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Advice on Vocal Production #695500 01/01/22 04:16 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi All Happy New Year I am having difficulty understanding overdubbing a backing track with a lead vocal versus including the lead vocal in the mixdown. Is it better to mixdown the vocal with the rest of the tracks or can I mixdown the Instruments and then add the vocal to that backing track. What are the pros and cons? I hope I was clear in my explanation. Thanks for any advice,Hugh

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695506 01/01/22 04:37 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,085 Nashville, TN Sundance Veteran
Sundance Veteran Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,085 Nashville, TN	Hello Hugh, Unless it's an instrumental song, the vocal is always the star - the main focus of your song. Your arrangement and your mix is built around the vocal. So mix your vocal and music as a whole. Once your mix is done you can render two versions if you want. One with the vocal and one with just the backing. Hope that helps. Happy New Year, Josie Youtube Channel Soundcloud

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695510 01/01/22 05:08 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,689 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,689	Originally Posted By: Hugh2 Is it better to mixdown the vocal with the rest of the tracks or can I mixdown the Instruments and then add the vocal to that backing track. What are the pros and cons? Just a thought I have in remembrance of my own personal amateur mistakes with non-vocals. If you choose to mix down the backing separately, be careful not to include any kind of reverb that you might not be able to reproduce for the voice. Different reverbs on the backing and the voice might sound great individually but completely weird together, if they create a psychoacoustic space that could not exist in reality. =8^)

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Sundance #695511 01/01/22 05:09 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Thanks Sundance, So what I am doing is this. I am mixing all the tracks with the vocals in and arranging all the instruments to suit the vocals.Then can I just render the two separately and blend them in later?.I am finding my backing track is working out great without the vocals but as soon as I mixdown everything together with the vocals in it is not as good , The vocals dont seem to have the separation I hear when I listen to a pro song even though I have unmasked the vocal etc from interferring freq etc and have left room for the vocal with panning etc. When I listen to a pro song the vocal seems to sail along on the top the backing track while still anchored to the backing track. This is why I am wondering could it be better to attach the two after the mixing process and before the mastering but having mixed the instruments with the vocal in for the mixing process,thanks again H

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Mark Hayes #695512 01/01/22 05:15 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Thanks Mark I was thinking along those lines about reverb and delay and its a very good point.I would be rendering them separately but with the effects on that i would be using and wouldnt be adding any further effects to either after rendering, Perhaps I will try out both and see with the same piece of a song,H

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695528 01/01/22 07:43 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,085 Nashville, TN Sundance Veteran
Sundance Veteran Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,085 Nashville, TN	Hugh, If you can put up a sample song of yours on SoundCloud or Dropbox with a link here. There are lots of terrific ears on here. That would make it easier to offer tweaking suggestions to get your vocal to sit on top of your mix. Nobody starts out as a great vocal mixer. Experiment. Try what you're asking and hear for yourself how it sounds. Josie Youtube Channel Soundcloud

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695561 01/02/22 01:52 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,383 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,383 Mi., USA	"When I listen to a pro song the vocal seems to sail along on the top the backing track while still anchored to the backing track." It's most likely the compression you are hearing that puts the vocals out front (or 'on top'). Last edited by rharv; 01/03/22 07:09 AM. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695597 01/02/22 05:37 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,689 Mark Hayes Expert
Mark Hayes Expert Joined: Jun 2021 Posts: 1,689	Originally Posted By: Hugh2 I was thinking along those lines about reverb and delay and its a very good point. I forget what, but there's software that will analyze a bunch of multitracks and "fix" any reverb it finds so that everything matches. When I saw that I thought, what an odd (and expensive!) product, but apparently the psychoacoustics of reverb are strong in ways you don't have to worry about with other effects.

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #695845 01/03/22 05:05 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark Peters Garage Journeyman
Peters Garage Journeyman Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark	I agree with Sundance - mix everything as a whole around your vocals. A technique I use is: Turn the volume down on all your tracks and then turn up your tracks in the following audible order: 1. The most important track (typically your lead vocal)- none of the other tracks should be able to dominate this track 2. Then the second most important track (typically solo instrument) 3. Third most important 4. I think 5. You 6. Get 7. The Idea 8. Your least important instrument should never be considered louder than any of the other instruments. From experience - limit the number of tracks to a minimum - I've been quite surprised to find out - less is more! (yes I know - it's mentioned everywhere) Then make sure to use panning to create space and the sense of air around each of your tracks. Use EQ to avoid congestion in the low freq - cut in every track except bass and kick/drums. Adjust bass and kick/drums, so they don't compete for the same frequencies at the same time - this might need a dynamic EQ to get right. Use EQ to cut out treble of your less important tracks - a bit like when your hear sounds from a distance the high frequencies are usually not audible at all. Time for Volume Automation and Compression on each track, to make sure each track sonically stays in their sorted order as decided above. Then individually on each track preferably as a "Send" (not inside the track itself)- if needed Add Effects (Modulation, Distortion...carefully, Filtering act) Add Delay Add Reverb - use an EQ and cut out all below 300Hz and Above 4000 Hz before the Reverb Plugin/Device otherwise you'll find it very hard to control you low- and high end(Less is more...) Use a reverb with PreDelay especially for vocals to postpone the reverb effect slightly, as it gives more clarity to your vocal. In the end I usually add a slow compressor on the (Master) Output Track to glue everything together. (A lot of Mastering engineers will tell you not to - and they are right....but I like it, because it adds a tiny scent to the total audio) The pros: You get better control of your mix You can tweak all your tracks until you get the result you want Fix it in the mix gets so much easier It feels awesome, when you manage to put a sublime mix together The cons: It takes a lot of time and practice It sometimes feels counter intuitive, because you almost have to start from scratch at every song you make You sometimes reach the state of dispair and just wish to stop existing :-) ...the alternative solution: Buy Waves CLA Plugin Suite, this will get the job done quickly 9 out of 10 times), it usually sounds pretty good and professional - and it's not too pricey. Yes! you're left with the features (and limitations) of the plugin, but it's time saving. ...the ultimate alternative ...and expensive solution: Get a pro to do it for you I don't know if this was what you asked for...but now at ended up writing it anyway....pressing submit now MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services

Re: Advice on Vocal Production rharv #695944 01/03/22 01:24 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	Originally Posted By: rharv "When I listen to a pro song the vocal seems to sail along on the top the backing track while still anchored to the backing track." It's most likely the compression you are hearing that puts the vocals out front (or 'on top'). What makes it a "pro" song has a lot to do with pro gear. Get yourself one of these, and you will be able to compete. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1176LN--universal-audio-1176ln Expensive, true; but you could probably sell it used for almost what you paid. Regards, Bob Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Peters Garage #695990 01/03/22 06:31 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2020 Posts: 2,766 Victoria, BC Simon - PG Music Veteran
Simon - PG Music Veteran Joined: May 2020 Posts: 2,766 Victoria, BC	Originally Posted By: rharv "When I listen to a pro song the vocal seems to sail along on the top the backing track while still anchored to the backing track." It's most likely the compression you are hearing that puts the vocals out front (or 'on top'). Agreed. Intelligent use of compression (not overcompressing, and also not undercompressing) is key. EQ'ing around the vocals as well - find out the main frequency the vocals are sitting at, and use an EQ to reduce those frequencies from the other instruments that have audio in that range. Originally Posted By: Peters Garage I agree with Sundance - mix everything as a whole around your vocals. SNIP I agree with everything here. Always mix the song with respect to all the other tracks. You need those other tracks there to figure out what to do with the vocals, and you need the vocals there to figure out what to do with the other tracks. Originally Posted By: 90 dB What makes it a "pro" song has a lot to do with pro gear. Get yourself one of these, and you will be able to compete. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1176LN--universal-audio-1176ln Expensive, true; but you could probably sell it used for almost what you paid. As much as I love the 1176 compressor and what it can do on any audio source, I've never subscribed to the theory of "spend money on gear to get professional results". I've used 1176's, 610's, Avalons, API's, SSL boards, DDA boards, Neumann mics, oldschool equipment, custom made stuff (and I custom build a lot of my own electronics) - but all of that fancy gear maybe adds less than 10% more "good stuff" to your sound (unless you're going for a very specific niche sound). I've personally worked on tracks that have 50,000+ plays using minimal equipment, and have worked on tracks on a $350,000 SSL console with nearly a million bucks worth of additional gear where the song never saw the light of day. You are the most important part of the process. If you get yourself any reasonably good audio interface with reasonably good preamps (modern interfaces from Steinberg, Focusrite, Audient, MOTU, and other big name brands are all good), and educate yourself on how to use the plugins included with your DAW (third party plugins are great, but so are the ones you got for free with your DAW), you can get professional results. If you don't believe me, look up Finneas O'Connell - he produced and mixed Billie Eilish in his bedroom, mostly "in the box" in Logic Pro. Also look up I Mother Earth - IIRC one of their latest songs (either The Devil's Engine or We Got The Love, can't remember which) was recorded entirely on SM57 mics and mixed in the box, and those are songs that peaked in the top 10 charts. I work here

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #696049 01/04/22 05:30 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,664 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,664 Middlesex, NC	I tend to create the instrument tracks and get a fairly good mix before I add vocals. Vox are one of the last things that goes into the mix for me. Lead vox first, then any doubles and harmony will follow that. Mixing is best done in an orderly fashion. Bass and drums to start then the rest. Your vocal should sit nicely into and slightly on top of the instrumental bed. Of course, the genre will determine exactly how deep into the mix or on top of the mix your lead vocal will end up. Country tends to have the vocal more on top and up front while metal and rock tend to have it buried a tad more. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Peters Garage #697357 01/10/22 05:32 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Peter Sorry for the late reply and thank you for the advice and detailed answer. I ended up having a problem or lack of understanding regarding Reaper which I use.Reaper has 5 pan modes and the default mode is not the correct mode when using stereo tracks and when I got the panning issue sorted out it cleared a path for the vocals. I then did what you suggested here which I had done before but I rethought my process when it came to reverb and I put two dedicated reverb tracks for the mid and for the side .I also panned the reverb send left or right according to how I panned their original track so I could get the reverb out of the way of the vocal and increase the side information without decreasing the vocal. "Then individually on each track preferably as a "Send" (not inside the track itself)- if needed Add Effects (Modulation, Distortion...carefully, Filtering act) Add Delay Add Reverb - use an EQ and cut out all below 300Hz and Above 4000 Hz before the Reverb Plugin/Device otherwise you'll find it very hard to control you low- and high end(Less is more...) Use a reverb with PreDelay especially for vocals to postpone the reverb effect slightly, as it gives more clarity to your vocal." I also use more compression on the vocal which added an extra few percent.I hope to post a an Mp3 as suggested by Sundance for you guys to listen too soon Thanks for the help

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Guitarhacker #697358 01/10/22 05:38 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Guitarhacker, I think that is the terminolgy I wanted to say but couldnt. My vocals werent doing this and I found out that in Reaper I was using the wrong panning mode for stereo tracks which really helped when I changed and that I wasnt processing my reverb properly which helped greatly when I dug into that problem, "Your vocal should sit nicely into and slightly on top of the instrumental bed." Thanks for the advice much appreciated

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Simon - PG Music #697360 01/10/22 05:47 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Simon Again thanks for the advice and I will look up those suggestions, I appeared to have two major problems and a couple of smaller fixes I use Reaper and it has 5 pan modes and I was using ther wrong one for the Stereo Real Tracks and I also had a reverb problem and I solved this by using two dedicated reverb channels one for the mid and one for the side information .I also panned all my reverb of the instrumental backing track to get it out of the way of the vocal. I also used more compression which was suggested. The other was I was using a vocal i had got done that I had used for the same song in a completely different genre which didnt suit.A smaller issue but relevant Thanks for the detailed advice and i will post my song for a listen as soon as its ready h

Re: Advice on Vocal Production 90 dB #697361 01/10/22 05:48 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Bob Reccomendations are always the best buys,so I will look it up and check out what it can do, Thanks for the advice H

Re: Advice on Vocal Production rharv #697364 01/10/22 05:51 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Rharv I did put some more compression and it did help a good bit thanks. My main problem was I was using the wrong panning modes in Reaper for stereo tracks and that I had re adjust my reverb on my reverb channel, thanks for the repy appreciated h

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Sundance #697367 01/10/22 05:52 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland H Hugh2 OP Journeyman
OP Hugh2 Journeyman H Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 470 Ireland	Hi Sundance Will drop a sample of the song when its finished for a listen and some feedback thanks for the help H

Re: Advice on Vocal Production Hugh2 #697455 01/10/22 12:37 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,383 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,383 Mi., USA	Originally Posted By: Hugh2 Hi Rharv I did put some more compression and it did help a good bit thanks. My main problem was I was using the wrong panning modes in Reaper for stereo tracks and that I had re adjust my reverb on my reverb channel, thanks for the repy appreciated h For vocals, compression helps to get it out front .. the panning method/mode helps to focus/define it Do you want the vocals to sound out front in a big room, or sound like the vocalist is intimately close to the listener? That's the fun of mixing For me, vocals usually go on a Mono track, not stereo, and that avoids some problems early If you have a stereo track, you may want to try making it Mono and see if it becomes easier I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

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