PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Old music is killing new music…

Zappa was a self-taught traditional composer whose primary creative outlet was writing orchestral music he would never hear on sheets of music paper, from when he was a kid to the day he died. The whole rock n' roll thing was a money-making sideshow for him, and he relished holding his audiences in contempt – though he did grudgingly accept the respect of the classical community in the end.

He is absolutely in a class by himself.

Wow, Mark and I agree on something! <grin>

I had an instructor who also worked with Lyle Mays (and others)
He told me Lyle would sit in math class writing music and turn it in for extra credit
Musicians are gifted in a unique way, usually not appreciated as much as they should be

and yes, Zappa was a very unique talent
We need more like him
Now if you'll excuse me I'm moving to Montana to raise me a crop of dental floss

You Zombie Woof you!!!

Amen to that unless things have radically changed since 2020. When we were living on generator after the hurricanes all we had was a battery powered radio and it was downright shocking just how bad the country stations here had become.

Btw, I like Gone West Colbie Collait's country band that only lasted that same year. But never heard it on the radio. So yeah I have to agree with Herb.

Josie

Stock, Aitken and Waterman.

Mass-produced inconsequential music that primed the pump for the music industry's algorithms and neo-identikit output, exacerbated and amplified by video games and the likes of TikTok and the 'like' button.

The likes of Amazon give recommendations based on what I've bought in the past.
I also like to listen to music that differs from what I've bought in the past.
It's mostly self-fulfilling, lowest common denominator evolution.

Old music doesn't kill new music.
There's good new music out there.
It's mostly swamped out by worse than mediocrity.

Very Interesting article
Only time can filter the 95% of music which is mostly rubbish from every era. I am hesitant to critize New music because it has not yet had this time filtering benefit.
Is Old music killing New music ? I doubt it. We Boomers had music but not much else to waste our readies on.
That is no longer the case with Gen Z and Millennials . Internet ,Netflix, Virtual Reality huge TV screens, Social Media , Mobile Phones, Computers, Video Games etc etc. It's a wonder Music gets a look in at all!

Maybe Bob Seger said it best
"Just take those old records off the shelf
I'll sit and listen to 'em by myself
Today's music ain't got the same soul
I like that old time rock 'n' roll"

Yes, there is good music being made today, and yes there have always been bad music on the charts. But in the past, the young people's music out-sold the music of their parents and grandparents by a huge percentage.

Older generations are always nostalgic about the music they grew up with. But they aren't top40 oriented and have other things that demand their money. They don't need to buy the newest _______ album. (Add a star's name in the blanks.)

I don't think nostalgia about 'our' music is the problem here. On my weekly gig, which is in a restaurant on a public beach in Florida, I meet a number of young people liking the music I play for the Baby-Boomer generation.

When gigging at retirement homes, and they bring their grandchildren to the gig, I see the same thing.

When talking to them, I ask them why, and they say they like it better than today's music.

This surprises me. When I was young, nobody listened to their parent's or grandparent's music and said they like it better.

As a musician, I liked my parent's music a lot, but it wasn't something I would tell in the presence of other young folks my age. But then I like the good songs (re the ones that tickle me) from any generation. I know, I'm weird.

I'm not fond of rap. Music to me has melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap is void of melody and it bores me. However, a good song with a rap verse in the middle is fine with me. Does the loss of melody make the music more disposable and less of something to own?

I hear a lot of new music that has been overly auto-tuned and overly compressed, which sucks the emotion out of it. Analyzing the song, it could be a good song, but the production drained the expression out of it.

Could these factors be the reason?

Or could it just be that for most of the latter 2/3 of the 20th century, the music made for your people was their private world, their escape, their emerging from their parents' generation and their identity.

Young folks always enjoyed the fact that their music was offensive to their parents. It was a safe rebellion. After all it is the child's duty to rebel, if they didn't progress would be slower. We need new thought.

The parent's hated the Beatles' hair and their music. Their parent's hated Elvis and his gyrations, and so on. In an interview, In an interview, Vince (Alice Cooper) said he thought about what would make the parents hate him because that would endear him to his generation. Giving himself a girl's name and at first having the band dress up like females did the trick.

Music was the identity of the generation, and it was their "private club" where their parents weren't welcome.

Today, the constantly changing social media sites, that change as soon as their parents find them, might be their private coming of age world. This could be serving the function that Sinatra, Elvis, and The Beatles did for those generations.

If so, that leaves the music of today still being entertaining, but not nearly as important as it was in the past. The effort that earlier generations put into their music is now being put into the latest social media site for the youthful and not their parents. Could this be it?

Again, just thinking out loud. I really don't know. I'm just pondering.

I think this from the article says it for me:



Yep. So much of it is just lazy, hoping that the app or machine is going to do the work.

Where's the spark? creativity? inspiration? What about this song makes anyone else in the world give a damn enough to want to listen?

Too often, the answer is "Nothing".

Personally, the article was a bit all over for me.



When I see numbers like below, it makes me wonder. If so many older songs are 95% of what's being streamed, I would think at least SOME of them would be in the top streams. Where are they? Maybe in the next 100, as he did say 200 and this list only went to 100. That has GOT to be it!

[list]
[*]Spotify Playlist Top 100 Most-Streamed Songs
MUSIC STREAMS
1. Ed Sheeran – Shape of You 3,010,016,624
2. The Weeknd – Blinding Lights 2,717,637,809
3. Tones And I – Dance Monkey 2,447,109,432
4. Post Malone, 21 Savage – rockstar 2,327,380,175
5. Lewis Capaldi – Someone You Loved 2,208,058,599
6. Drake – One Dance 2,197,605,360
7. The Chainsmokers ft. Halsey – Closer 2,179,670,384
8. Post Malone and Swae Lee – Sunflower 2,142,475,987
9. Shawn Mendes and Camila Cabello – Señorita 2,028,122,653
10. Billie Eilish – Bad Guy 1,955,372,652
11. Imagine Dragons – Believer 1,938,551,409
12. Ed Sheeran – Perfect 1,936,629,368
13. James Arthur – Say You Won’t Let Go 1,915,378,320
14. Ed Sheeran – Thinking Out Loud 1,910,497,634
15. Drake – God’s Plan 1,864,955,169
16. Juice WRLD – Lucid Dreams 1,843,240,180
17. Ed Sheeran – Photograph 1,765,589,565
18. Dua Lipa – Don’t Start Now 1,749,733,943
19. XXXTENTACION – SAD! 1,738,812,732
20. The Weeknd feat Daft Punk – Starboy 1,726,096,320
21. The Chainsmokers & Coldplay – Something Just Like This 1,708,221,559
22. Justin Bieber – Love Yourself 1,699,396,871
23. Camila Cabello featuring Young Thug – Havana 1,694,183,474
24. Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper – Shallow 1,692,872,283
25. Queen – Bohemian Rhapsody – 2011 Mix 1,688,375,868
26. John Legend – All of Me 1,654,116,839
27. Billie Eilish and Khalid – Lovely 1,648,836,214
28. Imagine Dragons – Thunder 1,637,115,056
29. Ariana Grande – 7 Rings 1,630,819,335
30. XXXTENTACION – Jocelyn Flores 1,621,492,607
31. Hozier – Take Me To Church 1,618,694,109
32. Post Malone – Circles 1,618,200,140
33. Dua Lipa – New Rules 1,617,499,811
34. Travis Scott – Goosebumps 1,615,717,932
35. Lil Uzi Vert – XO TOUR Llif3 1,610,156,500
36. Marshmallow featuring Bastille – Happier 1,577,877,986
37. Travis Scott, Drake – Sicko Mode 1,572,636,429
38. Harry Styles – Watermelon Sugar 1,569,967,105
39. Major Lazer & DJ Snake (feat. MO) – Lean On 1,564,657,570
40. Twenty One Pilots – Stressed Out 1,563,736,343
41. Justin Bieber – Sorry 1,553,578,265
42. Kendrick Lamar – HUMBLE. 1,543,591,430
43. Post Malone – Better Now 1,523,084,077
44. Passenger – Let Her Go 1,509,148,549
45. The Chainsmokers ft. Daya – Don’t Let Me Down 1,504,111,918
46. Luis Fonsi, Daddy Yankee ft.Justin Bieber–Despacito (Remix) 1,503,234,258
47. Alan Walker – Faded 1,500,580,561
48. DJ Snake – Let Me Love You 1,500,003,118
49. SAINt JHN and Imanbek – Roses Imanbek (Remix) 1,495,870,365
50. Post Malone, Quavo – Congratulations 1,488,713,147
51. Mike Posner – I Took A Pill In Ibiza – SeeB Remix 1,479,958,176
52. Avicii – Wake Me Up 1,467,702,818
53. Sam Smith – Stay With Me 1,461,551,669
54. Ed Sheeran and Justin Bieber – I Don’t Care 1,456,979,641
55. Shawn Mendes – Treat You Better 1,448,187,761
56. Ariana Grande – Thank U, Next 1,443,418,052
57. OneRepublic – Counting Stars 1,435,011,986
58. Mark Ronson, Bruno Mars – Uptown Funk 1,431,361,132
59. Halsey – Without Me 1,427,798,289
60. Vance Joy – Riptide 1,409,640,661
61. Sam Smith – Too Good at Goodbyes 1,407,363,112
62. The Weeknd – The Hills 1,401,100,609
63. Macklemore & Ryan Lewis featuring Ray Dalton–Can’t Hold Us 1,400,591,862
64. French Montana, Swae Lee – Unforgettable 1,392,512,731
65. Roddy Ricch – The Box 1,390,727,805
66. Shawn Mendes – Stitches 1,385,660,570
67. Sia – Cheap Thrills 1,374,829,183
68. Maroon 5 featuring Cardi B – Girls Like You 1,373,293,870
69. XXXTentacion – Moonlight 1,365,073,935
70. Maroon 5 – Memories 1,355,161,480
71. 24kGoldn – Mood (feat. iann dior) 1,337,929,713
72. Lukas Graham – 7 Years 1,335,888,242
73. Luis Fonsi ft Daddy Yankee – Despacito 1,334,474,805
74. Bruno Mars – That’s What I Like 1,332,045,969
75. Imagine Dragons – Demons 1,323,119,588
76. Cardi B featuring Bad Bunny and J Balvin – I Like It 1,317,451,690
77. Justin Timberlake – CAN’T STOP THE FEELING! 1,314,302,473
78. Wiz Khalifa ft. Charlie Puth – See You Again 1,314,484,373
79. Lauv – I Like Me Better 1,314,046,042
80. The Killers – Mr. Brightside 1,305,883,057
81. Oasis – Wonderwall 1,302,277,625
82. The Kid LAROI – STAY (with Justin Bieber) 1,300,683,800
83. Twenty One Pilots – Heathens 1,298,552,235
84. Post Malone – I Fall Apart 1,297,832,631
85. Calvin Harris and Dua Lipa – One Kiss 1,296,972,472
86. 5 Seconds Of Summer – Youngblood 1,294,269,182
87. Jason Mraz – I’m Yours 1,284,573,599
88. Maroon 5 – Sugar 1,280,869,572
89. Eminem – Lose Youself 1,271,428,985
90. Imagine Dragons – Radioactive 1,270,964,296
91. Billie Eilish – when the party’s over 1,269,236,052
92. Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus – Old Town Road (Remix) 1,266,181,239
93. Charlie Puth – Attention 1,260,202,193
94. Justin Bieber – What Do You Mean? 1,258,460,061
95. Benny Blanco, Halsey and Khalid – Eastside 1,256,738,542
96. Post Malone featuring Ty Dolla Sign – Psycho 1,255,643,161
97. Charlie Puth (feat. Selena Gomez) – We Don’t Talk Anymore 1,254,261,900
98. Major Lazer (feat. Justin Bieber & MO) – Cold Water 1,244,308,374
99. OMI – Cheerleader – Felix Jaehn Remix Radio Edit 1,243,363,912
100. The Weeknd – Can’t Feel My Face 1,238,157,612



I'm not a big fan of anecdotal evidence either. I'm not sure it's a phenomenon as much as common business sense. I don't know of too many retail stores or or local diners that are pumping out songs full of F bombs and the N word. Just saying. They usually stay with what's safe. Plus typically the person behind the cash register or the server isn't picking the music being played.

I guess, by that logic, kids of today don't like older music. I was at the credit union the day after Meatloaf's death and an account manager was telling me how several of the younger tellers had never heard or heard of "Paradise by the Dashboard Light." Is that proof? Personally, I don't think so. But I'm sure I could find plenty of "evidence" to support it.

Anyway, I get I am BY FAR in the minority here. There are A LOT of people who DO connect with the music being made today. There is plenty of todays, and yesterdays music I don't care for. I'm not big on discounting other people for liking it anyway. lol

I'm glad you shared the article as you always seem to share something that makes me think. I appreciate that Bud. I'm not seeing as much Bluegrass on that chart as I would like to either.

Regarding that 5% of streaming and the statement from Rick that songs older than 18 months are considered old, it isn't really surprising that new songs get only that 5% as there are many, many, thousands of other songs out there. They may get only 10k streams each, but the sum total of their streams will be huge.

I guess it's my demographic, but I looked through that top 100 and could only say "Oh yes, that song" to a dozen or so of them. I recognise quite a few of the artistes and like at least some of what they play, but could put a tune to the name of the songs? Mostly no.

I'm not wholly sure whether that says more about me or about the songs.

Actually that makes perfect sense!

I didn't watch the Rick video, so didn't realize what an "old" song is defined as. As it turns out, a lot of songs on the list I posted are oldies after all.

As it turns out, I have a good amount of what might be considered classic pop, classic country, and classic nu-metal from 2020 that I still listen to.

If I'm really feeling nostalgic, I'll reach back to 2019 and maybe play something like "One Thing Right" by Marshmello and Kane Brown. My youngest, who is 15, was just 13 back then. But to think that even at 13, he was listening to the real classic country of Luke Combs, Dan and Shay, and Thomas Rhett. He still remembers the songs very well too! In fact, he's always complaining how country music isn't what it used to be. I get it. I TOTALLY get it.

Seriously though, I don't think there ever will be a time that the top 200 streamed songs will outpace, ALL music from the all of the rest of time. Do you?

I would have to also say, it would be a complete reach to say old music is killing new music. Although, you may have additional information to change my mind.

I also feel as though the article played into the biases we all have about what "good music" is.

Thanks for the response. I love to learn, and you're perspective was much appreciated!

I think that the answer to that question and statement will be directly proportional to the age of the person answering. YMMV

There's the old joke about a kid being in a record store saying "I didn't know Paul McCartney was in another band before Wings." That seems to fit here.

Now factor in how much more present music is in 2022 than that 50s when we were kids. Spotify, Pandora, iHeart Radio, music stations on your TV provider, 150+ stations streaming 24/7 on Sirius/XM...

Factor in the jump in the amount of listening when kids start driving around 16 and hear the radio the whole time. Then to that add in that we didn't have satellite radio and we just had the few stations that weren't talk radio to choose from. I remember how we thought it was so cool that we could get CKLW from Detroit even though they played exactly what our WMMS and WIXY played. Remember how cool it was when FM became available and there were "underground" programs with deep dive album cuts? Here it was Doc Nemo who did a show at 10pm Sunday night that opened up with Seger's "Heavy Music". That was the only place we could hear Hendrix, Cream, Spencer Davis and the like.

So, point here is this. I am 70. "My" music came from the late 50s, the 60s and just nosed into the 70s. A kid who is 18 now was born in 2002/2003. That's 40 years after that 16 year old kid in Cleveland laid in bed with his earphone plugged in every Sunday night at 10pm. Unless that kid born in 2002/2003 had parents who played music all day because TV, with the 3 channels available, was "a fad" in the late 50s. For perspective, when I was home of a leave during my Army years in like late 1970, my parents still had a 14 inch black and white TV. I went out and bought them a 21 inch color TV so I could watch the last televised Browns game before going back. That kid born in 2002/2003 had 200 channels of cable and high end video games to distract him. Their primary entertainment was NOT music. Also factor in that the instruments of the time when my age group was young were one step above when the cavemen had when they strung a piece of a plant onto a bowed stick when compared to even what I played in the 80s. And now? With so much music of today being an 8 bar loop that repeats for 3:34 with somebody speaking bad beat poetry (ask your parents about the beatnik coffee-house artsy-fartsy types) the level of the music performance has declined badly. The SHOWS are way better with the dancing, the lights, the explosions... In older days bands stood by their mic and played and sang. (I remember reading an interview with George Harrison saying "We used to munch cheese rolls and buns on stage between songs. Those were the wild days." Wild? Iggy Pop once stabbed himself on stage. Ozzy bit the head off a bat. Alice Cooper used to use snakes and chain saws as props. Marilyn Manson was Alice Cooper on steroids. Contrast that to The Eagles, who did nothing more than stand by their mics and sing those beautiful harmonies.)

So yes, Mr Mario has it right. It is generational. I suggest it is also cultural. Different times in society are different levels of accepting. Listen to the lyrics in rap music that the people are perfectly fine with. Now if you are not of a certain age, ask your parents or grandparents about All In The Family and Sanford and Son on TYV in the 70s. Ask if the think those shows would be aired today in the snowflake society where everybody is so sensitive.

I don't follow on this point. Why would it be?

My intent with the post was not to encourage a "I hate old music" or "I love new music" scenario.
Although I had my popcorn and easy chair on standby

"The 200 most popular new tracks now regularly account for less than 5 percent of total streams.
That rate was twice as high just three years ago. "

His early on statement as quoted above was what most caught my attention. Sure millions upon millions of older tunes are going to be listened to by an aging population. I get that. But IMHO the most significant statement is that the percent of total streams for new tracks has reduced by 50% in three years -- irrespective of it being but 5% of the total. Perhaps a statistical aberration but if that trend were to continue then it would be a game changer. You can halve an already low data point a few times and it doesn't take long to reach virtually nothing. That would appear not to portend well for new releases of any genre.

Boatloads of salt grains and FWIW's. Guess I'm hounded by my graduate days in research design - which oughta make me dig into the research and stats behind his charts ...nah!

Bud

Mine either. I was simply trying to approach it from a numbers perspective. Not knowing what was consider new verses old, I gained much understanding. I was surprised to say the least. The funny thing is, I'm not sure I could have given you a definitive explanation of what "old" or "new" would be. At least, now I have a reference to how some of this is determined. It's one reason why I so appreciated the post. I took me a while to respond because I didn't want to get butter on my keyboard.

"The 200 most popular new tracks now regularly account for less than 5 percent of total streams.
That rate was twice as high just three years ago. "



An absolutely great point in my opinion! I may be WAY off on this. Here is where my confusion is song from 3 years ago are being counted in that number. Now, are 1/2 of those songs (18 months plus) also being counted in the "old songs" category as well? I'm not sure if that point is clear as mud?




Is the salt for the popcorn? Nice! You think of everything!

Appreciate the post Bud!

-C

I don't know. I can't wrap my head around statistics like these, but it does seem like all this data is so recent. Did music really start to die 3 years ago? What happened 3 years ago? Cardi B? No, it can't be Cardi B because oops, much of her stuff is over 3 years old, which makes it no longer "new" and has her moving into "oldies" territory, according to the way things are categorized here.

The author also moves very quickly from statistical analysis with charts to an "I encountered this phenomenon myself" anecdote which meaninglessly documents the existence of a record store employee who likes The Police. (Come on, man!)

What I wonder about is: what's it like for a young, aspiring pop musician in 2022 who wants to play new music, as opposed to a YAPMWWTPNW in 1962? Setting out to be a professional rock n' roll musician in 1962 was a pretty dicey affair, best not to quit your day job. How is that different today? Harder, easier, crazier, smarter? The Beatles needed instruments and places to play, Billie Eilish (and her brother) can make hits in her bedroom in Logic Pro. Never mind good or bad music: what advice would a wise career counsellor offer?

If performing music is in your heart and soul I would suggest running from a career counselor I bet the all time hits lists would look a lot different had such counsel been sought and adhered to by many of the artists.

It's curious how musical journeys can differ. I've often heard that people's taste in music is defined by what they heard in their teens.

I was born in '52. Up into my mid-teens I really wasn't impressed by much of the new music of the time. There was some "good stuff", but mostly I listened to "classical" music. In the late 60s I started discovering the "progressive rock" bands and my tastes moved towards them. By the mid 70s, I was moving again, now towards soul, then jazz-funk, then jazz. But on the way I'd also discovered African-oriented styles; Osibisa, reggae. Then more fusion sounds, AfroCelt Sound System, Gotan Project, Salif Keita, Baaba Maal, Abdulla Ibrahim, Radio Tarrifa, Rap; then I pulled in some earlier stuff ... Buena Vista Social Club, jazz standards & the American songbook.

So I wonder what percentage of people are really defined by the music their formative years, or whether our "formative years" actually go on right up until until we finally check out.