music (at this point) and I bought BIAB specifically to make great customizable backing tracks for improvisation practice and guitar technique practice, I have now realized that I can completely ignore MIDI everything for now. That is a wonderful realization on how I can focus down on what I need. So I am just going to leave the Jjazzlab sounds for MIDI in place and stop fussing around. I think for now I will simply set the defaults in my style picker to just give me RTs and nothing else. The playable RTs sound fascinating, but a "for later" feature for me.
So again your incredibly thorough posts helped clarify all of this for me. I don't think I would have gotten here without your contribution.
As for making backing tracks for my practice of all things "guitar", I am having a ball making quick tracks, and changing style to keep interest up and challenge rhythm aspects and they all sound just great through my practice studio monitors and amp sim. What a great tool for my purposes!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,286
Veteran
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Posts: 24,286 |
Bob brings up a good point and that was GM is slowly fading into the sunset. AFAIK there are no new GM soft or hard synths being produced. The only programs using GM are backing track programs, companies selling covers in MIDI, and educational programs. AFAIK the majority of MIDI users do not use GM. I have some individual sounds that are larger in size then a complete GM set.
If one wants better MIDI sounds one must learn how to add a sound to a track. If one wants that sound to come to life they must learn a few MIDI commands like CCs, Mod Wheel and Pitch Bend. Even sounds from the free Kontakt and SampleTank are better than BiaB's GM. As Bob said there are a ton of free MIDI sounds available and most all are better then BiaB's GM.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 177
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 177 |
Great comments MarioD. BTW I am anxiously waiting for your next signature line joke... 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 157
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 157 |
Thank you for the comprehensive recollection/s of the soundfont situation wrt BIAB over the years. This has been my experience as well and it is frustrating. Hopefully the playable reatracks become the solution to the occasions where MIDI parts are handy (especially with covers). Regards, Roy
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