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How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? #707410 03/04/22 07:45 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	I'm struggling a bit to see how best to handle this, so I'll describe the problem and see what ideas/methods/tricks might be feasible. I want to use an instruments with a narrow note range like octaves, the notes of which may also be shifted by one or more octaves, sometimes diatonic or pentatonic. I rather suspect there's no easy solution, though user-styles and/or harmonies may help. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707434 03/04/22 09:57 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY	What I do in cases like this is to go to the piano roll view and transpose those out of range notes into a instruments range. If the entire track is out of range then I transpose said track by an octave; I have to do this every time when I use an Ample bass as my sound source. You should be able to highlight an out of range note, say a C4, and bring them down or up to an in the range note, say a C5 or a C3. Or you could change them to another in range note. It isn't that hard and once you get use to it it does go very quickly. Note that I do this in my DAW. OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it? 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? MarioD #707445 03/04/22 11:55 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: MarioD What I do in cases like this is to go to the piano roll view and transpose those out of range notes into a instruments range. If the entire track is out of range then I transpose said track by an octave; I have to do this every time when I use an Ample bass as my sound source. You should be able to highlight an out of range note, say a C4, and bring them down or up to an in the range note, say a C5 or a C3. Or you could change them to another in range note. It isn't that hard and once you get use to it it does go very quickly. Note that I do this in my DAW. Hi Mario, I've been doing the same for Roots Upright Bass, probably for the same reasons. Mostly I can just shift it up an octave instead of down, though there are a couple or so notes at the top end that RUB doesn't have. I've been doing it in BiaB, but am coming to the conclusion that getting a decent outline/basis in BiaB and then transferring to DAW may well be better. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707459 03/04/22 01:15 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Gordon, are you using a VSTi in BIAB? And if so, are you saying BIAB has notes that are outside of the playable range of your chosen instrument? BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707483 03/04/22 04:09 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2017 Posts: 3,007 BC Ember - PG Music PG Music Staff
Ember - PG Music PG Music Staff Joined: Jun 2017 Posts: 3,007 BC	Hi there! On top of Matt's query above, it'd be helpful to know what version of Band-in-a-Box you're using as well! Cheers, Ember

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Ember - PG Music #707500 03/04/22 06:19 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,093 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,093 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: Ember - PG Music Hi there! On top of Matt's query above, it'd be helpful to know what version of Band-in-a-Box you're using as well! I'm pretty sure that Gordon is using the BIAB2022 UltraPAK (it's in his signature ) BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707523 03/05/22 01:27 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley Gordon, are you using a VSTi in BIAB? And if so, are you saying BIAB has notes that are outside of the playable range of your chosen instrument? Hi Matt, Yes. Thete's no criticiasm of BiaB here. These are constraints of the instruments and therefore mostly my problem. I now have several VSTis that have unusually limited ranges, perhaps 1.5 or two octaves, and some are diatonic. I'd like to be able to constrain BiaB to play only notes that the instrument has. Looking through styles, I think that most diatonic instruments are on RealTracks, which alone may andswer my question, though a few are on MIDI. All instruments have some limits on note range, many to three octaves from a particular note and BiaB handles that perfectly sensibly, so there must be a mechanism to constraining the range. I suspect thats done using Style and or Harmony data, though that's an area I have yet to properly explore. Hi Ember, Yes, BiaB 2022 918. The question is definitely valid, though, as I do sometimes run different versions on different PCs. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707525 03/05/22 01:58 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,093 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,093 Melbourne, Australia	Thanks Gordon for explaining the problem further. I wasn't exactly sure of the detail of the issue, but now I completely understand. BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707528 03/05/22 02:24 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	I don’t use VSTi instruments in BIAB, only in a DAW, but I thought I recognized what was being said here because I’ve experienced it in a DAW. I had one piccolo trumpet that would not quite go as high as it is possible to play, for example the top note of Penny Lane. Of course in a DAW you can edit the offending notes and change their register or delete them as needed, but in my example this wouldn’t give a good result without that top note. Other than editing the MIDI tracks in BIAB and freezing the tracks, I don’t know how to limit the playable range. There is a setting for the lowest note of the bass track, but that’s it, and no limiter on the upper range. I wonder if this problem is widespread? How many people have a VSTi with serious range limits? Is it enough to warrant a Wishlist request to add range limits for each track in BIAB? BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707545 03/05/22 03:56 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley ................. I wonder if this problem is widespread? How many people have a VSTi with serious range limits? Is it enough to warrant a Wishlist request to add range limits for each track in BIAB? Yes this problem is widespread. AFAIK all good MIDI sound sources are either limited or very close to the actual range of the instrument it is emulating. I have VSTis that range from one octave to a few octaves. The problem comes in when one composes in GM. All GM sounds that I have seen use the entire keyboard, thus you could be writing out of the instruments actual range. That is why I only compose in my DAW using a VSTi that has the chosen instrument's actual range. Incorporating said limits in BiaB would be nice but IMHO there are other things that should be done in BiaB first. Plus it would be a tremendous task having limits on over 100 instruments. The solution, or current workaround, is write MIDI tracks in your DAW. YMMV OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it? 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707557 03/05/22 04:50 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley I wonder if this problem is widespread? How many people have a VSTi with serious range limits? Is it enough to warrant a Wishlist request to add range limits for each track in BIAB? I think it may be. Part of my reason for asking, of course. I'm primarily a jazz enthusiast and beginner, but an awful lot of my influences have come from Africa and Latin America, some from Asia, some through a European lens ... I like the Iberia/Moorish mixes, for example. So some of my choices for instruments come from those cultures, some of my scales are influenced by those cultures. I do note that at least some of those play an adjacent diatonic note when a the instrument does not have the chromatic note. I also see that some have a chromatic scale on the VSTi even though the instrument proper does not. Some of the VSTis also have articulations or musical phrases that play in response to out-of-range keys. It would seem to me that a means to constrain the range of notes for an instrument and/or channel may be very useful. I'm a little less sure that constraining to a scale is necessarily so helpful ... I was prompted to ask the question whilst experimenting with a Bolon VSTi, which is an African accompaniment instrument with only three or four notes ... and that would surely appear a constraint too far. :-) Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? MarioD #707562 03/05/22 04:58 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: MarioD Incorporating said limits in BiaB would be nice but IMHO there are other things that should be done in BiaB first. Plus it would be a tremendous task having limits on over 100 instruments. The solution, or current workaround, is write MIDI tracks in your DAW. YMMV I largely concur other than I would visualise range constrained by track rather than by instrument ... I think trying to do it per-instrument could be a never-ending task. Edit ... with VSTis, there's always the option of generating the MIDI by playing or importing, so there are already ways to do this. But I figured others may already have methods that I could borrow. Last edited by Gordon Scott; 03/05/22 05:01 AM. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707567 03/05/22 05:54 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	So, for this to work in BIAB, it couldn’t be automated. You would have to know already what the range of the instrument is, then set the limit on that one track so BIAB doesn’t exceed it? It should be possible in MIDI. They already do it for bass. Related, back to my case involving the piccolo trumpet. I discovered the vendor limited the upper range in an index, and I just went in and hacked the index. It turns out they provided the sound of that high note in their library, but they didn’t expect anyone to use it! I can just barely hit that highest note in Penny Lane, and I only play piccolo trumpet at Christmas. If someone practices that little beast of an instrument regularly, they could own that note, and a composer like me should be able to write it. BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707587 03/05/22 09:20 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley So, for this to work in BIAB, it couldn’t be automated. You would have to know already what the range of the instrument is, then set the limit on that one track so BIAB doesn’t exceed it? It should be possible in MIDI. They already do it for bass. That's as I see it if it were done, though template instruments would also be a possibility. I supect PGM probably already have something of this sort internally to BiaB, as otherwise we'd likely sometimes have extraordinarily hear notes from trombones or extraordinarily low note from clarinets. Whether it is, could be, or should be user accessible is another matter. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707593 03/05/22 09:46 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley So, for this to work in BIAB, it couldn’t be automated. You would have to know already what the range of the instrument is, then set the limit on that one track so BIAB doesn’t exceed it? It should be possible in MIDI. They already do it for bass. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is not so. Go to the piano roll view in Biab and you can raise a bass as high as you want, thus taking it way out of a normal bass's range. Originally Posted By: Matt Finley Related, back to my case involving the piccolo trumpet. I discovered the vendor limited the upper range in an index, and I just went in and hacked the index. It turns out they provided the sound of that high note in their library, but they didn’t expect anyone to use it! I can just barely hit that highest note in Penny Lane, and I only play piccolo trumpet at Christmas. If someone practices that little beast of an instrument regularly, they could own that note, and a composer like me should be able to write it. I'm glad you figured that out and got it working the way you want it to work. OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it? 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707605 03/05/22 10:39 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Hi Mario. I agree, there is no upper limit on the bass in BIAB and you can create some awkward sounds. I was referring only to the setting for lowest bass note. I’m assuming that since they have that, other limits could be added including upper limits. BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? MarioD #707615 03/05/22 12:45 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott OP Veteran
OP Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted By: MarioD ... can raise a bass as high as you want, thus taking it way out of a normal bass's range. If PGM were to enable a constraint, I would anticipate it would affect only auto-generation, not notes one might manually enter or adjust. To constrain auto-generated notes sounds(!) fairly easy; to meaningfully stop people manually adjusting notes sounds much more complex and, to be honest, probably counter-productive. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Matt Finley #707632 03/05/22 03:06 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Matt Finley Hi Mario. I agree, there is no upper limit on the bass in BIAB and you can create some awkward sounds. I was referring only to the setting for lowest bass note. I’m assuming that since they have that, other limits could be added including upper limits. Good point Matt but having limits could be a problem for bass, guitar, and other instruments. PGM guitar and bass notes are based on the actual notation. However many guitar and bass VSTis require the notes to be in guitar and bass notation; that is one octave higher than the actual sound. That is why I have to raise BiaB's bass lines up one octave when using Ample sound and other bass VSTis. If PGM raised their notes an octave higher then it wouldn't sound correct in their GM sound source. Its a catch 22 IMHO. OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it? 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707633 03/05/22 03:16 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,702 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott Originally Posted By: MarioD ... can raise a bass as high as you want, thus taking it way out of a normal bass's range. If PGM were to enable a constraint, I would anticipate it would affect only auto-generation, not notes one might manually enter or adjust. To constrain auto-generated notes sounds(!) fairly easy; to meaningfully stop people manually adjusting notes sounds much more complex and, to be honest, probably counter-productive. Good points but PGM has to be consistent with GM sound sources. The problem happens when you drop BiaB MIDI files into a DAW and select a non-GM sound source. Like I just mentioned in my message to Matt PGM write bass notes by actual notation but many bass sound sources expect those MIDI notes to be in bass notation, that is one octave higher. BiaB sounds OK when using a GM sound source but the problem occurs when using a non-GM sound source in your DAW. I don't know how PGM can correct for that as there are many different sound sources available. OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it? 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How can one manage instruments with unusual note ranges? Gordon Scott #707634 03/05/22 03:16 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,566 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I had to adjust the bass for SWAM bass which played it an octave too low, so I know what you mean. BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

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